God damn knockdown

[vedicardi 7]

Is there any logic to this shit? I would like this system if zombie AI wasn't totally fucked (warping all over the place, attacking through walls, etc). I totally understand that you can't do too much to fix that or improve it (the AI), but if you know it is that glitchy and unfair, don't add this fucking knockdown that just rapes for absolutely no reason, taking all logic out of the game. When you get knocked down, you have zombies on top of you so you just get knocked down again unless you have 7000+ blood and thus you die just because you weren't "lucky?" It's so god damn annoying and has ruined the game for me multiple times.

Thanks

[sgtsnug 26]

You'd find more sympathy if you lost the raged language and approached the community with a little more dignity.

Being knocked out is a annoyance I agree, something that could be tweaked but not removed.

Perhaps a pick-up item that lowers the chance from 5% down to 3%, and making the duration dependant on current blood, high blood being a short knock-out, low blood a longer one. Preventing a full health 1 hit KO by one zombie.

[sharkdog 2]

What they should implement is that if you are say: on 8000+ blood you just cannot be knocked down.

So you will be safe from knockdowns if you take care of your blood count. But once you go under the 8000 blood you get the 5% knockdown chance again.

[bondematt 0]

I could go for a tiered increase in knockdown, but I think it should start around a 3% at full blood and increase to 10% at say 4000 or less.

I actually liked 10% knockdown better, sooo many more bodies covered in revolver ammo, painkillers, and morphine. I am not looking forwards to the Mak when I die.

Plus after a few days of playing; Zombies become a non-issue unless you make a bad mistake.

[tajin 17]

Getting knocked down simply tells you one thing.... or actually two things:

a) be more careful

b) don't travel alone

I think it should stay.

[trauma.au 14]

Just died to this.... yet again.

This is the ONLY way a zombie can kill you if you're familiar with how the zombies work. That is not an angry over reaction, I have only ever been killed by a zombie by being unlucky enough to get two bad rolls of the dice in a row.

5% to knock down trigger, then a long wait to get up = one shot (even from full health).

I'm all for making the zombies more deadly, their weakness is the single biggest issue this mod has. I've thought about how it fits into the game and honestly it simply does not. I like the knock down but it can't be a roll of the dice thing, it makes the player feel powerless against it, even though the zombies are a total joke on their own merit right now they may just chance into a kill. It's like if in an MMO I did and average of 250 damage per hit but sometimes I crit for 12000.

Now for a suggestion. Implement a way to show that you are being belted around, something audio/visual similar to what is there already, but have it build up worse and worse with each successive hit to let you know you are in trouble and you need to do something before they beat you down, literally. Then either remove the second roll of the dice in favor of a fixed duration or dramatically tighten the range of time it may roll.

Edit: Arma 3 pipedream stuff ahead. I would love to see euphoria added so we could have zombies physically knock you down or make you stumble from them hitting/tackling you. If that were to happen at first I would be like, then I would be like.

[tajin 17]

Bad things happen all the time and often completely random, thats life.

Problem is that you rely on it that they don't happen to you or that you get a warning before it gets critical. Thats not how it works. A lucky blow can be fatal. You could trip over some rubble on the ground, you could loose balance or whatnot... theres always a chance for this to happen.

This is almost a non-factor if you're careful. Hell I bet one could even play the game without ever having to fight a single zombie.

[trauma.au 14]

The realism at all costs angle eh? Ok well I want the rocks that I trip over modeled into the game, I also want the zombies on top of me holding onto me while a kick and thrash for my life. When I'm not moving I'd them to stop KO'ing me through walls and then eating me while I'm out... speaking of which why can I still see when I'm unconscious, that's not realistic at all.

In all seriousness, it's about giving believable feedback for the given situation, how to communicate what is happening in game in a believable manner. You can be belted around the head in real life and you will know that you need to stop that from happening again or you will be KO'd. Given that this cannot be modeled in a believable way in game it needs game mechanics to substitute and communicate what's going on. Currently the KO's are just annoying and far too gamey. This is not a table top game, I don't want all my effort to hinge on the roll of a dice.

[tajin 17]

I don't want all my effort to hinge on the roll of a dice.

It really doesnt. What I'm saying is just that it is your very own fault if you even let it come to that.

The risk of getting knocked down can be avoided by keeping your distance to the zeds. So its not like you dont have control over it.

[Hesher (DayZ) 2]

Zombie run throe wall, knock you out, eat you. 8 hours of playing down the drain. only frustration and no satisfaction. Even on open grounds it shouldnt be a roll of the dice.

[trauma.au 14]

I don't want all my effort to hinge on the roll of a dice.

It really doesnt. What I'm saying is just that it is your very own fault if you even let it come to that.

The risk of getting knocked down can be avoided by keeping your distance to the zeds. So its not like you dont have control over it.

So I'm meant to avoid easy to kill zombies that only have a poor game mechanic on their side at all times? This last KO I had I was running backwards while killing several zombies in front, I've played enough to learn how to make them unable to hit you on the move in the open... didn't see or hear the once sprinting at me from the left though, 1 hit down I go.

A blurred screen, staggered, slowed etc. would have been fine, but put on the ground just so you can watch a group of zombies tick away at all your health is nothing but frustrating, games are not meant to piss you off. Then those times that you have just a little bit of time to save yourself after he 'wakes up' and you get the triple animation thing...... frustrating.

[tajin 17]

This last KO I had I was running backwards while killing several zombies in front' date=' I've played enough to learn how to make them unable to hit you on the move in the open... didn't see or hear the once sprinting at me from the left though, 1 hit down I go.[/quote']

Thats what I mean. Engaging them in the open is always risky. This is your choice, so live with the consequences.

That zed could've also jumped you from behind and bit you in the neck or something like that. Shit like that happens when you're not careful.

Likewise, a player could've shot you in the back seeing you fight in the open. You dont get a second chance in that case either.

You could've simply fled into a building and fought them there, minimizing the risk.

[powdered-swords 1]

I don't recall the devs ever claiming that players should be forced to team up and avoid 'lone wolfing', being alone is meant to be very difficult, but that doesn't mean being in a group should be a cakewalk, currently that's all knockdown really presents. Knockdown as it is presents no challenge to groups and instead of providing great challenge to individuals it's more of a roll of the dice or the result of the inevitable glitched zombie.

There are a couple of issues with the zombies that if corrected would make knockdown a non-issue, namely the ghosting through objects and wild zigzag running that forces you to choose between being hit or wasting tons of ammo and possibly be hit while reloading anyway. Unfortunately these issues look like they're the results of the game engine so the only thing that can be changed is the mechanics of knockdown. My suggestion would be to make pain a meter like hunger and thirst is. In addition to the visual distortion, once you reach a certain point it becomes possible to be knocked out (through fainting) with intervals increasing the more you're in pain. IMO this would still present a significant challenge, but remove some of the randomness, it could also make epi-pens more useful. Tajin pointed out that you can easily kill zombie hordes just by running into buildings and taking them on, one by one. Examples like this where something that's extremely difficult can be made into a cakewalk just by using one technique (possibly glitch/exploit) are not examples of good game design. There should be no move in a fighting game that beats all others, there should be no gun in an fps that's just as easy to acquire but is far superior to every other one. These are just examples of poor balancing. Therefore teaming up shouldn't be the magic bullet that makes knockdown a non-issue. It should make things a lot easier, but making surviving as a team dull and easy while surviving as an individual inevitably impossible is not really fun whichever way you choose to play.

[trauma.au 14]

This last KO I had I was running backwards while killing several zombies in front' date=' I've played enough to learn how to make them unable to hit you on the move in the open... didn't see or hear the once sprinting at me from the left though, 1 hit down I go.[/quote']

Thats what I mean. Engaging them in the open is always risky. This is your choice, so live with the consequences.

That zed could've also jumped you from behind and bit you in the neck or something like that. Shit like that happens when you're not careful.

Likewise, a player could've shot you in the back seeing you fight in the open. You dont get a second chance in that case either.

You could've simply fled into a building and fought them there, minimizing the risk.

You don't get it, there is no mechanic to convey what you are saying, I agree you can trip, you can get jumped and bitten from behind but when there is no good way to communicate it in game you need to make a believable substitute, a random number generator is not a believable substitute.

I don't recall the devs ever claiming that players should be forced to team up and avoid 'lone wolfing'' date=' being alone is meant to be very difficult, but that doesn't mean being in a group should be a cakewalk, currently that's all knockdown really presents. Knockdown as it is presents no challenge to groups and instead of providing great challenge to individuals it's more of a roll of the dice or the result of the inevitable glitched zombie.

There are a couple of issues with the zombies that if corrected would make knockdown a non-issue, namely the ghosting through objects and wild zigzag running that forces you to choose between being hit or wasting tons of ammo and possibly be hit while reloading anyway. Unfortunately these issues look like they're the results of the game engine so the only thing that can be changed is the mechanics of knockdown. My suggestion would be to make pain a meter like hunger and thirst is. In addition to the visual distortion, once you reach a certain point it becomes possible to be knocked out (through fainting) with intervals increasing the more you're in pain. IMO this would still present a significant challenge, but remove some of the randomness, it could also make epi-pens more useful. Tajin pointed out that you can easily kill zombie hordes just by running into buildings and taking them on, one by one. Examples like this where something that's extremely difficult can be made into a cakewalk just by using one technique (possibly glitch/exploit) are not examples of good game design. There should be no move in a fighting game that beats all others, there should be no gun in an fps that's just as easy to acquire but is far superior to every other one. These are just examples of poor balancing. Therefore teaming up shouldn't be the magic bullet that makes knockdown a non-issue. It should make things a lot easier, but making surviving as a team dull and easy while surviving as an individual inevitably impossible is not really fun whichever way you choose to play.

[/quote']

Well said, I like idea of the knockdown time being based on pain, but it can't be based on blood count as suggested earlier, it would make the knockdown at low blood redundant.

As for being forced to team up... what happened to it being "your story". I don't want to team up, mainly because three times in the past when I did I got a bullet in the back of the head.

[tajin 17]

Oh I do get that.

But you said that fighting zombies is easy. Well... if that is the case then nothing can happen, right?

Somehow you still got killed though, so maybe you underestimated the situation and didnt use enough caution. That's all I'm saying, everything else was just examples.

This game is unforgiving when you take risks. Sometimes it works and pays off, sometimes it goes wrong and you die. Minimizing risk = maximizing survivability.

Fighting a group of zeds out in the open just because its easy, is a definite risk. (and in no way a necessary risk as zombies can easily be avoided outside)

[trauma.au 14]

Oh I do get that.

But you said that fighting zombies is easy. Well... if that is the case then nothing can happen' date=' right?

Somehow you still got killed though, so maybe you underestimated the situation and didnt use enough caution. That's all I'm saying, everything else was just examples.

This game is unforgiving when you take risks. Sometimes it works and pays off, sometimes it goes wrong and you die. Minimizing risk = maximizing survivability.

Fighting a group of zeds out in the open just because its easy, is a definite risk. (and in no way a necessary risk as zombies can easily be avoided outside)

[/quote']

This post proves you really don't get what I'm saying. I want as much as anyone else for the zombies to be deadly, very deadly. But you don't do it through terrible mechanics and glitches. I don't feel like running through a town in sight of zombies is a risk, the only risk comes from something I can't influence. (save for your stellar idea of avoiding all zombies... always).

The zombies need to be able to move fast indoors & they need to be able to hit you on the run in the open. I want it to get to a point where you feel the need to sneak, where you won't take the shot from the darkness at the guy with a nice gun... because you fear the zombies that it will attract.

Again, random number generator does not equal difficult.

[tajin 17]

Random numbers are always an essential part of games. This has nothing to do with difficulty, but with diversity. Fixing the glitches is a different story, I agree.

However let me remind you of this sentence in your opening post:

you die just because you weren't "lucky?"

This led me to tell you that you died not because you weren't lucky, but because you took an uncontrollable risk and failed.

[trauma.au 14]

RNG's do have their place, for example the loot spawning is an RNG of sorts... will it be cans or NVG's? That's a good and believable use for it. When that RNG is the decider in whether or not you die to some trivial threat and along with it hours of effort... yea that's just bad design.

[lev 39]

RNG's do have their place' date=' for example the loot spawning is an RNG of sorts... will it be cans or NVG's? That's a good and believable use for it. When that RNG is the decider in whether or not you die to some trivial threat and along with it hours of effort... yea that's just bad design.

[/quote']

The point that Tajin has been trying to explain to you is that RNG was not responsible for your death. You were since you let yourself get spotted by zombies in the first place. You never actually have to fight a zombie in the entire game. You can still loot and do w/e you wish without having to engage any zombies. You chose to be in a situation where you weren't capable of handling them and you lost. That has nothing to do with luck, just a bad decision on your part. We all know about the knockdown and instead of taking measures to avoid it, you purposely seek out zombie encounters so eventually with a percentage chance system you will get knocked down.

That being said, I do agree the knockdown timer could be reduced slightly especially since there's the long getting up animation after. or somehow tie the duration of a knockdown into the number of zombies attacking you.

[abysmal 2]

Bad things happen all the time and often completely random' date=' thats life.

[/quote']

Should we model cancer in game? Just because it happens in real life doesn't make it fun in any sense, and this is a game, not a simulation striving for utmost accuracy. And getting temporarily paralyzed for ~40 seconds by enemies who otherwise often don't scratch you enough to require a bandage totally doesn't happen, especially not when I haven't received any other injuries.

Problem is that you rely on it that they don't happen to you or that you get a warning before it gets critical. Thats not how it works. A lucky blow can be fatal. You could trip over some rubble on the ground' date=' you could loose balance or whatnot... theres always a chance for this to happen.

[/quote']

It isn't like we need more incentive to avoid the Zeds' striking range. Nobody would be trying to be around them were it not for the KO. I bet it's removal would not affect player behavior at all, it would just remove the occasional unfair death.

This is almost a non-factor if you're careful. Hell I bet one could even play the game without ever having to fight a single zombie.

So the 'right' way to play this zombie apocalypse mod is never encountering zombies ever? Is that what the Devs wanted, because that isn't at all the kind of game I want to play. I'd rather fight zombies in the zombie apocalypse than constantly hide, and the knockdown effect motivates players even more to completely avoid them and spend their time player killing instead.

[vedicardi 7]

Make zombies do more actual damage, take out knockdown, that's what I say. Yes, they are easy, but knockdown is just absurd and certainly doesn't "balance" things out, it just makes it fucking confusing. Make them harder, don't make them randomly gods.

See in my situations I WAS able to handle the horde I took on, I just got WARPED to and hit ONCE by the FIRST zombie and thusly killed. Without knockdown I would've faired fine like I should have because it was a very small group at a very small town near the center of the map, but no. I knew my odds, but still got fucked. It's just silly. I was able to clear a larger town of 30+ zombies without a problem but when I come across five I should be cautious suddenly? Honestly at this point I have to rely on that stupid "can't run indoors" glitch to avoid warping, and thus knockdowns. I don't want to have to do that.