Social Observation: Playing DayZ to not play DayZ

[derrida (DayZ) 18]

Fantastic post by the OP.

One of the problems now is that, even without duping and hacking, the gear system suffers massively to inflation, and there are very few ways for items to "exit" the game. Because of this, it's only a matter of time until everyone has the best gear. We've already seen how common rare gear is. At this point, it's about 10x easier to get the best items by killing other players than it is by finding it yourself.

[syncmaster (DayZ) 63]

Great op! I agree with it all. People seem to take what they don't like about the mod and exploit around it. I'm not sure what reasoning they use, and I expect not all of them play this wayin other games. It's just one of those things about dayz.

Edited August 11, 2012 by syncmaster

[Heh-Heh-Heh 0]

I hope Rocket never listens to people like OP.

This whole thing is riddled in boohoo.

As Chopper Read once said...

"Harden the fuck up"

[Ash_Lee 2]

I'm with you Mr.OP. I would say more, but you already covered it damn well enough imo. Neatly listed out n everything^^/ makes easier for others to understand as well, like you said some people probably would not read past the first sentence or w/e, which is there choice. I will just keep trying to play my friendly/carefree approach and just hope while trying to be a ninjar n' survive, I don't get capped b/c I startled someone by /salute lol.

:beans: Beans Beanz for u :beans:

[st0nedpenguin@st0nedpenguin.org 25]

My bad, I should have elaborated.

In no way do I see the mod as perfect. As you say, more ways to interact with the world and other players would add immensely to the overall experience.

I personally hope to see clues in the stand alone as to the genesis and back story of the "infection". I just hope this can be accomplished without resorting to the canned quests and xp treadmill style of game design.

Randomly spawned clues as to the cause of the infection and ongoing stories of non player characters could easily be scattered completely randomly around the world. It might even promote more conversation and less killing everyone in sight too if you could hunker down round a campfire and share these snippets of info with other players.

[Honest Bill 37]

I hope Rocket never listens to people like OP.

This whole thing is riddled in boohoo.

As Chopper Read once said...

"Harden the fuck up"

"I once met a man who was paranoid about dying, so i shot him"

Chopper's logic is unassailable...isn't it

[The Sad Panda 113]

Spot on post OP!

I agree with everything you have said!

I'd like rocket to remove the tents and stop storing in vehicles, then do a complete wipe of the hive, all tents gone, all players wiped.

But he wont do that, not a flippin chance.

Just gonna point this out, but one of the few things that keeps many players (myself included admittedly) on the friendly side of the spectrum, is that base building and vehicle hunting provides loosely structured, but still satisfying and achievable goals. Unless someone is directly threatening myself, or a member of my group, I don't have any motivation to harm them while we're working on these goals. If you remove tents, you make storing vehicle parts exponentially harder (Have you ever TRIED to carry more than one tire with a full combat load?), and if you put repairing vehicles out of reach...you've potentially spawned more players without a solid goal, leading to more random killings.

Maybe it's BECAUSE I play in a group that I'm still in favor of tents, i can't really be sure. I don't think that it's an abuse of the game to store the weapons we don't need at the time (Why on earth would I need my M4A3 CCO, when I'm supposed to be providing over-watch with my M14 AIM?). We're playing in the sandbox as we see fit, I see no legitimate reason why we should each have to carry

> Excessive Food / Water (Can't store it in tents if they're removed)

> Extra Medication (Currently we get away with carrying 1 blood bag / morphine each, can't do that if we constantly have to go to cherno / beriz / elektro to refill personal supplies)

> Jerry Cans to fuel vehicles (Couldn't store them in the truck anymore)

> Car parts (6 slots for a wheel, hope you don't need to be carrying anything else important

> Spare weapons (M24 just doesn't cut it when you have to enter the town, gotta carry that extra MP5 if you want to not spend the firefight hiding behind a wall)

> Ammo (I like my guns to be able to shoot at things, but maybe I'm just being silly)

The removal of storage mechanics is NOT the answer that this game needs. If anything, a better and more realistic solution that isn't cancerous to entire playstyles, would to have weapons and equipment degrade over time, and require repair or replacement (like I mentioned in my other post). Jerry cans can spring leaks, weapons can fall into disrepair, food (Steaks, any other non-preserved food that's implemented) can rot, even tents could require an occasional patching up / replacement. Removing storage all together would be a TERRIBLE knee-jerk reaction to a problem that's not even necessarily the fault of the mod itself, sure there are tents completely LITTERED with duped anti-material rifles, clothing, ammo, what have you.

But it's far from the tent's fault

[Heh-Heh-Heh 0]

"I once met a man who was paranoid about dying, so i shot him"

Chopper's logic is unassailable...isn't it

While Chopper was a cretin, his point about men in general was correct. Most of you couldn't fight your way out of a paper bag, and it shows. =)I'd rather be considered a dick than be scared by kittens.

[bazbake 456]

"Look, all I'm saying is I wouldn't play this game if dying meant I had to start from the beginning. By the way, you're kind of a coward if you don't let me hoard items and avoid permadeath."

Logic cried and then shot himself in the head after reading this.

[Honest Bill 37]

Just gonna point this out, but one of the few things that keeps many players (myself included admittedly) on the friendly side of the spectrum, is that base building and vehicle hunting provides loosely structured, but still satisfying and achievable goals. Unless someone is directly threatening myself, or a member of my group, I don't have any motivation to harm them while we're working on these goals. If you remove tents, you make storing vehicle parts exponentially harder (Have you ever TRIED to carry more than one tire with a full combat load?), and if you put repairing vehicles out of reach...you've potentially spawned more players without a solid goal, leading to more random killings.

Maybe it's BECAUSE I play in a group that I'm still in favor of tents, i can't really be sure. I don't think that it's an abuse of the game to store the weapons we don't need at the time (Why on earth would I need my M4A3 CCO, when I'm supposed to be providing over-watch with my M14 AIM?). We're playing in the sandbox as we see fit, I see no legitimate reason why we should each have to carry

> Excessive Food / Water (Can't store it in tents if they're removed)

> Extra Medication (Currently we get away with carrying 1 blood bag / morphine each, can't do that if we constantly have to go to cherno / beriz / elektro to refill personal supplies)

> Jerry Cans to fuel vehicles (Couldn't store them in the truck anymore)

> Car parts (6 slots for a wheel, hope you don't need to be carrying anything else important

> Spare weapons (M24 just doesn't cut it when you have to enter the town, gotta carry that extra MP5 if you want to not spend the firefight hiding behind a wall)

> Ammo (I like my guns to be able to shoot at things, but maybe I'm just being silly)

The removal of storage mechanics is NOT the answer that this game needs. If anything, a better and more realistic solution that isn't cancerous to entire playstyles, would to have weapons and equipment degrade over time, and require repair or replacement (like I mentioned in my other post). Jerry cans can spring leaks, weapons can fall into disrepair, food (Steaks, any other non-preserved food that's implemented) can rot, even tents could require an occasional patching up / replacement. Removing storage all together would be a TERRIBLE knee-jerk reaction to a problem that's not even necessarily the fault of the mod itself, sure there are tents completely LITTERED with duped anti-material rifles, clothing, ammo, what have you.

But it's far from the tent's fault

Fair point.. That's a good idea about item degradation.. That would fit perfectly i feel.. I'm not saying i don't like the idea of tents themselves, i just don't like the fact you can go back and get your stuff again with your new character.. If the loot you owned wiped on death, it wouldn't be a problem at all.. Just attribute ownership of a tent, and when that person dies the loot is wiped, or at east on a short timer, so people could still loot it

While Chopper was a cretin, his point about men in general was correct. Most of you couldn't fight your way out of a paper bag, and it shows. =)I'd rather be considered a dick than be scared by kittens.

I love how everybody's thinks they can glean some kind of insight in to people's characters over something like a computer game or a small and ambiguous portion of text.. I'm getting cursed out for being a coward and a carebear in this thread and in yet another thread i'm regarded as a treacherous bandit..

I've never even played the game so...

I was actually just making a point about Chopper.. Just not the best person to cite that's all haha.

Edited August 11, 2012 by Honest Bill

[syncmaster (DayZ) 63]

"Look, all I'm saying is I wouldn't play this game if dying meant I had to start from the beginning. By the way, you're kind of a coward if you don't let me hoard items and avoid permadeath."

Logic cried and then shot himself in the head after reading this.

Yeah I have no idea what we are going to do when the "hardcore" crowd has to actually play the game and they all quit.

Man I wish I could give beans on my phone. You and OP should never go hungry again.

[The Sad Panda 113]

Fair point.. That's a good idea about item degradation.. That would fit perfectly i feel.. I'm not saying i don't like the idea of tents themselves, i just don't like the fact you can go back and get your stuff again with your new character.. If the loot you owned wiped on death, it wouldn't be a problem at all.. Just attribute ownership of a tent, and when that person dies the loot is wiped, or at east on a short timer, so people could still loot it

That's fair enough, but for the sake of discussion I have to open Pandora's box here a little bit

Let's say we tie tents to the current existence of a character (Sort of like they are now, you can't take a tent down that wasn't set up by that specific character. If that character dies and the player creates a new one, they still can't take the tent down). When the character owning said tent dies, every piece of loot, including the tent, is completely erased. This works exactly as intended for solo players (as far as tents go, vehicle storage is another matter, will get to that in a minute). But what happens when the dead player was part of a group.

If a team goes out to raid, let's say Cherno, for supplies or to pick up a buddy, or to PK or whatever, it doesn't really matter. A few minutes in, Jimmy (or whatever you want the person's name to be) is shot and killed. Now normally this wouldn't be that big of a deal, his team can (hopefully) fight off Jimmy's attacker, and loot his body for anything important that may need to be recovered.

But wait

Jimmy had set up the medical tent back at the base. Now an entire group (could be small 2-3 man group, or it could be a rather large 20+ force of players) has lost all of its stockpiled medical supplies. Is that an acceptable loss? Is it the authentic experience that Rocket is going for? After all, Jimmy wasn't the only one who went out and gathered all of those blood bags, epi-pens, morphine injectors, it was a group effort. Do groups now and forever restrict the tent owners from going anywhere remotely dangerous? What about someone buying a 2nd CD key and setting up tents with that character. never to have it log in and be vulnerable again? What about cars - what determines their owner; the last one to drive it. the last person to store items in it, or the person who originally fixed it up? Is the solution still working as intended?

What about linking specific items to the character, instead of the storage medium. First of all, can the VR 3/4 engine even DO that? I have no idea, but I've seen no indication that it can. What about community type items such as food, water, and ammunition. They don't really belong to anyone in a sense, they're just there for anyone to use. It still doesn't stop the problem of 2nd CD characters (especially with standalone launching at a reduced price, it's not a stretch of the imagination to think that people would do this to avoid the "Perma-Death" of the game) being the foraging mules, while the "Main" characters are free to pluck what they want from the tents and be on their merry way.

I'm not opposed to death having more meaning in DayZ, in fact I'd welcome the challenge. However, the implementation of such a thing has to be handled with the utmost care, because a single wrong step can throw the entire machine out of sorts. Perhaps with the freedom of the standalone project, many of the game's current issues can be addressed in one way or another, but until then our problems must be addressed with a delicate touch.

[n7snk 13]

main issue is meta gaming. it destroy whole dayz experience. but 99% of people will never accept that and would not endanger themselves, take riscs like playing alone without friends, and it takes out random encounters element. on early stages of dayz when it wasn't so popular, it was a bit more intriguing and thrilling, when encountering another survivour there were 3 options: kos, group up, move along.

people don't want to be endangered so they play with friends.

so you are completely right.

[syncmaster (DayZ) 63]

To the above post (Sad Panda), you have a good point. Its just such a touchy issue like you mentioned. If its not handled right it will cause just as many problems as it fixes. I just hope topics like this make the devs realize that someone as small as tent/car storage could make or break the game for a lot of us. While letting people who WANT to break the game rule the world. I can't even begin to think of a good solution that is fair to everyone, so I hope they are brainstorming the hell out of this at some point.

I am personally in the group that likes tents a lot. However, I might be the only one on this game who has never visited a tent/car I owned after I was killed (not counting a few hacking incidents) . As far as I'm concerned its gone. I will leave it there for someone else to find. Its just sad that I have to force myself to accept permadeath instead of the game forcing me to. I don't think cheating death was what Rocket had in mind when he told us to do whatever we want.

[Strategos (DayZ) 190]

100% right, I've been trying to put this point of view across for ages. Please have some beans really nice to see an intelligent analysis of the situation.

As pointed out the current bugs compound the problems tenfold. Tents being immortal item factories primarily.

But there is also an inherent contradiction in the mechanics of Dayz, it tears the players in two different directions by enforcing "perma death" but providing mechanics and goals that span more than one life - obviously tents and vehicles, the idea of base building etc.

ACow, maybe you could have a gander at one of my old threads:

http://dayzmod.com/f...f-text-warning/

this one is relevant as well http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/13119-the-dayz-dichotomy/

Edited August 11, 2012 by Strategos

[Honest Bill 37]

Couldn't they just make it that only you can only store items in your own tent?

[The Sad Panda 113]

main issue is meta gaming. it destroy whole dayz experience. but 99% of people will never accept that and would not endanger themselves, take riscs like playing alone without friends, and it takes out random encounters element. on early stages of dayz when it wasn't so popular, it was a bit more intriguing and thrilling, when encountering another survivour there were 3 options: kos, group up, move along.

people don't want to be endangered so they play with friends.

so you are completely right.

..What?

No offense intended, but who is one person to decide what "The DayZ experience" is? It's a sandbox, not a linear scripted game. The experience is what you make of it. Why on Earth is the only "acceptable" experience to be a lone wolf stranded out in the middle of nowhere. Are you seriously implying that being in Ventrilo / TS3 with friends somehow ensures your safety? Because I can guarantee you it doesn't, I've got dead characters all over the map with .50 cal sized holes to prove it.

Even though i regularly play with real life friends, I still try to reach out to others that I find. I get shot for it...alot, but sometimes I do find a decent human being and have a conversation with them, they even join us for a while on occasion. Why is that NOT a valid DayZ experience? Just because other people's playstyles don't line up with your own, doesn't make it wrong

Please elaborate on your statement

[A9Carlos 3]

Funny thing for me is that in 10+ weeks of playing DayZ now I've only ever found 1 tent that had anything useful in it and only encountered 1 series of events that may have been due to scripting or hacking - but could equally have been a bug.

I don't camp in one place, I'm very active in moving, and don't have one particular place I haunt. I don't have a tent and have to scavenge after death every single time - a major part of the fun if you ask me! I also don't have one favoured server, I visit whichever takes my fancy based on game time zone/players/ping combo.

The game still works entirely as intended for me and I although I appreciate some of the OP's comments, I just have to say that from my perspective, not much of it is relevant.

Surely I can't be alone considering I play for a couple of hours almost every single evening?!?!

[The Sad Panda 113]

Couldn't they just make it that only you can only store items in your own tent?

That's one way to simplify it, but by doing so (If I understand you correctly) then you are also making the tent unlootable by other players, effectively making the tent a bank that cannot be stolen from by raiders.

Also, I haven't encountered anything in DayZ (or Base Arma) that is only lootable by a single player, so it would have to be proven possible first

[Honest Bill 37]

That's one way to simplify it, but by doing so (If I understand you correctly) then you are also making the tent unlootable by other players, effectively making the tent a bank that cannot be stolen from by raiders.

Also, I haven't encountered anything in DayZ (or Base Arma) that is only lootable by a single player, so it would have to be proven possible first

But couldn't they make it so anyone can take items out, but only one person can put items in?

[Strategos (DayZ) 190]

"No offense intended, but who is one person to decide what "The DayZ experience" is? It's a sandbox, not a linear scripted game. The experience is what you make of it. Why on Earth is the only "acceptable" experience to be a lone wolf stranded out in the middle of nowhere."

I think the point is that Dayz can offer an amazing experience, as a sandbox survival game. But people being people always take the line of least resistance. If you immerse yourself in the game and play it "as intended*" its incredible. The more you undermine that the more it becomes something else. It's still fun but in a different way, and certainly in a less stressful way.

The first week or two I played Dayz were frustrating, but they were scary! The uncertaintity , the fear and the confusion made for an incredible experience. The first time I encountered another survivor, incredible. The first time I killed a guy I was riddled with guilt. Feelings no other game has ever managed to create.

One day i got lost for two hours and gradually worked out my orienteering skills and found my destination, it was amazingly rewarding. The first time I stumbled across a vehicle - a real highlight. It goes on and on.

But new players have guides, out of game maps, loot maps, vehicle spawn maps. They loose so much by not diving in at the deep end and experiencing all of that.

* As Intended. Well who can say what is intended ? Well Rocket for one. If you read what he says about the game you will see its not supposed to be easy! And if you look at the mechanics he has introduced... you start to get an idea of what is "intended". For instance direct chat. I've written whole threads on just this subject , the jist of which of which is , if you play just using direct chat a world of amazing game-play experiences occur. Things I've never experienced in ANY other game. But why would you use it ? TS allows you to talk to your mates anywhere and using direct chat only puts you at a huge tactical disadvantage. But obviously Rocket intends people to use direct chat otherwise why bother restricting in game communication in this way.

[The Sad Panda 113]

But couldn't they make it so anyone can take items out, but only one person can put items in?

See: Keeping tent owner restricted to safe areas / logged out / tent owner is on 2nd CD Key, and kept logged out and invulnerable

[Honest Bill 37]

See: Keeping tent owner restricted to safe areas / logged out / tent owner is on 2nd CD Key, and kept logged out and invulnerable

Yeah i see your point now..

I'll think about it and come back to you haha

[syncmaster (DayZ) 63]

See: Keeping tent owner restricted to safe areas / logged out / tent owner is on 2nd CD Key, and kept logged out and invulnerable

I don't know what sucks more. The fact that there seems to be never ending loopholes to destroy every game or the fact that people already can name the next one before it even exists.

I wish people would just stop breaking games but that will never happen. Just goes to show that you can never have a true sandbox, there have to be some rules and limitations.

[mrducky (DayZ) 33]

• Permadeath: People are specifically organising their game to avoid this mechanic.
  

People will usually opt for the easiest and most obvious solution to a problem.

For example, you die in DayZ. Clearly you want to get the items you previously had or better. You know you can get the stuff by running 10 minutes to your corpse to get them. Or do you instead pretend to be dumber than you are - to not know where you died - and to go looking for the stuff elsewhere? Some might do that, but most won't. Because it is "artificial stupidity".

If in any game, you have two weapons, a crappy weapon A (say, a pistol) and a awesome weapon B (say, a machine gun) - how many of the players will intentionally use the pistol only when they have a better alternative? Very few.

Or even in real life, if your sports team is clearly winning a match, for example in football - do you go and kick the ball in your own goal just to make the game more interesting? You know, to just add to the possibility of losing instead of winning? Of course you don't!

The same applies in DayZ. As long as the game mechanics allow people to take the easy way to reach their goal, they will usually do just that. People who take the optimal (and legit) choice to succeed in the game are not flawed, it is the game mechanics that are flawed if anything. And if such mechanics really ruin the game, then they should be fixed.

• Scavenging: This is a grey area, and comes in a variety of forms. Loot maps, server hopping and camping specific locations to get respawning equipment, and clan stockpiling.
  

I hope new players would understand to stay away from the loot maps, at least for a while. As they'll be missing a great deal of that exploration if they do. But still, it's their own choice. And there is really no way to prevent that, not unless the game randomly generates the content. For those who have played this game long enough, the loot maps are worthless anyway - as then you already know all of that without needing any maps.

Also, at that point, the exploration no longer offers new experiences - when "you've seen it all", you don't see anything interesting or fun in exploring the map anymore. The game shifts from that wandering and exploration to more of a farming or base-building. And perhaps the game should do just that! It's a new form of gameplay that lasts longer than the exploration in a static map...

(Now, if the map wasn't static and the same every time, then things might be different.)

• Stark finiteness of resources: Item duping, clan camps with all sorts of vehicles, unlimited ammo bugs.
  

Well, I do hope the duping and infinite ammo bugs and such would get fixed. I would not mind knowing that my assault rifle might actually sometimes run out of ammo. (Note, I'm not duping, but I certainly have no problem with ammo due to "tactical reloads").

Also, it should be noted that the game just keeps spawning more and more of loot inside the game. It will be a tricky thing to balance all of that so that rare does not mean "next to impossible to find", but at the same time, still actually remains rare. You know: rare today, an every household item tomorrow - if more of those things just spawn spawn spawn.

• Disorientation/isolation: Some people just come right out and say they don't want this
  

If that's not what people want, that's their choice. I see no harm in that. (Personally I found the intial part of disorientation and exploration in the game most fun - but people have different preferences.)

• Spontenaeity of random social experiences: Part of this, I think, stems from the other aspects of "not playing DayZ". A lot of people are complaining that "everyone just shoots on sight".
  

Obviously those that are not here for the "DayZ experience" as you put it, are probably more eager to just shoot on sight. But also, this applies to those who were here for the DayZ experience, but have now exhausted what it had to offer. I would love to have the same experience I had in the intial days of playing DayZ... But... I realize that just isn't possible anymore.

No more new content, no more super deadly zed infested new areas to explore, nothing more to gain by teaming up with someone - you're teaming up only to lose all you have. The game is just unable to offer a sensible DayZ experience at that point. The game has the same content, the same difficulty level, etc. for all of the players. In order to still allow new players to get in, the bar cannot be set too high. But at the same time, the high end players are now left with nothing to do in realm of the "DayZ experience". So they go for the next best thing the game can offer. The loot farming and the cherno bean wars. By doing that, they obviously unfortunately interfere with the other kind of experience.

All of this might change in the future standalone. Or it might not. We'll just have to wait and see.

PS. I hope to see if the re-introduced bandit skin is able to bring back some of the "good old days", when even the armed survivors were still willing to sometimes risk an encounter with each other. (Although, I doubt the difference will be anything significant. It won't change the fundamentals of only having everything to lose on the encounter, and nothing to gain.)