Thermal sight needs to be removed

[Zeromentor 169]

Please read my post before you post a response. It makes you look silly when you argue against a point I didn't make.

"You keep mentioning dupers… what do you think would happen in a dupe/hack/bug free environment? Almost every single L85 would remain in circulation while more and more would be found."

Dupers won't matter when they erase the database in the full release. In a dupe free environment, not everyone will have access to the gun. And not every person can claim or reclaim a weapon from a dead body. Many people log off when they take fire, and when they die the body sinks into the ground. Sometimes the gun is in a tent, or vehicle, and them being destroyed causes a loss of the gun.

People dying and never going to reclaim their body, or the journey back taking too long causing the body to disappear is another thing. Simply, just because you can find them, doesn't mean they stay around forever. Some people will quit, some servers will go down, and sometimes clans just stop playing and their stuff disappears a few days later.

Needing to reexplain, as you didn't read what I said, "L85s are suppose to be extremely rare".

That means their isn't one for everyone. Without dupes, many people don't find loads of weapons or gear that others claim to have tons of. And of the hundreds of FN Fals and Bizons I have found, the dozens of M14s and the single digit AS50s and M107s, as well as the handfull of LMGs near crashed helios, I have never once found an L85. FN Fal with nightvision? Yep. But never an L85.

Every time I die I go crash site hunting, as the FN Fal is my favorite weapon. You'd think I would have found an L85 after 2 months. Not everyone is so lucky.

[derrida (DayZ) 18]

Agree. Thermal takes away 90% of the skill involved with sniping. Unless duping/hacking get fixed (which will likely never happen until standalone), the best fix would just be to remove it from the game.

I also agree that in the long term, something needs to be done to "bleed out" items from the game. Right now, unless a body is hidden, items continue to remain and spawn into the game, making the average value of everyone's items go up. The fastest way to get rare items now is to kill other snipers rather than try to find them yourself. Items in this game have an economy, just like any other MMO. Long term, something should be done to deal with inflation, or it will only be so long before everyone has the highest end gear in the game (even if it's legitimately obtained).

Edited August 11, 2012 by derrida

[Falcrist 119]

Dupers won't matter when they erase the database in the full release.

Since I'm not talking about dupers, they also don't matter to my post.

In a dupe free environment, not everyone will have access to the gun. And not every person can claim or reclaim a weapon from a dead body. Many people log off when they take fire, and when they die the body sinks into the ground.

…which is a bug. You even quoted me saying dupe/hack/bug free environment. Why is this so hard to understand?

Sometimes the gun is in a tent, or vehicle, and them being destroyed causes a loss of the gun.

That would be an extraordinarily rare occurance. Currently people destroy tents full of gear without taking anything because they assume it's all duped and/or hacked in, and because they can just dupe that kind of gear anyway.

People dying and never going to reclaim their body

Again, very rare when the person killed has an L85.

Some people will quit, some servers will go down, and

How often do you seriously think servers go down? When servers do go down, clans that play on them usually have enough notice to move their gear to another server.

sometimes clans just stop playing and their stuff disappears a few days later.

You actually think entire clans will quit suddenly? No. Clans will drift in and out of the game, but I doubt you'll ever see an entire clan just stop playing all at the same time.

As a clan starts to thin out, you'll see the players who are left gain more and more access to high end gear, including L85s. Some of the guys will certainly log out with the gear on them, but if they know they're quitting they're highly likely to donate it to someone else.

just because you can find them, doesn't mean they stay around forever.

They don't need to stay around forever. They need to stay around long enough that the number of them leaving circulation is smaller than the number entering circulation.

And the vast VAST majority of them will remain in circulation for a very long time. Everything in the game will become more and more common as time goes by, but the high end gear will feel the full effect of this inflation.

Needing to reexplain, as you didn't read what I said, "L85s are suppose to be extremely rare".

1) It doesn't matter how rare they are. They shouldn't be in the game in the first place.

2) They won't be rare after item inflation takes its course. After a few months, I would expect most clans to have several of them.

[GodOfGrain 191]

you can't design a game around exploits.

If the weapon would be rare as intended it would be allright.

[Falcrist 119]

you can't design a game around exploits.

If the weapon would be rare as intended it would be allright.

If it spawns, and is recoverable from dead bodies, there will be inflation, and it won't be rare after a while.

If there was a mechanic that removed them from circulation somehow, they would maintain their rarity, but they still have no place in this game.

Regardless of their actual rarity, their inclusion in this game is both detrimental to gameplay, and unrealistic.

[Zeromentor 169]

Since I'm not talking about dupers, they also don't matter to my post.

…which is a bug. You even quoted me saying dupe/hack/bug free environment. Why is this so hard to understand?

That would be an extraordinarily rare occurance. Currently people destroy tents full of gear without taking anything because they assume it's all duped and/or hacked in, and because they can just dupe that kind of gear anyway.

Again, very rare when the person killed has an L85.

How often do you seriously think servers go down? When servers do go down, clans that play on them usually have enough notice to move their gear to another server.

You actually think entire clans will quit suddenly? No. Clans will drift in and out of the game, but I doubt you'll ever see an entire clan just stop playing all at the same time.

As a clan starts to thin out, you'll see the players who are left gain more and more access to high end gear, including L85s. Some of the guys will certainly log out with the gear on them, but if they know they're quitting they're highly likely to donate it to someone else.

They don't need to stay around forever. They need to stay around long enough that the number of them leaving circulation is smaller than the number entering circulation.

And the vast VAST majority of them will remain in circulation for a very long time. Everything in the game will become more and more common as time goes by, but the high end gear will feel the full effect of this inflation.

1) It doesn't matter how rare they are. They shouldn't be in the game in the first place.

2) They won't be rare after item inflation takes its course. After a few months, I would expect most clans to have several of them.

Ugh, 1. Not everything I say is a debate made against you. Sometimes I reemphasize a point. Sometimes it is a point OTHERS, like you, are making.

2. People don't always loot bodies. Most snipers pop someone and leave the corpse there to attract other people so they can get more kills.

3. Inflation WILL happen. But the extreme rarity means they will be RARE. Find a few? Cool. Hope you don't die, lose your tent, or get your truck blown up. I also hope you never get killed by anyone that just wants a kill. People do it all the time, I had a guy with a Lee Enfield kill me with a shot to the back of my head, eventhough I had far better gear, he didn't even touch my stuff. (Note: My buddy tracked him down and planted an .50 cal into his ass)

4. "You keep mentioning dupers… what do you think would happen in a dupe/hack/bug free environment?" Is met with, "Dupers won't matter when they erase the database in the full release." which is what you said. Just because I say something doesn't mean I am debating you. Sometimes people quote to back up what they are about to say, or argue points made. Stop being so defensive. In some places I agree, in others I disagree. I am making my own point, and I don't even know why I try.

I was in the middle of writing something, and then said, 'fuck it'. Why do I even bother? I can say the same thing a million times, agree without saying, "HELLO I SUPPORT AND AGREE WITH THIS ONE POINT MADE" and unless I highlight it, type "+1" and "lol" after every sentence, people think I'm being sarcastic or arguing with them. Fuck it.

Thermal-sighted L85 will not be removed unless they are replaced. THERE WILL BE THERMALS.

Learn to deal with it, or go to your mother's grave and cry like a panzy. I have nothing else to say to you, nor anyone like you. I will now show open verbal hostility to anyone that asks for thermals to be removed.

EDIT: Oh, and I didn't see your next post. "Unrealistic"? Really? Yeah, because when a military aircraft goes down, everything explodes into a million pieces and nothing is recoverable. Better tell North Korea or China, because their best way of stealing tech from the West is by knocking out aircraft or salvaging tech from downed aircraft. Pakistan better be notified as well.

I mean, the zombies survived the crash, but I guess human bones are so much stronger than METAL.

EDIT2: Oh hey, I can buy a thermal sight for 2,000 USD. Look at that, night vision goggles for 2,000 USD as well. But that is unrealistic, as military organizations can't have them, so how can civilians right?

EDIT3: Unrealistic, this is funny http://defense-update.com/20110216_tws.html

And that's just the US military. God only knows how many british, french, belgian, german or czech forces were in the area.

Edited August 11, 2012 by Zeromentor

[ozwald 14]

I agree, its extremely overpowered as a spotting tool.

[Falcrist 119]

Ugh, 1. Not everything I say is a debate made against you. Sometimes I reemphasize a point. Sometimes it is a point OTHERS, like you, are making.

4. "You keep mentioning dupers… what do you think would happen in a dupe/hack/bug free environment?" Is met with, "Dupers won't matter when they erase the database in the full release." which is what you said. Just because I say something doesn't mean I am debating you. Sometimes people quote to back up what they are about to say, or argue points made. Stop being so defensive. In some places I agree, in others I disagree. I am making my own point, and I don't even know why I try.

If it's not a response to a post you're quoting, please don't put it directly under the quote as if it is.

2. People don't always loot bodies. Most snipers pop someone and leave the corpse there to attract other people so they can get more kills.

You're not going to see L85 users sniped dead in the middle of a noob traffic area very often, because they're unlikely to be wandering around in the middle of a field, and because they have a freaking L85 to scan the treeline with.

That aside, the snipers currently don't loot because they can just dupe the gear anyway. When gear becomes harder to acquire, you won't see this behavior anymore. Corpses will get looted.

Does that mean L85s will never be left to rot on someone's corpse? No, but it will be a very very rare occurrence. That's the point. There will always be more L85s entering circulation than there will be leaving circulation. It's only a matter of time before they become common.

3. Inflation WILL happen. But the extreme rarity means they will be RARE.

It doesn't matter how rare their droprate is. Again, inflation means that it's only a matter of time before they become common.

Thermal-sighted L85 will not be removed unless they are replaced. THERE WILL BE THERMALS. Learn to deal with it, or go to your mother's grave and cry like a panzy.

Says who? The game is still in alpha, and you're assuming that this can't change? That seems a bit silly.

I have nothing else to say to you, nor anyone like you. I will now show open verbal hostility to anyone that asks for thermals to be removed.

Why? Are you incapable of having a civil conversation? I'd suggest simply not responding anymore

EDIT: Oh, and I didn't see your next post. "Unrealistic"? Really? Yeah, because when a military aircraft goes down, everything explodes into a million pieces and nothing is recoverable. Better tell North Korea or China, because their best way of stealing tech from the West is by knocking out aircraft or salvaging tech from downed aircraft. Pakistan better be notified as well.

I mean, the zombies survived the crash, but I guess human bones are so much stronger than METAL.

Yes, Thermal scopes would probably shatter in an impact like that… IF they were on the chopper to begin with.

China and North Korea certainly recover their fair share of downed equipment, but how much of that equipment do you think is perfectly in tact? It's not like you can't reverse engineer a damaged system if you have a team of engineers to do so.

Once again, I don't think it's realistic to find a completely undamaged thermal scope in a chopper wreck, especially since the scope is fictional in the first place.

Edited August 11, 2012 by Falcrist

[Zeromentor 169]

If it's not a response to a post you're quoting, please don't put it directly under the quote as if it is.

You're not going to see L85 users sniped dead in the middle of a noob traffic area very often, because they're unlikely to be wandering around in the middle of a field, and because they have a freaking L85 to scan the treeline with.

That aside, the snipers currently don't loot because they can just dupe the gear anyway. When gear becomes harder to acquire, you won't see this behavior anymore. Corpses will get looted.

Does that mean L85s will never be left to rot on someone's corpse? No, but it will be a very very rare occurrence. That's the point. There will always be more L85s entering circulation than there will be leaving circulation. It's only a matter of time before they become common.

It doesn't matter how rare their droprate is. Again, inflation means that it's only a matter of time before they become common.

Says who? The game is still in alpha, and you're assuming that this can't change? That seems a bit silly.

Why? Are you incapable of having a civil conversation? I'd suggest simply not responding anymore

Yes, Thermal scopes would probably shatter in an impact like that… IF they were on the chopper to begin with.

China and North Korea certainly recover their fair share of downed equipment, but how much of that equipment do you think is perfectly in tact? It's not like you can't reverse engineer a damaged system if you have a team of engineers to do so.

Once again, I don't think it's realistic to find a completely undamaged thermal scope in a chopper wreck, especially since the scope is fictional in the first place.

A lot actually remains intact. Infact, many times the US military hits their own crashed aircraft and vehicles with cruise missiles when they can't drag the wreck away.

Scopes aren't as well, weak, as you seem to think they are. I'd have to hammer mine against hard objects over and over again just to break them. And unless something vital is destroyed, you can put loose parts back together. Also think of it this way, 7 zombies, 3-4 guns. Something was destroyed in the crash. You don't find a ton of working stuff, and those walking zombies sure did survive, so that'll mean that hardware probably made it out as well.

I'm not capable of having a civil conversation, no. I have a short temper, and people tend to set me off rather quickly. And the sight is fictional? Cool, better tell the militaries of the world they have been giving thermal weapon sights that don't exist to their soldiers. And we aren't reverse engineering it. We are USING it. We aren't building it, we are using parts found on a wreckage. Turns out, they work. Who knew?

Oh and my favorite part, "Says who? The game is still in alpha, and you're assuming that this can't change? That seems a bit silly."

Look down.

Little bit further.

One more line, please. You'll find your answer soon enough.

Edited August 11, 2012 by Zeromentor

[Banicks 55]

Love it.

Bandits will tell the Survivors to STFU when they are being sniped.

The L85A2 is the sniper locator and leads to them being sniped.

My response to you bandit snipers? STFU and take your own advice.

[ixtilion 39]

course you can. if you get caught by thermal you're not concealing well enough. try harder.

works fine. working as intended.

don't be butthurt.

it's not about being butthurt, it's about being OBJECTIVE.

A thermal scope clearly breaks the game, and people like YOU, that scream "butthurt" at every complain without analyzing it objectively are the ones that make this community this bad.

So, does your brain understand that being able to have the all seeing eye scope is game-breaking?

[Zeromentor 169]

it's not about being butthurt, it's about being OBJECTIVE.

A thermal scope clearly breaks the game, and people like YOU, that scream "butthurt" at every complain without analyzing it objectively are the ones that make this community this bad.

So, does your brain understand that being able to have the all seeing eye scope is game-breaking?

Analyzing.

Analyzing.

Analyzing.

BUTTHURT PLAYER DETECTED.

[...] complaint* [...]

Scope isn't all seeing. Walk into cherno and try to spot people before they pop you. Scope works great in areas filled with little cover and a lot of concealment, but it is nearly useless in enclosed or urban spaces.

Edited August 11, 2012 by Zeromentor

[Falcrist 119]

A lot actually remains intact. Infact, many times the US military hits their own crashed aircraft and vehicles with cruise missiles when they can't drag the wreck away.

As I said, it's entirely possible to reverse engineer damaged equipment. It's also possible to rebuild quite a bit, assuming you have the tools and expertise. That's a very good reason to destroy downed equipment.

You're not repairing anything here. You're just finding working thermal scopes in a heli crash.

Scopes aren't as well as you seem to think they are. I'd have to hammer mine against hard objects over and over again just to break them. And unless something vital is destroyed, you can put loose parts back together. Also think of it this way, 7 zombies, 3-4 guns. Something was destroyed in the crash. You don't find a ton of working stuff, and those walking zombies sure did survive, so that'll mean that hardware probably made it out as well.

The impact of a crash is a lot more damaging than banging your gun on a rock (assuming you actually did that IRL). A simple drop from 3 feet has severely damaged one of my scopes, and it don't have sensitive NV and thermal systems.

Once again, finding a working thermal scope in a helicopter crash seems highly unrealistic to me.

I'm not capable of having a civil conversation, no. I have a short temper, and people tend to set me off rather quickly.

This seems like sarcasm to me, but in case it's not, I'd strongly recommend staying away from the forums from now on if they anger you that much.

Oh and my favorite part, "Says who? The game is still in alpha, and you're assuming that this can't change? That seems a bit silly."

Look down.

Little bit further.

One more line, please. You'll find your answer soon enough.

I don't follow you, but I also don't think it matters. The only valid answer to my question would be Rocket, and even if he said something about always wanting thermal in the game (and I'm pretty sure he never has), there's always room for him to change his mind, especially if the community want's something.

EDIT____

I just remembered something: You probably have a signature. I turned those off as soon as I became active on these forums.

Edited August 11, 2012 by Falcrist

[Zeromentor 169]

As I said, it's entirely possible to reverse engineer damaged equipment. It's also possible to rebuild quite a bit, assuming you have the tools and expertise. That's a very good reason to destroy downed equipment.

You're not repairing anything here. You're just finding working thermal scopes in a heli crash.

The impact of a crash is a lot more damaging than banging your gun on a rock (assuming you actually did that IRL). A simple drop from 3 feet has severely damaged one of my scopes, and it don't have sensitive NV and thermal systems.

Once again, finding a working thermal scope in a helicopter crash seems highly unrealistic to me.

This seems like sarcasm to me, but in case it's not, I'd strongly recommend staying away from the forums from now on if they anger you that much.

I don't follow you, but I also don't think it matters. The only valid answer to my question would be Rocket, and even if he said something about always wanting thermal in the game (and I'm pretty sure he never has), there's always room for him to change his mind, especially if the community want's something.

EDIT____

I just remembered something: You probably have a signature. I turned those off as soon as I became active on these forums.

There is no balance, other than the balance you will put in. I will put in the features required for you to either destroy this world into mindless PVP, or create something else. Don't look to me for that balance, because I will not give you it.

-Rocket

For ease of finding.

EDIT: Oh and forums don't set me off. People do. If I were to try to find a place without people, I'd have to fill the area with landmines and haphazard waste sites to keep people from coming near. No, I don't feel like investing the time. So instead, I get mad, vent and calm down. Luckily for people on the forums, I can go do something to calm my anger.

No so luckily for people ingame running with me, poor decision and stupid mistakes cause me to plant a bullet in their skull. I did the same in Eve as well.

Edited August 11, 2012 by Zeromentor

[ixtilion 39]

Analyzing.

Analyzing.

Analyzing.

BUTTHURT PLAYER DETECTED.

[...] complaint* [...]

Scope isn't all seeing. Walk into cherno and try to spot people before they pop you. Scope works great in areas filled with little cover and a lot of concealment, but it is nearly useless in enclosed or urban spaces.

It doesn't take a genius to switch weapons if you enter a CQ enviroment, anyway its also useful in cities, you can just get to the top of a building and scan the city.

A thermal scope, like it or not, is overpowered as you can see in those videos. It tells you where everyone is within your range

Edited August 11, 2012 by ixtilion

[derrida (DayZ) 18]

I love it when people take isolated quotes from Rocket out of context, and cite them like God. Ever wonder why he stopped posting so much? Because of shits like you.

Edited August 11, 2012 by derrida

[Falcrist 119]

There is no balance, other than the balance you will put in. I will put in the features required for you to either destroy this world into mindless PVP, or create something else. Don't look to me for that balance, because I will not give you it.

-Rocket

For ease of finding.

Thanks… but how does this relate to my posts?

I'm pretty sure the point of my posts wasn't about balance. Hold on, let me check again… nope.

I'm not bothered with balance, as I've said. It's fine that some things are more powerful than others. I'm concerned about the gameplay as a whole, and this thing has a huge impact on it. It's not a positive impact, either.

Edited August 11, 2012 by Falcrist

[Zeromentor 169]

It doesn't take a genius to switch weapons if you enter a CQ enviroment, anyway its also useful in cities, you can just get to the top of a building and scan the city.

A thermal scope, like it or not, is overpowered as you can see in those videos. It tells you where everyone is within your range

Obviously, then, the Ghillie suit, all .50 rifles, all high explosives, vehicles and hueys are OP, as well as NVG and anything that even remotely resembles a firearm.

I love it when people take isolated quotes from Rocket out of context, and cite them like God. Ever wonder why he stopped posting so much? Because of shits like you.

Out of context? Sure. Cite it like God? Rocket is no God. But he is the creator of DayZ. If he wants it added, it will be unless the engine doesn't allow it. If he doesn't want it, it doesn't go in. It is up to him in the end, not you, not me. Personally, I like to believe he stopped posting so often because he is busy doing things in real life.

But for your amusement, "All hail our great zombie overlord, the almighty Dean 'Rocket' Hall."

Thanks… but how does this relate to my posts?

I'm pretty sure I didn't say anything about balance. Hold on, let me check again… nope.

I'm not bothered with balance, as I've said. It's fine that some things are more powerful than others. I'm concerned about the gameplay as a whole, and this thing has a huge impact on it. It's not a positive impact, either.

Remove the L85 because it is what? Overpowered? No... That can't have anything to do with balance. Oh no, never. Never.

How would removing the L85 make a positive impact? Ghillies would have less counters against them. 1 less, that is rare, and beyond duping nearly impossible to find. Wait, that would mean you want some kind of... should I say it? Balance?

[random_stuff 6]

I think they should remove it.

[Falcrist 119]

Remove the L85 because it is what?

Because it basically eliminates a huge chunk of the gameplay (spotting) by providing a built in texture hack. If you really think that's a positive thing (lolz), then I'd also suggest installing a wallhack.

Don't worry, wall hacks will be rare, so that makes it ok. :thumbsup:

[Hawk24 94]

It's just a regular gun (..) except it has a thermal sight.

DOH!

[Zeromentor 169]

Because it basically eliminates a huge chunk of the gameplay (spotting) by providing a built in texture hack. If you really think that's a positive thing (lolz), then I'd also suggest installing a wallhack.

Don't worry, wall hacks will be rare, so that makes it ok. :thumbsup:

Wait, let me get this straight... Thermal can see THROUGH things? What?

I just thought that it made the surroundings a different color than the people in, near or on said surroundings. I was under the impression that the L85 made concealment useless. Obviously, in this new patch, Thermals see EVERYONE all the time, and even place beacons over their heads for miles that anyone can see. A tell-tale billboard of sorts.

Well jeez, you convinced me.

I should use wallhacks.

Infact, I'm going to go to Battleye and DDOS every server they have so everyone can use wallhacks and make the game fair for everyone.

Not the direction you wished for me to take, was it?

EDIT: Because people don't 'get' sarcasm on the internet, I do not condone hacking of any kind, I will not be using hacks, and I will not DDOS anything.

Edited August 11, 2012 by Zeromentor

[derrida (DayZ) 18]

the points that have been mentioned:

1. realism - scope would 99% never survive crash

2. duping/hacking - until fixed, everyone has one

3. economy - until they get rid of inflation, everyone will have one

4. gameplay - it takes away skill from having to actually use your eyes/ears to locate people

only one of those has anything remotely to do with balance. The game will never be "balanced," but it will/should always reward players with higher skill. Every time a point gets countered that you don't like, you just switch to another one.

[Falcrist 119]

Wait, let me get this straight... Thermal can see THROUGH things? What?

Looks like someone doesn't know what a texture hack is. ;)

It's ok, bro. Everyone has to learn at some point.

[derrida (DayZ) 18]

-_-

Edited August 11, 2012 by derrida