My case for why the humanity mechanic could never be working as intended(in accordance to what Rocket wants as well)

[Notlim 2]

First a post by rocket to set the stage for what we are considering the goal this mechanic is after(note its age): [1] http://dayzmod.com/f...t__60#entry8328

Theres two important points I want to repeat from him. First, it is something he believes takes a very long time to make work. He likely understands right now it is very broken and not quite working as intended, or at least suspects so. Secondly, the bare bones purpose for humanity is, "The mechanic should reflect your chosen gameplay style".

While I think the idea is a grand and cool one, this second point I believe is not possible even under multiple edits of the mechanic. This argument does not include temporary issues and is on the assumption the game is in a bug-free and hack-free environment.

There are two reasons I believe this:

-There are too many play styles to cover and not enough ways to track them. Lets say the Humanity mechanic evolved to include four types of people; Bandit, Medic(considering this the current 'hero' given the ways to raise ), Anti-Bandit(lots of kills, on bandits), and default/generic friendly.

These are extremely simplified forms of play and have almost no solid bearing on play style. The Bandit could really be someone that kills snipers around Cherno, frequents places of no-friendlies like the Northwest Airfield, or simply has bad luck and has to kill a group where a single person fired at them from. The medic could be someone that constantly helps people out but kills people with the absolute best equipment. The Anti-Bandit will inevitably have to kill people who are not yet under the bandit humanity and it can happen often enough to fall back to a default or even bandit status. The mechanic favors Bandits that kill and move on for some time waiting for regenerative humanity(unless killing becomes more severe in punishment, in which all others will suffer as well). See below for how drastic these issues can become when intentional misuse occurs.

-It will always be highly exploitable.

For the sake of argument I will assume Humanity stays similar to how it is now. If in a large group, kills are often spread between multiple people. A group of five kill-everything players can hold a city on lock down and stay in neutral standing with some preperation and finesse. A group can easily make any member(s) increase humanity by having the group inflict injury on eachother then bandage blood bag eachother perpetually. While some measures could make this less effective, the largest clans will always have this ability. People who want to grief can spend hours purposefully provoking attack while staying at above zero humanity, forcing kills on others(I actually already saw someone talking about this elsewhere) to lower their humanity.

The Humanity mechanic is still in its infancy, just as much of Dayz is. As rocket said himself, it is difficult and expensive to develop such a mechanic that actually works. My question to the dayz player base is whether it is worth it to pursue a working version of this mechanic, and how that might be done, or remove it from the game. Please try to stay as on topic about the mechanic itself and not bugs, hacks, "carebears", "hardcore gamers", etc. I really believe we could have a good discussion on this mechanic without it devolving into petty squabbling.

[Lennsik 176]

I don't think anything game developers project turn out to happen. We've watched entire mechanics and dynamics be changed by the player base in multiple games. Humanity will server a purpose, whether intended or not.

[Knollte 13]

There are long running games trying to figure out pvp and no system convinces me entirely I even think the bandit skins work pretty well compared to e.g. eve onlines security rating.

However having no flag at all leads inevitably to clan dominance in my opinion so a flawed mechanic is better than none at all and I fear even with alot of work its not getting any better.

To suggestions could address at least some of you mentioned issues:

-A cooldown to humanity gains from bloodtransfers(for example only once a day to the same person or only 2 time a day at all).

-the ability to hide your identity would allow to pvp without (huge) loss of humanity by wearing bandit masks voluntary.

http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/62598-masked-robberyassasination-bandit-skins/#entry597660

[Zera_Grey 28]

you pulled an old post from May as a source. that was the old bandit system I assume they have reworked it some and didn't just copy and paste the broken system back in. if you are killing snipers on sniper hill 90% chance that person is a bandit anyway which I don't think negatively impacts humanity. medics tend to carry tons if med supplies and only kill if attacked, anyone attacking a medic is probably a bandit. one person against a group is never going to happen if anything the single person being shot at would flee/hide till the group is gone. if a medic is killing in any way other then self defense they are not medics, plus never heard a medic go around shooting players who are carrying high tiered gear. anyone staying in one place to long is not going to live long it is smart to keep moving not an advantage for just bandits doing so.

Farming for humanity is dumb and anyone who does that is a pathetic loser. I hope once you have gotten the bandit skin the only way to remove it is to not kill for a long time period. the only thing broken about humanity is that people like to do evil things with out consequence and once consequences are added those people will fight to remove them so they don't have to face the truth bout what they are doing.

if you are going to be a bandit wear that head piece with pride.

[Notlim 2]

However having no flag at all leads inevitably to clan dominance in my opinion so a flawed mechanic is better than none at all and I fear even with alot of work its not getting any better.

I mentioned in my post how humanity is easily exploited by clans. Even if it weren't, how does this help remove clan dominance in any way? I don't really understand how humanity cuases clans to be at a disatvantage compared to a non-clan group that just met eachother.

-A cooldown to humanity gains from bloodtransfers(for example only once a day to the same person or only 2 time a day at all).

This will make anyone that tries to achieve above average humanity rarely get very high. Once a day per person isn't an issue for even medium clans, and a max per day would mean people would have to incredibly rarely shoot someone thats not a bandit. I've spoken to someone trying to get the hero skin today by being a medic but had to kill two people that went after him. Hes now in the negative even after helping a few people.

-the ability to hide your identity would allow to pvp without (huge) loss of humanity by wearing bandit masks voluntary.

http://dayzmod.com/f...ns/#entry597660

I don't understand how that would work without severe exploitation. Once you are high enough with a mask you could go on a killing spree. People are already planning to try to attempt to get high humanity, then backstab or do general bandit activity, then repeat. This would only make it easier.

That aside, the mechanic is can just as easily be done without the mask. Anyone with a hero skin would receive reduced punishment for killing would do the same thing.

Edit:

you pulled an old post from May as a source. that was the old bandit system I assume they have reworked it some and didn't just copy and paste the broken system back in.

It is a very similar mechanic as it was before except it is more dynamic. I have reviewed the new mechanics and if anything, bandits will be less common than before. It is still incredibly relevant.

if you are killing snipers on sniper hill 90% chance that person is a bandit anyway

With the mechanics still very similar to a few days ago, that isn't true. I mentioned that.

medics tend to carry tons if med supplies and only kill if attacked, anyone attacking a medic is probably a bandit.

I understand this. Nowhere did I mention otherwise.

one person against a group is never going to happen

What? This happens incredibly often for me on both sides of the equation.

if anything the single person being shot at would flee/hide till the group is gone.

See above. I've been in many situations where I am against two or three people, especially in regards to places like sniper hill. Just the other day I had to flank a group of 3 snipers and their pointman because they had someone pinned down in the city below.

if a medic is killing in any way other then self defense they are not medics, plus never heard a medic go around shooting players who are carrying high tiered gear.

If there is a way to make yourself look REALLY friendly, then get in contact with well geared people, do you really think it wouldn't happen? I already have met people saying they are trying this with the hero skin.

anyone staying in one place to long is not going to live long it is smart to keep moving not an advantage for just bandits doing so.

What is this in relation to?

Farming for humanity is dumb and anyone who does that is a pathetic loser. I hope once you have gotten the bandit skin the only way to remove it is to not kill for a long time period.

Talking about the existance of people who exploit a mechanic for their own gain totally makes me that person, right?

the only thing broken about humanity is that people like to do evil things with out consequence and once consequences are added those people will fight to remove them so they don't have to face the truth bout what they are doing.

When did I say I do these things? Please keep in mind my last part of my post.

if you are going to be a bandit

Sorry, I don't care for playing like a 'bandit', and even if I did it mean a hell of a lot considering we aren't talking about me. I like being the one that dies trying to befriend the sniper even if it means he might backstab me after I stop holding him at gun point. I like being the one that almost every time I log in my sole goal is helping people out, often including giving away high quality weapons because I prefer having a Winchester and Enfield on me at all times. But I guess I'm a horrible person because of that. Sorry.

Edited August 12, 2012 by Notlim

[kryvian 123]

voluntary bandit masks. that sounds real good. but, then how do we tell players that have killed a ton of survivors from survivors? (if said bandit has reached the - humanity treshold for bandit skin). then he has to wear forever a mask?

[bazbake 456]

As of 1.5.8, you lost up to 7,000 humanity/kill (number of shots taken to kill person + base death bonus).

You get 20 humanity for a bandage. 150 humanity for a blood pack.

To restore the humanity from 1 kill, it would take 20-40 blood packs.

...

OP's clearly a bandit trying to undermine bandit skins by throwing out ambiguity.

[louist 163]

you pulled an old post from May as a source. that was the old bandit system I assume they have reworked it some and didn't just copy and paste the broken system back in. if you are killing snipers on sniper hill 90% chance that person is a bandit anyway which I don't think negatively impacts humanity. medics tend to carry tons if med supplies and only kill if attacked, anyone attacking a medic is probably a bandit. one person against a group is never going to happen if anything the single person being shot at would flee/hide till the group is gone. if a medic is killing in any way other then self defense they are not medics, plus never heard a medic go around shooting players who are carrying high tiered gear. anyone staying in one place to long is not going to live long it is smart to keep moving not an advantage for just bandits doing so.

Farming for humanity is dumb and anyone who does that is a pathetic loser. I hope once you have gotten the bandit skin the only way to remove it is to not kill for a long time period. the only thing broken about humanity is that people like to do evil things with out consequence and once consequences are added those people will fight to remove them so they don't have to face the truth bout what they are doing.

if you are going to be a bandit wear that head piece with pride.

Where are these consequences you speak of? The skin? Just wear a ghillie suit.

[The Sad Panda 113]

as long as skins remain cosmetic, I don't think it's going to matter all that much in the long run. Experience should have taught most of us by now that the only people you can trust, are the ones who haven't shot you yet.

As it so happens, I no longer trust any of my squad mates with firearms. They seem to always "slip" and shoot me in the ass. First world problems I suppose?

[BlindProphet 34]

-There are too many play styles to cover and not enough ways to track them. Lets say the Humanity mechanic evolved to include four types of people; Bandit, Medic(considering this the current 'hero' given the ways to raise ), Anti-Bandit(lots of kills, on bandits), and default/generic friendly.

These are extremely simplified forms of play and have almost no solid bearing on play style. The Bandit could really be someone that kills snipers around Cherno, frequents places of no-friendlies like the Northwest Airfield, or simply has bad luck and has to kill a group where a single person fired at them from. The medic could be someone that constantly helps people out but kills people with the absolute best equipment. The Anti-Bandit will inevitably have to kill people who are not yet under the bandit humanity and it can happen often enough to fall back to a default or even bandit status. The mechanic favors Bandits that kill and move on for some time waiting for regenerative humanity(unless killing becomes more severe in punishment, in which all others will suffer as well). See below for how drastic these issues can become when intentional misuse occurs.

I'm not sure you understand what you're saying. Its not different play styles as in he's a medic, he's sniping noobs, he likes to gun them down in the streets. Its Bandit, Survivor, Hero. This essentially covers everything you put in your post. Bandits...people who murder people a lot, steal stuff from others, ect. Survivors, people who survive, they might murder the occasional person now and then, heal the occasional person now and then, but in the grand scheme of things they're not particularly going one way or another, they're just surviving. Sometimes yeah that means capping that guy. Sometimes that means helping that other guy out. But they're pretty much balanced. The hero is pretty much going out of his way to help people. That's covers the entire gamut of activities with other players. And it works. Me? I'm generally in the survivor category. I don't particularly go out of my way to murder people, but I help my friends. And if we're threatened or not sure, heck yes I'm going to double tap that guy weapon or not. (Fairly recently let someone go like that and he reported our position to his buddies who swarmed in on us not terribly long afterwards)

-It will always be highly exploitable.

For the sake of argument I will assume Humanity stays similar to how it is now. If in a large group, kills are often spread between multiple people. A group of five kill-everything players can hold a city on lock down and stay in neutral standing with some preperation and finesse. A group can easily make any member(s) increase humanity by having the group inflict injury on eachother then bandage blood bag eachother perpetually. While some measures could make this less effective, the largest clans will always have this ability. People who want to grief can spend hours purposefully provoking attack while staying at above zero humanity, forcing kills on others(I actually already saw someone talking about this elsewhere) to lower their humanity.

I'm not sure you understand the system, much less what the word "highly" means. Humanity drops much faster than you raise it with healing. To balance out a murder its going to take more than just a bandage and transfusion. That means in order for them to exploit it in the manner you're talking about they'll need to wound themselves more in order to get that humanity back, and not accidentally end up killing their own mates. Doing so requires supplies. A good amount of them at that. Now on top of all that, you're assuming they always play as a group doing just that. It also assumes no one comes in and theres a large firefight or battle.

Sure you could exploit it this way but its not efficient time, or supply wise. With ammo on the way to becoming more finite this makes this harder as well, or again less efficient. So exploitable in that someone could spend time and effort on getting what they want and staying away from where they don't? Sure. Highly exploitable? Show me the evidence that proves that first because from what I've witnessed thats just not the case.

The Humanity mechanic is still in its infancy, just as much of Dayz is. As rocket said himself, it is difficult and expensive to develop such a mechanic that actually works. My question to the dayz player base is whether it is worth it to pursue a working version of this mechanic, and how that might be done, or remove it from the game. Please try to stay as on topic about the mechanic itself and not bugs, hacks, "carebears", "hardcore gamers", etc. I really believe we could have a good discussion on this mechanic without it devolving into petty squabbling.

Yes I think its worthwhile.

[Zeromentor 169]

*DOUBLE POST*

Is it just me, or are these forums acting kinda slow?

Edited August 12, 2012 by Zeromentor

[Zeromentor 169]

Generic Petty Squabbling post #9000062

No but seriously, humanity is nearly impossible to work correctly, which is one reason we can't have a full blown punishment system for bandits. Because then people would just spawn at the coast, grab a gun and terrorize people until they are eventually killed (never having to kill anyone, just break legs or fire their weapon) thus getting people punished for defending themselves.

So, the best we can hope for is pretty much what we already see. Skins. Just a flag to note that a person is guilt of killing someone, whether or not they are actual bandits, or they defended themselves from bandit-wannabes numberous times.

Unless someone comes up with a remarkably simple, easy to build and actually workable idea, we aren't going to see much better outside of a more refined version of what we now have.

[Knollte 13]

voluntary bandit masks. that sounds real good. but, then how do we tell players that have killed a ton of survivors from survivors? (if said bandit has reached the - humanity treshold for bandit skin). then he has to wear forever a mask?

You dont :D its like if batman is bane only wearing a different costume ,but as long as he wears a bandit mask you know he is danger and can defend yourself.

read more and discuss in this thread:

http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/62598-masked-robberyassasination-bandit-skins/

[Mister Motivational 24]

After some thought about this issue and reading L0G!N's suggested changes to the game, I believe a credible threat indicator could be worked into the game without actually having a need for the Humanity stat.

Here is his post which contains many links to L0G!N's other posts:

http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/35841-l0gins-suggestions-for-dayz/ *edit* fixed the link

My focus here are on these particular threads:

http://dayzmod.com/f...eight-on-items/

http://dayzmod.com/f...nventory-space/

http://dayzmod.com/f...sions-teamwork/

What he covers in these threads are weight of items and stamina, reduced inventory space, and specialized toolbelt space. Now I'm not going to go word for word on what has been posted in those threads, but I will give a rather simplified suggestion which utilizes these three suggestions. In addition I'm also suggesting heavily reducing the rate at which larger packs spawn as well as reducing their inventory space.

A player who is loaded out for long range PvP would need to spec out for that particular play style, this would mean utilizing things like a sling to carry a large rifle and a holster for a pistol as well as belt pack to carry any gear they loot. With this thought in mind, each of these specialized toolbelt slots would need visible indicators on the body. If you were to see a player with a hatchet pack, med pack, sewing pack and pistol holster it would be fairly clear they were armed but probably not a significant threat.

Now to clarify, it should be required to have a sling or holster to be capable of holstering a wielded weapon. If you have a rifle but no sling you could not switch to your pistol without putting the rifle down. This adds another level of complexity, if a player is running around with a rifle but no additional packs perhaps they are a threat because they would gladly take your gear or maybe they're a fresh spawn and would appreciate some help.

Add to this reduced inventory space, item weight and stamina now you have a fully different dynamic which allows you to determine how you will approach other players. A player with just a pistol may in fact be a bandit and may use their decreased item weight and increased speed and stamina to approach you quickly. Likewise that player who sticks to the forest with a long range rifle may just be a hunter, this of course requires animals to flee from players which is another issue that should be addressed. It now requires the player to determine just how sever a threat another player is.

Your ideas can flow from there, but I hope it's easy to see what I mean by having an indication of player intent without a hard percentage based indicator.

Edited August 12, 2012 by Mister Motivational

[jonahcutter 51]

Skins and tags aren't much of a consequence when players who are intent on kosing can do so from hundreds of yards away, and outside any legit threat from the zeds.

It's an effort to address a legit issue. Maybe it will succeed. But as Rocket points out himself, devs with far more resources than him don't do it because it's difficult and expensive.

Now maybe Rocket can overcome this. I don't put it past anyone to evidence ingenuity. The flip side of this is, I also never put it past a playerbase to find new and creative ways to exploit just about any game mechanic in ways the devs never imagined.

The ultimate problem with KOSing is the KOSer suffers no potential immediate negative consequences. Military-grade, long-range, high-rof of fire weapons with lots of ammo means the zeds, the thing that should be the great equalizer, are little more than a nuisance.

[Zera_Grey 28]

However having no flag at all leads inevitably to clan dominance in my opinion so a flawed mechanic is better than none at all and I fear even with alot of work its not getting any better.

I mentioned in my post how humanity is easily exploited by clans. Even if it weren't, how does this help remove clan dominance in any way? I don't really understand how humanity cuases clans to be at a disatvantage compared to a non-clan group that just met eachother.

-A cooldown to humanity gains from bloodtransfers(for example only once a day to the same person or only 2 time a day at all).

This will make anyone that tries to achieve above average humanity rarely get very high. Once a day per person isn't an issue for even medium clans, and a max per day would mean people would have to incredibly rarely shoot someone thats not a bandit. I've spoken to someone trying to get the hero skin today by being a medic but had to kill two people that went after him. Hes now in the negative even after helping a few people.

-the ability to hide your identity would allow to pvp without (huge) loss of humanity by wearing bandit masks voluntary.

http://dayzmod.com/f...ns/#entry597660

I don't understand how that would work without severe exploitation. Once you are high enough with a mask you could go on a killing spree. People are already planning to try to attempt to get high humanity, then backstab or do general bandit activity, then repeat. This would only make it easier.

That aside, the mechanic is can just as easily be done without the mask. Anyone with a hero skin would receive reduced punishment for killing would do the same thing.

Edit:

you pulled an old post from May as a source. that was the old bandit system I assume they have reworked it some and didn't just copy and paste the broken system back in.

It is a very similar mechanic as it was before except it is more dynamic. I have reviewed the new mechanics and if anything, bandits will be less common than before. It is still incredibly relevant.

if you are killing snipers on sniper hill 90% chance that person is a bandit anyway

With the mechanics still very similar to a few days ago, that isn't true. I mentioned that.

medics tend to carry tons if med supplies and only kill if attacked, anyone attacking a medic is probably a bandit.

I understand this. Nowhere did I mention otherwise.

one person against a group is never going to happen

What? This happens incredibly often for me on both sides of the equation.

if anything the single person being shot at would flee/hide till the group is gone.

See above. I've been in many situations where I am against two or three people, especially in regards to places like sniper hill. Just the other day I had to flank a group of 3 snipers and their pointman because they had someone pinned down in the city below.

if a medic is killing in any way other then self defense they are not medics, plus never heard a medic go around shooting players who are carrying high tiered gear.

If there is a way to make yourself look REALLY friendly, then get in contact with well geared people, do you really think it wouldn't happen? I already have met people saying they are trying this with the hero skin.

anyone staying in one place to long is not going to live long it is smart to keep moving not an advantage for just bandits doing so.

What is this in relation to?

Farming for humanity is dumb and anyone who does that is a pathetic loser. I hope once you have gotten the bandit skin the only way to remove it is to not kill for a long time period.

Talking about the existance of people who exploit a mechanic for their own gain totally makes me that person, right?

the only thing broken about humanity is that people like to do evil things with out consequence and once consequences are added those people will fight to remove them so they don't have to face the truth bout what they are doing.

When did I say I do these things? Please keep in mind my last part of my post.

if you are going to be a bandit

Sorry, I don't care for playing like a 'bandit', and even if I did it mean a hell of a lot considering we aren't talking about me. I like being the one that dies trying to befriend the sniper even if it means he might backstab me after I stop holding him at gun point. I like being the one that almost every time I log in my sole goal is helping people out, often including giving away high quality weapons because I prefer having a Winchester and Enfield on me at all times. But I guess I'm a horrible person because of that. Sorry.

I was not attacking you with my post and not once did I say your name in my post. If it was directed at you I would have said Notlim if you do this or do that then you can get defensive. I was posting to the readers who are looking at the post so cool your head. I never said you did anything nor did I imply anything, if you got that feeling sorry.

the only thing broken about humanity is that people like to do evil things with out consequence and once consequences are added those people will fight to remove them so they don't have to face the truth bout what they are doing.

That line was a generalization and "you" was referring to the bandits players.

if you are going to be a bandit

this line is not even the full sentence and is an "if" sentence not meaning if you choose to do that don't be ashamed and whine about being outed as a bandit.

Farming for humanity is dumb and anyone who does that is a pathetic loser. I hope once you have gotten the bandit skin the only way to remove it is to not kill for a long time period.

again I was referring to bandit and generalizing it "you" refers to bandits in general and is part of an idea that they should only gain humanity through not killing for a period of time to combat the farming of humanity. the first part is also aimed at people who farm humanity if you don't do that then why should you care.

anyone staying in one place to long is not going to live long it is smart to keep moving not an advantage for just bandits doing so.

this is in relation to:

The mechanic favors Bandits that kill and move on for some time waiting for regenerative humanity(unless killing becomes more severe in punishment, in which all others will suffer as well).

if a medic is killing in any way other then self defense they are not medics, plus never heard a medic go around shooting players who are carrying high tiered gear.

this is referring to your comment of medics killing players with high tier weapons, they won't do this unless attacked first and at the point weapon type is irrelevant. players with high tier weapons shouldn't attack a medic unless they are a bandit. Self defense is protecting ones self from any player who is attacking unprovoked.

"one person against a group is never going to happen

What? This happens incredibly often for me on both sides of the equation.

if anything the single person being shot at would flee/hide till the group is gone.

See above. I've been in many situations where I am against two or three people, especially in regards to places like sniper hill. Just the other day I had to flank a group of 3 snipers and their pointman because they had someone pinned down in the city below."

if you are purposely engaging in group fights then thats different from you spotting a group. you choosing to put your self in danger and take on a group that was no threat to you. it is not the same as unwilling being put in that situation where you are being targeted by the group. I can assure you the person being shot at was hiding till the snipers found a new target or they could find a way to flee. that person was the target of the group not you so you didn't need to run or hide because they didn't know you were there.

medics tend to carry tons if med supplies and only kill if attacked, anyone attacking a medic is probably a bandit.

I was referring to the medic killing higher geared players comment you made.

if you are killing snipers on sniper hill 90% chance that person is a bandit anyway

I know there are non bandit snipers but most are the only reason you would be sniping a major city is to cover your buddy or to kill players who enter the city there really isn't any other reasons to be sniping.

you pulled an old post from May as a source. that was the old bandit system I assume they have reworked it some and didn't just copy and paste the broken system back in.

if you are going to use an old post on a reworked mechanic at least provide current information for readers. this will give people the better understanding of where you are coming from. I did say I assume which implies that I am unsure of what I am saying or in this case hoping they didn't just copy and paste.

Edited August 12, 2012 by Zera_Grey

[sixbarns 217]

Obviously this system is simple. No disrespect to anyone who works on it but it's the simplest form I can think of but it's still a vast improvement over what we had.

All the bandits I know hate the new patch because they don't like the idea of other players knowing they're mass murderers. They'd rather not meet any resistance when approaching unsuspecting players. They'd rather bandit hunters have no way to identify them through their scopes and therefore face zero resistance when sniping, camping, or hunting in Elektro or Cherno. They'd rather play the game like a traditional shooter with serious balancing issues than have the tables turned and become hunted themselves. Do these murderers actually choose this style of gameplay or is it just some type of Pavlovian conditioning they've picked up after playing endless hours of uninspired shooters? Who can say. I just know the game has more to offer than gunning down the weak again and again.

Either way, they all seem to have some weak reason for disliking this change but it almost always boils down to them losing the advantage they have over other players. They don't want other players scanning the horizon with sniper rifles and only shooting the bandits they see. I've heard murderers say "that isn't fair" even though that's exactly what they do again and again with zero discrimination of who they shoot. These murderers are only out for kills, the cheaper the better. If this wasn't the case then we wouldn't be seeing people attempting to find workarounds or trying to find ways to boost their humanity to neutral or hero status just for cheap kills.

Is the current system perfect? No. Does it need more work? Sure does. Are there currently work arounds? Definitely, like all systems. Do the benefits outweigh the negatives? Definitely.

Imagine Elektro controlled by heroes. Noobs and wannabe bandits could shop in peace while bandit groups plot to take it back. Control of areas would shift constantly and bandits would actually have competition. Actual PVP would take place rather than the current bloodbath of imbalance. Of course the bandits hate this..

I think the current system should evolve to include multiple tiers of positive and negative humanity. Each level could have an equivalent skin/item for their chosen style. A medic doesn't necessarily have to be a good guy as groups of bandits heal each other too, so positive humanity needs to earned in different ways. This seems like the first real hurdle in the humanity system. (bandit medic skin suggestion: a butcher :) ) Same goes for hunters, survivalists (animal skin covered mountain men/women) settlers, zombie slayers, or any other style we could think of.

Most modern shooters can track where you play, kill, die, what part of the body you hit, etc. I can't imagine the ArmA engine is somehow lacking in this. Building a system that uses this data effectively is the trick and just because it's not currently in your debug montior doesn't mean it can't be tracked. This system has a ways to go. Right now, it's doing what it should be. Balancing the bloodbath the murderers have created while making them as easily hunted as their prey while giving new and neutral players a visual key that aids in making accurate judgements about other players.

It's not a punishment or even a cure. It's a treatment.

[mikerunk2011@gmail.com 6]

Here are my thoughts on the subject. I don't think a humanity system is really needed. There just needs to be elements in place that make bandits pay a consequence for being a bandit. One thing that I think the game needs badly above all else is a safe zone for players to trade and meet up with other players. While you could still kill other players at this safe zone it would just cause the guards to kill you. For players that are bandits they would be KoS by guards at the safe zone. This would have a big impact on players that are bandits because it would limit there resources to what they find in the world or what communities that crop up that are willing to trade with them.

Also if bandit sit on roof top on building inside city shooting players he/she should attract a lot of zombies to there location thus trap them in the building if the stay to long.

The bottom line is the humanity system will only carry you so far. There is only so far you can go as far as realism in a game. Hand the game over to players and letting them decided what happens how things work is a walking disaster waiting to happen. Eve Online is the best sandbox game out there and even it doesn't just hand the galaxy over to players and say do whatever you want. There are rules and things that still apply. You can go in to Empire sector shooting other players but you will still die to the patrol ships.

There has to be consequence for everything and being a bandit means you alienate you're self from other players. In so doing so you loose access to resources that would be far easier to come by. However the balance is that you can take whatever you want. However balance is you will be hated and people will kill you if they can, there will be no safe haven for you.

That is just my opinion.

[tomhudnall2003@yahoo.com 0]

I would like to point out that the main draw of this game is the constant suspense. Wondering when that bullet that is going to get you and you are going to lose all the stuff you put days into getting, is what keeps you going after you learn how to avoid the zombies with ease.

Another point is the realism of this game.

1. If I was with one of my R/L friends in this kind of survival situation my chances of survival increases.

2. I would be less likely to friend a random in this situation because I don't want to die over a can of beans.

3. Anyone I didn't know I would kill if I had any inclination that they are a threat.

4. There would be many instances of accidental deaths because of perceived threats.

5. There would be many instances of people killing others because they have the better tools of war to take ketchup packets.

If the devs make real consequences for these actions were there would be none in real life would seriously damage the feel of this game.

I think the skins are the perfect reward/penalty.

Hero skins will get killed less by people worried about protecting there own lives. Bandit skins will be more recognizable and will get hunted by the community much like the old west.

The last point I would like to make is computer codes cannot handle every variable. So people will exploit everything every time.

[Knollte 13]

Here are my thoughts on the subject..... "I summarize your main points pls correct me if didnt catch the meaning"

-Safe zones

-Guards

-zombies attack bandits

1) Safe zones with guards are in numerous PvP mmo and have their very own problems:

-The exits are very predictable and will be most likely perma camped by PKs

-Welcome to the art of suicide ganking where for lol or awesome gear people willingly die to guard fire while their buddies loot the corpses

(lee enfield dude kills hero with AS50 + wookie suit and coyote,his comrades pick up everything and the lee enfield=profit).

-grenades.

2)Guards how fast do they kill ?how far can you shoot from outside into the safezone? will the Guards retaliate to the outtside? Do bullets get eaten by an invisible forcefield?Are Guards killable or invinceble?are invincible guards realistic? and so on..

3)zombies prefer to attack bandits? sounds like a punishment.

I like the idea of a sign for bandits more so that players can decide what the do with bandits.

[AllYoYens 34]

Doesn't matter that much to me. No one is friendly in the game. Taking a chance is foolish unless you have to.

[Theweirdone 29]

I play DayZ as friendly, I generally don't shoot first, unless we're in a high value loot area and I know the dude has a gun. I let people walk past me (When they have gun), I try to talk to people, I tell people I just looted this area and there was nothing there and let them go past. Guess how many life time bandit kills I have? 1. Guess how many lifetime murders I have? Over 20.

[SilasDrake 5]

all in all it still comes down to hey thats my shit not yours its all for me and no u cant have any of it its dumb day 25 survived btw after 3 sets of 8-10 days got a nice squad and more to come

[hoik 415]

The reason (IMO) that 'humanity' does not work in DayZ is because it is a equasion - this + that = this. Its mathamatical, with zero neuance and a unseen entity tells you that you have been good or bad. Humanity is not a law of physics and IMO can not be implemented as a hard and fast rule by a game.

Rather there should be tools/ mechanics that are undeniable (meaning unavoidable but subtle, as to be invisible), they themselves will not mark or judge the player asgood or bad, but rather allow the players to gather the facts as known to them and then make a judgement call - humanity is a human construct - so IMO it is impossible to accuratly emulate it in a game.

The first link in my sig trys a very basic method of giving the players a reason to care about the actions of others as well as their own - it does this simply by linking the quality/quantiy of loot on server to level rate of killing/co-operation (see link for details) - is this not how humanity works??

I admit my idea is very basic and does not cover the issue of identification or communication - which is the key (IMO) to a better, more interesting state of play in dayZ.

this is a good thread on communication and humanity - http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/12238-humanity-through-communication/

Edited August 16, 2012 by Hoik

[ZedsDeadBaby 2287]

In my opinion the notion of humanity is best abandoned completely.

Instead, focus on giving players tools and abilities that allow them to form their own social groups and enforce their own rules and regulations about behavior and to track reputations and past deeds.

• Give players the ability to identify and recognize other players.
  
• Lock player appearance, gender, and tag at creation. No changes without a new CD key.
  
• Give players a means to "describe" or photograph other individuals, so they can disseminate information about other survivors.
  
• Create a more focused server system so that you are more likely to encounter a consistent player population instead of the transient "every server is a fresh start" experience we have now.
  
• Let players don clothing customizations to quickly identify friends and squad mates.
  
• Share GPS coordinates to sync up with friends.
  

Add mechanics like this and more and players will begin to form their own groups, social rules and means of enforcement. And if a player knows that he might be seen commiting some atrocity and remembered for it, he/she might consider actions more carefully with respect to their impact on reputatoin and social standing.

A raw "equation" to calculate how naughty or nice you are and make you wear silly fucking hats because of it is just never going to work in my opinion. It's a band-aid that needs to be ripped off as soon as possible.

Edited August 16, 2012 by ZedsDeadBaby