Improving the respawn system

[pack.wolf 0]

First of all, this one is about gathering ideas about how the respawn system can be improved so we can submit a well thought out suggestion in the appropriate forum further down the road. It is not a "bandits vs survivors"-thread. It's not about balancing or PVP. If you want to make your voices heard concerning any of that, there's quite a few threads around that cover these topics.

A lot of people seem to think the respawn system is flawed. I count myself among them. But there is no apparent agreement on how exactly it is broken or how it can be fixed.

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Here's my thoughts on the subject. It's exploitable and it doesn't make people care for their own life. There's three things I feel would add to improving the game which would not favor any play style (at this point I'd again like to remind everyone, if you want to discuss PVP this is not the place).

1) Add respawn time. A flat amount for everyone, no matter what you did, no matter how long you revived, there should be a minimum x minutes respawn timer before you can continue play after you died.

It would make you value your life more, even if you only have shitty gear. I think that's what this mod should be about: Survival, by whatever means you deem appropriate and effective.

At the moment your life has only as much value to you, the player, as the gear you have found. If I total my car in RL I'm not gonna be "well, might as well commit suicide", I'm much more like to be "holy shit I'm glad I'm still alive". I think this should be reflected in the world of DayZ too.

2) Add additional time if you die often. This would serve to encourage people to learn the game and get good at keeping alive.

It is my believe that every case someone dies ingame, it's their own fault (or a bug, but well, it's alpha...). People should be punished for their faults. People should also be rewarded for overcoming their faults and learning the game, but I think the need to increase the value a player places on his newly spawned character through a flat minimum respawn time outweighs the benefits of rewarding them with no or lower respawn time if they smarten up.

For every time a player has died within his last x hours of play, he should get y additional minutes added to his respawn timer. If he manages to stay alive for a while, it should be reduced back to the minimum amount.

3) Different starting equipment. The starting equipment should contain everything you need to survive for a short time, and everything you need to get familiar with the basic concepts of the mod.

Which in my opinion means one of each of full canteen, tin of beans, bandage, painkillers, morphine, matchbox, wood plus the Makarov and 2 spare mags.

Why do I think having a matchbox from the get go isn't OP: you'll still need to collect wood and if you want to hunt animals you'll still need to find a knife.

Maybe add one flare, I'm not sure about that. What's your take on this loadout?

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Something else I'd like to get opinions on:

Would you like to see your spawning location change based on where you died? I'm thinking along the lines of halfway between the spot of beach you would normally spawn and the point of your death.

It might be a nice feature if you venture far from the coast and don't want to have to travel for ages to get back to your buddies/gear/favorite loot location, but it might change the balance in favor of the survivors, so I'm not convinced it's a good idea.

Here's one more (and final) reminder: this point might be especially tempting to start a bandit/survivor discussion. Please don't. Keep your answer to this one short and reasoned. Go all out on the other stuff if you must ;)

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So here it is, ideas, suggestions, get at it!

- Alex

[fecesreturns 6]

Completely random spawn locations.

Otherwise I like everything else.

[MrBloodworth 1]

Re-spawn time adds nothing to improving game play. In fact, your theory is already in play, due to the Receiving data meta game of excitement and Bio breaks.

Re-spawn system needs to be improved in terms of responsiveness, and ease. I should not need to "disconnect" 3 times to Re-spawn. When the "you died" screen comes up, I should be able to hit Re-spawn.

It would also be nice if the death screen had a "time survived" timer.

[pack.wolf 0]

"Time survived"-timer on the death screen sounds pretty cool. You should make that a suggestion on it's own. You'd definitely have my support.

I agree that "waiting for server/receiving data" is some kind of flat respawn timer, but for one I hope that gets fixed and also it lacks the psychological effect a "you died. now you got to wait"-timer has, because it's perceived as just a technologically induced annoyance.

My basic reasoning for a flat respawn timer is that I think the free starting equipment shouldn't be free. If you were alive it would take time to gather the stuff you get given by the game. It's basically a reward for dying, I'd like to see it the other way round.

[Pat_the_Bunny 4]

I like what you said about starting with less equipment, and the respawn timer wouldn't be a bad idea if it didn't get out of hand, but you're talking about starting with x minutes and then adding more time from there as a punishment for dying, which wouldn't encourage people to get better, it would just piss them off and they'd quit.

Sure, we can sit here and say, "Good! If they don't want to get better then fuck 'em if they can't handle it!", but this is a terrible way to market the game.

[pack.wolf 0]

The details are not set in stone in any way. You are making a good point in such a system scaring away new players.

Probably should have used seconds instead of minutes. Details like that are probably best decided by the people implementing the stuff, i.e. rocket.

Maybe some sort of new player protection could help with that. So for your first x deaths you don't get additional time, and for every death from the xth to the yth you don't get the full penalty but only an increasing fraction of it. Something among those lines.

Plus, it could be capped. So no matter how often you die, you never have to wait longer than z. This could also be lower for newer players.

Ironing out faults like this is why I need your input, so thanks for your response ;)

[MrBloodworth 1]

I don't personally play games to be punished though. I feel, in the tradition of roguelikes. The death is enough. No need to complicate it when it does not seem to add any value. You will just loose players.

[Guest]

I agree that there should be a delay between when you die and when you begin your "new" life. Although the current system puts a strain on the HIVE server, it has the benefit of having a built in consequence for death that I don't think should be removed. If people could just die and pop back in whenever, life would be further cheapened.

If it was unnecessary to wait for the HIVE server to return data for a new character, then I think the respawn time should be roughly what it takes to get into a server today: 3-5 minutes. I do not think players should be penalized for dying however. That simply discourages people from playing period, rather than trying new things. A player may genuinely lack the skill to play the game and should not be penalized for that. Their penalty would come in the amount of time they spent dead (that is, a person who died 5 times with a flat respawn time will have less play time than the person who died once. Not to mention the reset to the default position and gear)

As far as spawn location, I believe the locations along the coast are fine how it is. Maybe add an additional spawn towards the middle of the map. The current system means everyone has a relatively fair chance starting out. Random spawns all over the map means that someone could pop in front of you or you get a lucky spawn at an airfield or military post. As it is, everyone has a chance for fast loot within the large cities. It also adds again to the consequence. If you had random spawns, the respawn spam would be abused further to try and get a good position inland.

Going back to gear, I don't think the default gear rewards you at all for dying. In order to survive for any period of time, you need to gather more supplies. The default loadout allows for numerous ways to begin your new life. You have enough supplies to leg it to a location inland, be unlucky with the loot that you're finding, allows you defend/attack against other players, or assist others who might be in trouble. The starting gear allows you to participate in most of the mods basic features. In order to excel you need to scavenge.

Really the only modification to the spawning system that I would like to see is for an alternative way to get off the beach. Although I've never been camped or sniped on the beach, I know it's pretty common. Providing some sort of alternative or protection would help. This could be some sort of tunnel-like passages to the treeline scattered throughout, working dirt bikes with little fuel, or zombies scattered about that would be attracted to the sniping locations. In addition, some sort of in-game method of getting a group together. I don't think there should be a grouping system per se that allows you to pop in on group members. Perhaps utilizing ArmA's squad/fireteam designations to place you in the same group and waypoint the members in that group when they're X meters away.

[MrBloodworth 1]

If it was unnecessary to wait for the HIVE server to return data for a new character' date=' then I think the respawn time should be roughly what it takes to get into a server today: 3-5 minutes.

[/quote']

Why? What does this possibly add to game play? Logging in right now is simply an exercise in frustration. Why enshrine this in game rules?

This isn't a Session based shooter when when you hit re-spawn you can spawn on your buddy. You start over, and possibly hours of progression is lost, hours from where you were.

Unneeded complication does not make things "Hardcore" it just makes it frustrating.

[Mastariata 0]

new player protection

Nope.

[Stick32 0]

I think the random respawn idea could be good with one caveat. if you respawn in a random location you should be parachuting in and remove the announcement telling you where you are.

I like this idea because it actually kinda adds some backstory to how you ended up in your current situation. Maybe you were taking a plane to a safe zone and midflight you find out an infected had gotten aboard and things went crazy and you had to bail. Thereby, losing all your stuff and dropping you into a strange and unfamiliar land.

The more I think about this idea the more I like it.

[Guest]

If it was unnecessary to wait for the HIVE server to return data for a new character' date=' then I think the respawn time should be roughly what it takes to get into a server today: 3-5 minutes.

[/quote']

Why? What does this possibly add to game play? Logging in right now is simply an exercise in frustration. Why enshrine this in game rules?

This isn't a Session based shooter when when you hit re-spawn you can spawn on your buddy. You start over, and possibly hours of progression is lost, hours from where you were.

Unneeded complication does not make things "Hardcore" it just makes it frustrating.

As I had mentioned, it keeps the consequence intact and prepares you for how you should be playing the mod anyway: patiently. If you had instant respawns or respawns lasting a few seconds, people would would be encouraged to act before thinking, as the only penalty for failure is a few seconds. As it stands now you must take the time in consideration when you're about to take a risk. You would see more people sprinting around in the open with their pistols along the shore without a care in the world. That would against the spirit of both ArmA and Dayz methinks.

The only way a short respawn could keep the same consequence is with the aforementioned change of default gear, but that change would then restrict you from the list from my previous post.

Also, I don't consider this a shooter at all based on my play style. I consider this a survival mod. Shooting a zombie (or player) can have grave consequences of attracting more zombies or alerting other players to your position and is done as a last resort or in self defense for me.

[pack.wolf 0]

Nope.

Could you expand on that a bit? I'd like to know if you dislike the idea of a less harsh respawn penalty for new players or a respawn penalty in general.

Since you quoted my later post where I proposed some ways to lessen the penalty for new players I'm guessing the former.

Also, what are your thoughts on capping the respawn penalty for new and experienced players/just new players?

[Mastariata 0]

Nope.

Could you expand on that a bit? I'd like to know if you dislike the idea of a less harsh respawn penalty for new players or a respawn penalty in general.

Since you quoted my later post where I proposed some ways to lessen the penalty for new players I'm guessing the former.

Also' date=' what are your thoughts on capping the respawn penalty for new and experienced players/just new players?

[/quote']

I can sort of see how a different respawn time might be good. It would make players value their lives more, like you said. However, I already value my life quite a lot in this game, but I do get the feeling that others don't.

As for a respawn penalty, it should be the exact same for everyone. I don't see why new players should get a reduced penalty. On my first life I lived for like 3-4 days before being killed by the ladder bug. A new player needs to realize that if he uses his brain and his instinct he can survive.

Also the penalty being the same adds some fear into the game for said new players, especially if they spawn in Cherno and realize that they need to leave quickly.

As for capping, I do believe there should be a cap, yes. The respawn time shouldn't be too ridiculous. Imagine getting killed by a bug and having to wait for fucking ages because of it, it would just piss you off quite nicely.

[Marou_ 1]

You should be able to choose which of the available locations you spawn at, because everyone does anyways. Probably part of the reason the hive is always overloaded.

[DudelyPowers 0]

"Punishing" players for failing is one of the hallmarks of terrible game design. It's basically the game telling you "do it again, stupid," and that's just awful. It's hostile to new players and inconvenient to everyone else.

[[sot]sqwurl 3]

respawn = parachuting in to random part of the map

[Mastariata 0]

"Punishing" players for failing is one of the hallmarks of terrible game design. It's basically the game telling you "do it again' date=' stupid," and that's just awful. It's hostile to new players and inconvenient to everyone else.

[/quote']

You're not being punished. You're being given time to re-evaluate. You already lose everything when you die, as it should be.

[Perrywinkle 6]

1) Add respawn time.

I don't think this is a great idea. It takes so long to get into the actual game' date=' that this is unneeded punishment for people who are just trying to play. So, if someone new gets in the game and is killed by a bandit, they are punished for a PK? This won't bring people to a game which is already very difficult and niche. It would also slow down the learning curve, as new players would have to wait even longer to try something different.

2) Add additional time if you die often.

With an average life of 28 minutes, I don't think this would work as intended. People aren't going to sit at their desks contemplating "what they did wrong" and figuring out a better strategy. They are going to be clicking disconnect and trying to respawn. This happens in the game, by keeping people out of the game longer you would be slowing down the learning process.

3) Different starting equipment.

I would like to see different equipment, but what would be the point? We already are given enough to survive and gather the extra things that you mention. Matches/Wood may be a good idea (or just increasing match/wood abundance), as spawning at night into rain could guarantee an quick, shaky death.

I think as the spawning system stands right now it is very balanced. If there were random gear spawns, you would have people suicide running until they get optimal gear. If you punish people for dying they will be even more frustrating when this is coupled with the current connection issues. Varying spawns across the map would lead people to suicide spam until they are near an airfield (this may already happen) or other top-tier loot location.

[Clovis (DayZ) 1]

No to additional spawn times.

I like the random location anywhere on the map for starting. Maybe you can't spawn within so many meters of another player or right on top of some zombies though.

The equipment currently seems fine. Some slightly random equipment might be interesting.

[daedrick 90]

Well, everything you suggested I made a suggestion topic about. You guys can follow my link in my signature to get to the thread.

Your time penality is a good idea in theory, but its nullified by the already quite long server response.

[pack.wolf 0]

Actually our positions differ somewhat. The (semi)random spawning location is the thing I'm least sure about, since it might open another possibility to exploit the respawn mechanic (respawn until you end up where you want).

And I don't think starting gear should be customizeable, just slightly different from what we have now (but the same for everybody).

But it's good to see lots of people bringing forward ideas. In the end we're all just brainstorming to provide rocket with some ideas :D

[Aidan The Enforcer 1]

I don't care for the death timer, i feel it's bad enough that i died and lost my loot. as mentioned i feel it would deter new players and ones having a bad luck streak to move else where. i know when i started i got pissed just dying. If i had to wait other then the load times i would have moved on in the beginning.