Wayze

I don't think you are around here a long time. You know, people call the situation that players kill each other for fun in DayZ "deathmatching". Is it that hard to realise that words can have more than one meaning? Seriously? And EVEN IF. You know EXACTLY what I meant by deathmatching. The fact that you take words and try to give them another meaning than I have intended, is showing me that you have no arguments at all against any of my "flawed" logic that is "based" on my opinion.

I think the "problem" we are all talking about here is that DayZ has many, many players who play the game to shoot each other. I don't have anything against PvP or KoS, but if a game is so boring that 90% of the people have the only purpose to go and hunt fresh spawns on the coast, I really doubt the concept of DayZ as it is now. Yes, it's alpha and bla, but the mod has 100 times as much content and resulted in as much PvP as the SA. It's just that once you are geared up, there is nothing else to do in the game but shooting each other. Ask yourself, what are we even collecting all the gear for? To shoot each other. And why do we do that? Because there is no other point in the game. There is no progress other than gear. Once you have a good weapon you can go and do as much deathmatching as you want. Why would you do something else?

Are you kidding me? Seriously? You gotta be trolling me. You know exactly what I meant by deathmatching: People go around shoot each other for fun. This is deathmatching. Shooting each other because of fun, not to survive. I think you just try to make me sound like an idiot, but in fact you don't even get the meaning of "deathmatching". And people expect me to take them serious... :lol:

My title is actually a way to provocate people like you to read my text. Did work. No, we have not at all talked about this: over many pages. Actually, I just brought a new viewpoint to the discussion, which was not reviewed before. So just tell me what is so wrong about all of this? I don't get it and I am suprised that a guy, who probably has never designed or developed a game himself, is telling me that I am totally wrong and that everything is just an opinion. I tried to bring logic to the discussion. Something we can base on which is not just an opinion. You cannot denie human psychology and many years of game design. My recent point is: Deathmatching is a result of DayZs fundamental concept. And in the last post I tried to explain it to someone who maybe never once had anything to do with game design. It's really not that hard to understand. But maybe there is indeed a mistake in my logic. Just point it out. Don't tell me I have no idea about anything, here you have the perfect chance to prove it.

This is too good. I have actually evidence (DayZ Mod, DayZ SA Alpha) and actually argument with common logic and you just tell me "your concept is flawed, you are wrong, idiot". Sorry, but if you have no arguments against any of my points, it will be just an further attempt to basicly say that you don't care what I write. I am pretty sure you didn't even read it with attention. You seem stubborn, not once I saw you arguing against my "concepts" (which are almost "laws" in game design) with other than "You are wrong and your opinion totally just an opinion and you are wrong and nobody sees it lke you because you are wrong. Btw. you are wrong.". Yes, yes. I know. I am wrong. But why? Maybe you can explain to me what is so flawed about the concept of game design rules and human psychology. This is the point of the forum. Making each other understand. Not saying " You are wrong man!". No offense...

It's simple game design, this is how a human mind works generally: I play a game to have fun (fun includes accomplishments, reward, expiriences etc.). How do you have fun in games: Progress (this is where most of the games have their main selling point, i.e. MMORPGS, F2P Games, Mobile Apps...) Expirience (having something to laugh/cry/be angry about, i.e. trolling others or ruining someones day by killing them, maybe have fun with some friends or having an intense firefight) How do you have fun in DayZ? Progress: -collecting gear, building houses Expirience: -interaction with players Conclusion: If gear is collected/base is build, only way to have fun is interacting with players. Most favorable player interaction -> deathmatch Why? -> deathmatch brings the most psychological reward, killing other players who compete in the same world is bringing joy (this is something you cannot denie, it may not be the case for everyone, but for most of the players it is) Solutions? Adding aspects of progress. -> only way to do it is adding weapons, vehicles etc. What does that mean? Players demand cooler weapons, more exciting things -> results in absolute unauthentic worlddesign (military weapons everywhere, planes, helicopters, etc. just to satisfy the human urge for more and more excitement) Additional problems: -> the more a player has made a certain progress (for example found the best weapon), he will usually be less attracted to the progress What does that mean for DayZ? A player who had the best weapons, vehicles etc a thousand times will not care about them anymore Why? He knows that in the end he collects the weapons to have expirience (progress for expirience), shortcut: -> collect minimal gear (minimal progress) to reach maximal joy (maximal expirience), meaning simple deathmatch/trolling people Solution? Try to make gear rare. -> progress (collecting good loot) is based on pure luck What effect has luck to a player? -> in regards of having to have luck to find something that you will lose eventually a player will always choose expirience over luck Result: -> deathmatch (reasons where brought before) -> players stop playing the game You want evidence for all of this? Look at the game. It has nothing to do with the mod, is has absolutly nothing to do with the game being an alpha. It has to do with the CORE concept of the game. Mate, this is science based on statistics, psychology and game design. If you want the game to not be a deathmatch, you simple will need another kind of progression sooner or later.

It's not me who wants that, it's basicly most of the players (in the observable community) who want that. The skillsystem is just one idea of how to change the situation. But we all know (except of you and some others) that the situation needs to change. The reward of real life survival is staying alive. Simple as that. The only way to simulate this is to add character value. Many people do have, but most of the veterans do not fear because they don't give a f*ck about gear anymore. Sure there is some fear, but not the old times. If you have a value that increases by the effort you put in, even a veteran will piss himself if confronted with death. What do you mean, what is my idea for a skill system?

Not sure what you mean. The basic element of real life survival is the will not to die. It's not the will not to lose the gear. This is in my opinion the main problem with DayZ. It's all about the gear. In real life you use gear to keep your life. In DayZ you survive to keep your gear. This results in very unauthentic behaviour. It results in boring endgame. It results in no point of simple survival. (you cannot enjoy running around town without a weapon and simply surviving, because there is no reward, no progress and no point, compare it to real life and there is a reward, progress and a point) It results in players hunting for fun because gear is everything they can obtain. It makes the game simply worse. I want to people hunt other to survive. I want people to kill each other to survive. Not to keep their gear and not because of boredom. If there is character value, meaning that you don't want your character to die over "you don't want to lose the gear", people will act way more authentic. But the most important part, after surviving 100 hours you won't simply go and shoot other people because you have end gear. You will still try to survive because you don't want to lose the progress. YOu cannot store all the effort you put in the character. Death will have a whole other meaing to the game. And this is, in my opinion, the core of DayZ: The fear of death.

And you should drop down immediatly after shot by anything.

What example? What are you talking about? :huh: No, just no. Like I said, the problem is people don't get what is meant by skills, the most think of EXP and something like MMORPGs do. This is why they vote against (please bring some evidence, btw) such a system. Look at how many beans my post has and how many beans the posts of opponents have. Well, seems like skills win the game. (or atleast the urge to increase character value) Right and in real life you also equire skills. It is the most basic element of real life survival, actually. You may have the knowladge which you equire by books, but if you are sent on an island, it doesn't mean you will do even close as good as a veteran survival specialist.

You don't want to tell me that you need gear to survive. Get some cans of beans and soda and you are good to go forever. Weapons are entirely optional and only improve your chances for survival. It's not that I don't like your opinion, it's just that I think many many people dislike the idea of skills just because it sounds like it would turn the game into an RPG. But this is not true at all, as I am trying to tell you. My point was: Loot is a basic element of the game. Should we remove it because it's exploitable? No. Skills would be a basic element of the game (if implemented). Should we no include it because it's exploitable? No. Like I said, take the same example with bloodpacks. A hero will never steal blood from freshspawns. It is entirely restricted to the bandit playstyle. It drasticly unbalances the medical loot in the favor of bandits. Currently the game is NOT neutral when it comes to stuff like this. You know why it's not? Because in real life bandits will ALWAYS have the upperhand. It is LIFE. You will not change it. You won't get a millionaire by being nice. You won't survive an apocalypse by being nice. This is what you can choose. Acting by morality or doing whatever it needs to survive. The guy who takes option two is ALWAYS in advantage. People already abandon their ehtics and make loot their main objective. Don't you see it? Now THIS is what I am talking about. People just need to realise that the a proper skill system would increase the gameplay. Yes, it sounds scary. "Skills? This is not Skyrim you faggot!", and I was the same in the beginning. But if you really think about it, it's just benefitial for the game and the players, if implemented correctly.

Now just imagine the same situation with a guy, who has the SKILL to repair something. Same situation, guy says he is capable of repairing a helicopter. You go to him and you have no other choice but to group up with him (if you want a working helicopter). Do you believe him? Maybe he is lying? But what if he is telling you the truth? Do you want to risk it? Not just your life is valuable, but also the life of others, who have skills you need. Maybe you even save someones life, because he is capable of curing cancer (yeah, exaggeration)? What is better? The box or the skill? (you know yourself that nobody will trade, people will kill that guy, because it is the most simple and smart solution) Yes, I agree. Books. But then you can store them, which destroyes the purpose of permadeath. Like I said, either way. One way the books are really, really rare and the game is just unbalanced. Or they are common and skills are worth nothing. Problems... And you won't get a master by reading a book. ^^ Combine the book idea with skills, and you got the perfect game in my opinion. (same as Project Zomboid, by the way) Sigh. Skills are not an objective. Survival is the objective, skills are the tools needed to accomplish that objective. Well, the guy can do that. But he still needs to go out there and search for loot, which he needs to develope his skills. And even if. It's the case right now. People will always server hop, to get items. People will always kidnap people just for some blood. You can try to prevent people from doing it, but there will be always some guys who exploit and farm/grind. Skills are the same as loot. Same problems. And even if a guy does that, grinding himself for hundrets of hours. Who cares? He can lose all the progress within a minute. He invested 100 hours anyways. He won't be OP, because others will be able to reach the same within the same or even shorter amount of time. Ask yourself, who would invest 10 totally boring hours to grind, if it's not even certain that he will keep the skills at all. He can do that while playing the game, much more enjoyable.

I agree, but the content is kind of flawed. :|

A medical skill system will be implemented. This is not something to argue about, it's Deans idea. Let me do this: I don't like loot, because it's introducing an objective to the game. People would focus on the payoff of collection loot, rather than focus on whats happening in the game. But, to solve your problem: The longer your survive, the higher you skills can get. You cannot grind because after you do something once, you need to wait an amount of time to do it again. Additionally, skills like reparing and crafting consume valuable goods. There are many ways to fix these problems. So if they were fixed, would you like a skill system?

Wrong, we don't have a skill system, we are playing a game based on player expirience and luck. Those two factors decide about life and death. But alright, I get your point. Important is the "I don't want to die because..." part. That's not true. All the things you get are worthless. A repairbox? Who cares about it. Whatever gear you have, it doesn't matter to the most people. If they die, they have enough gear in their base. Now, if a repairbox would be super rare, then yes. You would probably do everything to not lose the box (not to not die). But if a repairbox is superrare, the game is just unbalanced. Here we go with factor 2, luck. You can search for 100 hours and still not find a repair box, because it's based on luck. You can survive for 100 hours and search for a repair box without making ANY progress in that regard. But if the repair box is common, it's not worth anything. So your logic equals to "skills are worth nothing" or "skills are based on pure luck". You can decide which one you choose, but currently it's "skills are worth nothing", that's how it is. In my opinion more importantly though is, that if you have a system based on gear as skills, people will indeed get bored by survival. They survived for 200 hours and found their first repairbox, but they know that a freshspawn can equire the same within 5 minutes, if he is lucky. And how long do you want to search for loot? How do you want to balance a game where it takes more than 10 hours to get the best gear? Another problem is that you can save skills by simply putting them into a tent. You can save 100 hour progress by putting it somewhere save. So as your assumption "Gear = skills" is kind of not really fitting, I am still wondering why do dislike the idea of having skills. You said yourself that people equire the skills by picking them up, simply based on luck, not on effort. What do you have against a system where you equire skills just by effort (and luck, as you require the items)? In both cases you lose the progress after dying.

What the f*ck? :D Well, if you are sure there are plenty of explanations, we can discuss it here. Or if you want it, even privately. Dealt with it. :lol:

No really, I didn't get it. Not once. I just got the argument of "OP players", which is kind of easy to fix.

Guys I am just wondering, maybe we are communicating wrong. To everyone who doesn't like the idea of a skillsystem: What are the reasons you dislike the concept?

Yes I know DayZ SA is not moddable yet, but just imagine: Chernarus Life with the engine of DayZ. Proper clothingsystem, proper meele combat, proper performance, proper graphics, proper everything and female characters. It would bring the X Life concept to a new level. But what do you guys think? Is it doable? Would you like to see some people create that? And most importantly, what do you think would happen if Bohemia would invest into another development group that creates a (Altis, Chernarus, whatever) Life Standalone. Frankly I have to say it would probably be a huge financial success, who knows, maybe even similar to DayZ? I think we all agree there is a big potential and Altis Life/Chernarus Life are really poorly made (not saying it wasn't hard work, but it doesn't seem like a "real" game at all) and have many players anyways. It is important to make Bohemia realise that they have created an engine that allows game concept no other engine is able to support (at the moment). They just have to take it, turn it into something good and fish the money out of our pockets. Win for everyone...

Remove RP and increase gameplaymechanics. Do not allow RDM by gameplay mechanics. (very simple solution, make weapons hard to get, make life valuable) Standalone would have to change many things, the mod is just a raw concept badly designed.

You don't need the license, you just steal the idea and do the same just better. The thing with Altis Life is that the concept is based on something that needs to work. DayZ is a game where you add some players and zombies and let them do whatever the f*ck they want, it's still fun. I am talking about potential here, sure Altis Life sucks ass if you look at it from a developer perspective. That is why the game is not well visited. But if you take some guys who do serious buisness, I can almost garantuee you that with some advertisment this game would go beyond what we all think it is. So in my opinion, it's just a matter of how good the concept is implemented. If it's done well, the game would most certainly make profit.

I never was talking about an aimbot. But it's a known fact, that the more you train to shoot, the more often you will hit where you aim. It is simple training, no magic. Right now it's just the other way around. Everyone has "aimbot". Everyone can shoot like a special forces sniper veteran who has 5 medal of honors etc. wtf? What has this to do with skill? And as*holes (you said that ^^) like you are always a problem. This is why DayZ is DayZ. Without losing your progress, what would be the point of the game? The point is that as*holes like you won't be able to do as much as others, because you don't give a f*ck about surviving. You go run around like a maniac. You will have your fun (probably not), but you will never get as far as someone who plays the game authentic. This is my point. Right now, you have to roleplay it. But if your character has value, you won't roleplay it, it will be f*cking real because you do not want to die no matter what.

The zombie sounds are often coming from rabbits. ^^

Don't know. Do you have a better idea? Present it here, this is why we are a community. What I know is that people care about DayZ being a survival game and having a reward for surviving long.

Who cares about health?