Wayze

In DayZ there is no reward for surviving a very long time. Once you have gear, there is really nothing to do but to interact with other players (for the most people it means killing others). Would you like a reward for staying alive? Do you want DayZ to be about survival? What kind of reward is not discussed here, I just want to find out how people generally think about this. For further information to the topic: http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/170523-why-dayz-is-no-survival-game/

What just came to my mind: There is another problem with loot based progress. In real life, people do value other peoples life because they are humans. Sure, they kill each other to survive, but someone would never kill another guy for his cool looking gun. He would kill him because he is a threat. Let's take this situation: You are running through the woods with your friend. Your friend gets shot and killed. What would you do in real life? Probably run for your life. What do you do in DayZ? You fight until death to take revange. Why? Simple: All you can lose is your gear. All the progress you can make in the game is always just gear. And here is the very essential part: You know exactly that you can get for 0% to 90% progress with one kill. If you want new gear, you just kill another guy. You know exactly that it is possible and it is fun, so why would you try to survive? You have nothing to lose, all the progress you made can be made again in a very, very short amount of time (by killing someone or looting stuff). In DayZ I honestly never run for my life. Maybe I did when I was new, almost 2 years ago, but at this point it's just a matter of honor to kill another guy who is trying to kill me. It is a challenge. I do fear for my life, because I know I will lose an hour or two, but I know when I die I can still do whatever I want to. And to be honest, I rather die and gear up again than running around like a scared bambie because I don't want to lose my stuff. Sure there are combat loggers and people who run like chicken, but these people are most likely new to the game. I don't know anyone who has played the game for more than 6 months and is still combat logging, just makes no sense. If you die, well then you gear up again. In other words: If I die, I have a purpose again. If I die I will have a goal again. I will not run around and search for trouble, I will have the goal to collect gear until I am armend and able to shoot others. This is a very common thinking process of a DayZ player. Even if there are bases, cars etc. people will always think that way. In a way the game is making us to pure materialists, because there is nothing else to value. I think a second hive with real character value would satisfy the community. People who want to play Battlefieldstyle will play on normal servers, and the ones who want to play a survival game will play on the character value hive. Everyone wins.

Maybe. Are you utter arrogant and intolerant? Sure, because DayZ mod is so uncomplete and is such a good survival game. Like I said, people don't care about the survival elements because there is no other point in surviving than holding a weapon in your hand an shooting others. (because guess what, there is no reward for surviving) And if I am thinking this game is how the game will be in future, why would I quit right now and uninstall? I do not understand. :huh: Then you do not watch youtube videos/twitch. Sorry, but every single streamer/youtuber says that there is nothing to do in the game but to go and shoot each other. Sure, maybe it will change in the future, but maybe it won't.

No the goal in DayZ is to find a weapon and shoot people. Who the f*ck actually plays the game as a survival game? There is no point in doing it, as I said the game is designed for deathmatch, it's the sad truth.

No it's not at all a goal in any game. A sandbox game is designed to have no goal. DayZ is designed as a survival game. Just because you have the freedom to do anything you want, does not mean it is a sandbox game. I can do whatever I want in Skyrim, because it's open world, not because there is no goal in the game. Sure, you can take the goal of the game and do something different, but the game as itself was designed for a specific playstyle. And wait a second. If DayZ was a sandbox game, why the hell would a reward for surviving stop that? I mean, there is a reward for searching stupid items. There is a reward for killing everyone on sight. The only thing there is no reward for is simple survival. Guys, I am not sure if you get it. There are people out there who want to have another purpuse in the game other than "finding a good gun and shooting people", because this is the only thing you can do in DayZ. Add content and it will be "finding a gun, a helicopter and kill people with that" and further "finding a gun, building a house to save up gear and go kill people without losing your gear". I cannot blame anyone that they set themselves these goals, because there is nothing else to do in end game.

Wrong again, actually I think I have to create a new thread for this one. DayZ is NO sandbox game. There is a goal: Surviving. This is supposed to be the main goal of the game, if it has a goal, it's no sandbox game. If it is a sandbox game, it is no survival game. But at this point the game is nothing more than a "gear up" and "kill other people" game, which may change in the future. But it is definitely no sandbox game. And hwat has hello kitty to do with any of this? xD

Oh hell yes I do: http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/170523-why-dayz-is-no-survival-game/

Loot progression is not at all more "fair" than character skill progression. It also does limit your ability to play the game. Trying to explain: Loot progression is purely based on luck. In that matter it isn't fair at all. Someone can search for 4 hours and have the same progress as someone who did the exact same thing as you within 1 hour. It isn't fail in matters of PVP, because it is purely based on luck. Whoever has the better gear has a higher chance to win. The harder it is to obtain it, the more unbalanced the game gets. Someone with good gear is alway OP. Sure you can argue it is based on skill, but equal skill vs better gear it will be the one with better gear that wins. In that matter, both character progression and skill progression are the same, just that in character progression you get constant progression that is not based on PURE luck. And yes, the loot system does limit your ability THE SAME WAY skills do. If I do not have all car parts, I cannot build a car. The one guy who is more lucky than me, will be able to repair the car, even though he maybe searched for 5 mins and I did the same for 20 hours. Luck. Luck. Luck. The more rare a part is, the more it is based on pure luck. THe more unbalanced the game gets and the more OP player there will be. Make loot rare and there will be a small amount of people that dominates all of the weaker ones. Same as capitalism. Fewer people that get richer and richer and more people who get poorer and poorer. Yes it's harder to implemented (very easy to be honest), but it does actually give the players who want to play a survival game, not a "loot this and that game" another goal. A real goal. A goal that increases joy for them. And the problem I have with loot is, it will always be storeable. At some point you will get to end game where you have your server with your buddies and a gigantic base that has everything. At that point you are immortal. You die? Who gives a f*ck, go back to your base (maybe even spawn there?) and gear up again. There is no permadeath in endgame. This causes people to get bored and do deathmatch. Which will, in a lootsystem that is based on super rare items, be fatal for people who do not have anything. They will just run around and like I said before, dominate everyone who is weaker (which will be the absolute majority in the game). Just make hardcore servers with character progression, it's alpha, we'll see if there are enough who enjoy it. And it's really not that hard to implement. You didn't really pay attention to the development, did you? Exactly this will be the case. But in future, if a zombie hits you, there will be a great chance of infecting you or hurting you badly. Meaning that letting you hit by a zombie over and over again will simply result in death. And do the same with your buddy, same effect. He stabs you, you will have a chance to get hurt badly and that's the end of it. This is how it will work and there will be such a system implemented, as Dean already said. The same as people think they can use it to their advantage, the same there are ways to prevent them from doing that. Not that hard to do, you just have to think for a moment.

More than 200 votes, not something I would have expected. I think we can all agree now that we kind of want a further character value than just the gear someone is wearing. Many people do not want it, but many people also like to spawn in electro and do deathmatch, I guess. Maybe we can get some more votes.

Like I said before, if skills are tight to extremely rare loot, the game will simply be unbalanced. Found a 800m scope? Well you have to find a manual that is even more rare. Want to start a fire without matches? Go and find a survival text. You know, if it is extremely rare, most people won't find it. If it is not extremely rare, people will just store it somewhere. (permadeath =/= permanent) If there are really extremely rare items, people will buy DayZ a second time and store the items on a character that is never used. (I mean, if it is really rare not juste like "run around for 2 hours to find it") The problem is, how rare do you want to make it? If you need 100h+ to find it, well then people won't search for it. Now the important part, which is crucial: If all these things are extremely rare: People won't give a sh*t about their characters life, until they found one of these things. Meaning, they search for 20-40hours and until they find it, they will act like rambos. But if they do find it, they will be careful, store it or do whatever they want with it. Until they die... Same again, 20-40 hours rambo mode "oh I found a super survival text!!", survival mode activated. If you have constant progression over time, people will have to be in survival mode from the beginning. They can't just wait until they have luck. They have to actually do something for it. And if they screw up at any point of the progression, they will have to do everything from scratch. Sure, people won't care much the first 2 hours, but after that, they know they would have to train for full 2 hours to reach the same point. Same as Flappy Bird. You want to go further and further. The more you had before you died last time, the more you want to have next time. You can't just chill out on 20 if you had 100 before, you have to do all the 100 steps again. And in Flappy Bird it worked, as I think it would work in DayZ. (hopefully)

Seriously, who cares about FPS? I just switched a server one time and have to wait full 260 seconds to be able to play the game. Seriously, logged off a server and because it was dark and bam gotta wait until the next century.

There is even more senseless PVP in the mod. After you can store your goods, you can just go and hunt players. Who cares if you die? You will just go back to your gear and kill everyone again. And again. And again. And honestly, what would you do else? There is simply, as you said, no other end goal but to shoot each other. And if this is the purpose of a survival game, I kind of have doubt in the concept. Essentially, you do not collect gear to defend yourself, you collect gear to have fun and kill others.

So let's remove loot, because people can go on unpopulated servers for 2+ hours to gear fully up and have an enormous advantage over anyone who plays the game normally. And beards do not work. First thing, how long would the beard get if you want to differ from a 10 hours and 100 hours and 1000 hours character? And what if I hate beards? And what's with female characters? Nope, beards are cool but not at all the issue solver for character value. And PEOPLE if you want to talk about SKILLS go over HERE: http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/170523-why-dayz-is-no-survival-game/ This thread is just about the problem, that there is no point in survival in the game and if people would like to have this problem fixed.

So you seriously think that people will go on loot hunt, just to wait until the loot gets destroyed? If I find a M4, what will I do with it if not using it? Wait until it breaks. xD

My tone? My tone depends on how your read my text. I didn't intend to sound offensive. And "giving a f*ck", is just a way how I express something. Has nothing to do with you or the situation. It's how I use the english language, young woman. What is the difference between loot, that restricts playstyle and simple skills, that do not restrict playstyle at all? And no, DayZ is no sandbox game. It always tried to be a survival game.

You mean less drive to survive, as your life has no value at all (you can go and pick up the gear from your base/tent). DayZ is kind of a loot simulation. It's all about loot, loot, loot. Loot here, loot there. Loot is everything. Loot! It's no f*cking sandbox game, because the only thing you can do is looting and killing other players and zombies with your loot. Skilltree? I don't think that anyone suggests a skilltree. On the one hand you say "DayZ is a survival game" and on the other hand you say "DayZ is a sandbox game". A sandbox game has NO goal. The goal in DayZ is surviving, isn't it? Do you really want a sandbox game or a proper survival game, where it is about survival? I know that Dean wants a survival game, and this is why he is speaking himself of the importance of character value.

http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/171845-do-we-want-a-reward-for-surviving/ Time will tell.

Poll needed.

The issue is that the game is so boring after you found gear and vehicles, that players go out there and hunt other players for fun. They don't do it for gear. They don't do it to get better. They do it simply to have fun. This is the issue. There is simple nothing else to do once you have reached your "gear" and "vehicle" goals, but shooting each other. As DayZ is supposed to be a survival game (you know, about SURVIVING, not simulating call of duty), it just doesn't fit at all in the game. The next issue is: If you want to play the game as a survivor, it is just f*cking boring. Let's be honest, if you were a survivor you would never run around the airfield or populated areas. You would just try to survive. This is how real life works. In real life you have your life that is very valuable. But in DayZ? What do you have? Gear is just gear, it is something you USE to survive, not something you should survive FOR. If you are a survivor there is nothing to do. You can survive for 500 hours and you will have NOTHING out of it. Your character will be still as valuable as a freshspawn. This is the problem. People who want to play the game how it was intended to (as a SURVIVAL game) will not enjoy it, because there is no POINT in survivng. There is just gear that you collect. Gear that you can store. And most importantly, the most valuable gear you can find is supposed to KILL other players. So issue 1 again, once you have found the best gear, there is nothing else to do than shooting each other (what would you collect the gear for, if not using it?). A loot system that is the only way to make progress in a game is FORCING players to kill other for fun. You don't use weapons to defend yourself, oh maybe you do, but most people do it to have fun. Think about it. The only thing that you can reach is getting a better weapon. Once you have the weapon, you are forced to use it, because you can lose it at any point. If you don't use it and have some fun with it, all the progress was useless. This is what most players in DayZ think. This is the reason why the mod and the alpha are deathmatches (you know what I mean). This is the reason why nobody is surviving, but doing exciting sh*t. I think some people in this forum need to learn to read with attention. Just read it again. Maybe you will understand. Oh, my mistake I think. (sorry ^^) I use "I give a f*ck about something" to express that I actually care about it.

Yes I know, (he meant what I meant, because IT IS WHAT IT MEANS IN DAYZ) but I still want to know what you mean by: I never called you stupid. Read with attention please. I asked for your assistance because I am stupid, not YOU. And no, I did not choose to ignore it. I just don't get what you mean by that. You say "deathmatching is that and that" (which is not true because it is by DayZ definition exactly what I describes, just you being new to the game doesn't mean you know everything), and say that based on that fact my whole post is bullshit. But you actually know exactly what I meant by "deathmatching", which leaves the question why the post is bullshit? Actually, YOU are the one who ignores me. You are the one who skips EVERY single of the points I brought. What do you mean by "where I am going"? There is a whole thread about "where I am going" with this. What have other games to do with it? Ok, but if you want: I don't give a f*ck about other games including survival aspects. I give a f*ck about DayZ. DayZ has VERY realistic survival aspects, but there is no point in surviving at all. You know?

Oh my god. Skyline you are trolling me. There is no other way. The only thing you did by now is telling me that I am wrong and saying that deathmatching does mean what I meant by it. Maybe I am totally stupid here, just TRY to explain to me. Why is that so hard? I actually want to understand what you mean. And I have read everything, but I just don't get it. Try to use other words or I don't now. Maybe someone else can explain to me what Skyline means?!

What do you mean by that? I thought I made clear that I meant "Players killing each other for fun" by "deathmatching". You are making no sense... :( Why would I do that and what would it have to do with the discussion?

Yes I know, you told me that already. So you want to leave me stupid? I want to know the mistakes. Show me. If you see assumptions that are stupid or "jumps" then show them to me and tell me why my conclusion is unlikely. Like I said, this is what the forum is for. Helping each other to understand. And you got the chance to make me understand. Just try, please. Like I said, this concept does work in Diablo, but not at all in DayZ (as you can see in the mod and the SA). In Diablo you don't fight against other players. You know what you have to expect. You can risk your character because there is no unknown factor that can kill you at any time. And in Diablo it's easy to reach level cap. If there was no level cap, I am pretty sure that at some point people wouldn't care about RNG anymore, because they would like to get the stats higher and higher. But this is all controlled by the developer, he decides how he designs the game. And in Diablo it works. In DayZ, a mainly PVP game, it just doesn't work.

Alright, let's get back to the actuall topic. What is wrong about this:

Yes. But you forgot the aspect of permadeath. With permadeath and constantly losing your progress a player tends to give no f*ck about the loot, after he had it a view times. And it's not like you can find a super strong and super rare (like in EVE online, but even there it's not based on luck) weapon in DayZ, this concept just doesn't work. Diablo is a RPG, not a survival game where the best you can find is maybe a DMR, which you will lose eventually. But usually I agree. RNG is a stronger motivator than skill progression, in games like Diablo. Skills are something you cannot loose, they are something constant. You put certain effort in and you are garantueed to have success which you will not lose. A system which gives you things based on luck is way more attractive in that matter. It is a commonly used word in the DayZ community. Don't try to reinvent the f*cking wheel. But as we have this misunderstanding put aside. What is so flawed about my logic?