A long, logical approach to the "Bandit Problem"

[Aerograt 0]

I like these suggestions, particularly the bandit spawning further north part, but I'm wondering if people are just getting bored with the zombie aspect of the game. I'm not, but more zombie types along with tougher zombies would make PvE much, much more interesting. Obviously, keep the zombies within the bounds of believability for a game striving for realism, but having some zombies that are immune or really resistant to bodyshots through armor, actively stalk players without making their presense known, having better sight or strafe wouldn't be more be too much of a stretch.

[JudgeX 1]

Ehh' date=' you said carebear again so I didn't read the rest of your post.

[/quote']

Well then you're missing out.

A carebear is someone who wants to reduce PVP in a game or make it only consensual' date=' or avoid it altogether.

[/quote']

No a carebear is some one who wants to punish PvP types and reward non-PvP types, which is exactly what each of your ideas entailed. Only the most extreme of carebears want no PvP at all.

In any case, if you read my post you'll see plenty of ideas for organic interaction (as opposed to pre-made groups over voip & killing anyone else you encounter in game), which the game should definitely allow for (and currently doesn't).

You just want to be able to spawn sprint shoot with no consequence. I understand. However, seeing as how that isn't really realistic behavior, people who engage in it more frequently would probably enjoy the game more if they were spawned closer to people of like mentality. It's not a punishment... as was mentioned before, it's a consequence... and it makes sense...

I think a major part of the misunderstanding here is that you think I want to banish "badguys" to the cornfield. I don't. For one, a couple towns up the coast is not "banished"... and for two, I'm not talking about villainous players.

I'm not talking about pro bandits who PVP well.

I'm not talking about the guy who occasionally kills people and is friendly other times.

I'm talking about people who kill pretty much zero zombies, on average don't even survive long enough to get hungry, and do nothing but respawn, look for people, and shoot at them as a priority.

As I said before, I frequently banditize people myself, and have worn the bandit skin for roughly half of my gametime. I have nothing against legit bandits. I would just like the focus of this game to shift 10-15% more towards "survival" (because there are so few multiplayer survival games), and take a step back from plain old "deathmatch". Some of the suggestions I relayed here would do a lot for making that the case.

[LastShenanigan 8]

Ehh' date=' you said carebear again so I didn't read the rest of your post.

[/quote']

Well then you're missing out.

A carebear is someone who wants to reduce PVP in a game or make it only consensual' date=' or avoid it altogether.

[/quote']

No a carebear is some one who wants to punish PvP types and reward non-PvP types, which is exactly what each of your ideas entailed. Only the most extreme of carebears want no PvP at all.

In any case, if you read my post you'll see plenty of ideas for organic interaction (as opposed to pre-made groups over voip & killing anyone else you encounter in game), which the game should definitely allow for (and currently doesn't).

You just want to be able to spawn sprint shoot with no consequence. I understand. However, seeing as how that isn't really realistic behavior, people who engage in it more frequently would probably enjoy the game more if they were spawned closer to people of like mentality. It's not a punishment... as was mentioned before, it's a consequence... and it makes sense...

I think a major part of the misunderstanding here is that you think I want to banish "badguys" to the cornfield. I don't. For one, a couple towns up the coast is not "banished"... and for two, I'm not talking about villainous players.

I'm not talking about pro bandits who PVP well.

I'm not talking about the guy who occasionally kills people and is friendly other times.

I'm talking about people who kill pretty much zero zombies, on average don't even survive long enough to get hungry, and do nothing but respawn, look for people, and shoot at them as a priority.

As I said before, I frequently banditize people myself, and have worn the bandit skin for roughly half of my gametime. I have nothing against legit bandits. I would just like the focus of this game to shift 10-15% more towards "survival" (because there are so few multiplayer survival games), and take a step back from plain old "deathmatch". Some of the suggestions I relayed here would do a lot for making that the case.

Ok in response, I have NEVER "banditized" anyone in game. I frequently run into other players and we both go about our way. I've been killed by bandits only a seldom few times. I've killed only one bandit, after he pointed his gun at me. I DON'T have a problem with the current bandit system. I don't know what "deathmatch" game you're playing. If you really want people to stop spawn/run/gunning then how about no one spawns with a weapon. Otherwise, nothing about your entire argument has been logical. You bounce from "strive for realism" to "not fun game mechanics". Lets not even get into realism in a zombie apocalypse simulator. You don't like people aren't forced to cooperate with each other and want there to be punishment for the people who don't want to play exactly like you. The people "who do nothing but respawn" are only in the respawn zones. Why are you a self proclaimed bandit, even hanging out there. How about survivors spawn holding hands and bandits spawn with a cigar in their mouth so we can clearly tell the difference?

[JudgeX 1]

I don't like the idea of making people look different based on their actions. That, I find, actually IS a punishment.

However, spawning someone elsewhere based on their playstyle is not a punishment. They are spawned in a place equally distant from supplies... a place with other players in good number, and are perfectly capable of walking to the spawn of non-bandit players...

I just don't see your reasoning. As a matter of fact, there is none.

"Strive for realism" - People running around with 9mm shooting everyone in sight has never been the case, even in the most apocalyptic situations on Earth, including war, ethnic cleansing, natural disasters, etc. It's just not what really happens. People do not behave in this way... and never will. The "deathmatch" behavior, as I said before, is EXPLOITATION of the respawn mechanic. It is cutting into the realism, not helping it.

It turns a game from an interesting survival simulator with awesome PVP capabilities to... just another deathmatch, except for the few people who manage to run away from populated zones as soon as they spawn...

THEY get to experience some of the game's other systems, but they don't get a good chance at cooperation, since they were scattered to the wind by an invincible horde of infinitely respawning zombies with guns.

Game mechanics that move away from this playstyle make Day Z more interesting. Game mechanics that move towards this playstyle make Day Z more similar to Quake 2.

Stop hiding behind sensible PVP. You're advocating for nothing but griefing, as it's the only thing that I've even remotely advocated against.

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[Clovis (DayZ) 1]

You just want to be able to spawn sprint shoot with no consequence. I understand. However' date=' seeing as how that isn't really realistic behavior, people who engage in it more frequently would probably enjoy the game more if they were spawned closer to people of like mentality. It's not a punishment... as was mentioned before, it's a consequence... and it makes sense...[/quote']

So, a big part of your argument has been that PVP'ers will enjoy the game more under your rules and survivors will enjoy it more as well. That only makes sense if that's what people really want and actually creates a more interesting game. I don't think it does.

If I'm a bandit, I don't want to be around other bandits because they are trying to kill me. I want to be around someone who's going to try and work with me, so that I can shoot him in the back.

If I'm a survivor, even one who wants to cooperate, I don't want to know that the people around me are willing to do that. I want to have to risk getting killed in order to act like a rational human being.

No matter what I'm doing, when I spawn, I don't want to know where I am, who's a friend, or who's a foe. I don't know want to know if that guy down the road is going to shoot me with his Makarov on sight. I'm a new character and now I have to face a harsh world where some things don't make sense.

Maybe it'll make the game more "realistic" to you if you just imagine that some survivors have already been infected and haven't fully zombified yet. They're just crazy gun wielding zombies basically ... that live on coastlines ... er, so like crazy gun wielding zombie pirates ... yeah, there's some realism ...

Requiring survivors to travel a bit to get away from the PK'ers is part of the game. Surviving your first 15 minutes on th coast is interesting, because it is filled with crazy people.

EDIT: My post was started shortly before Judge's lastest post that mentioned gun-wielding zombies :-)

[Cooper42 0]

If the problem is primarily the "spawn and run and gun" lot, then the poblem is that people spawn with way too much gear.

How about the current default gear at spawn you only get once every 3 or 5 hours.

If you die within 5 hours of your spawn, you start again with only one clip, no bandages. Sure, it means you can go on a Mak spree, but it won't last long.

It might also encourage new players to run to the woods and hide; not jog on along the railway tracks like some kind of grotesque rifle range for snipers...

[miqueloz 33]

I'm not sure if these griefers who instantly run to a town and open fire with their Makarovs are really a problem... never been killed by one. Never seen one.

It might also encourage new players to run to the woods and hide; not jog on along the railway tracks like some kind of grotesque rifle range for snipers...

Sniper bullets are more valuable than the lives of people who've just spawned. I don't think too many snipers are really paying any attention to the coasts.

[Cooper42 0]

Sniper bullets are more valuable than the lives of people who've just spawned. I don't think too many snipers are really paying any attention to the coasts.

You'd be surprised at the number of griefers out there who go hunt down a CZ then turn on their heels to take pot shots at people spawning or walking through Cherno. By sniper I guess I meant the hunting rifle. It's a decent enough scope to work given the fog in this game...

It seems a bit boring and cowardly to me, but it floats some people's boats.

[Fungalism 0]

If the problem is primarily the "spawn and run and gun" lot' date=' then the poblem is that people spawn with way too much gear.

How about the current default gear at spawn you only get once every 3 or 5 hours.

If you die within 5 hours of your spawn, you start again with only one clip, no bandages. Sure, it means you can go on a Mak spree, but it won't last long.

It might also encourage new players to run to the woods and hide; not jog on along the railway tracks like some kind of grotesque rifle range for snipers...

[/quote']

I would feel really bad for the guys who get killed by bandits every 15 minutes. But then again, their cursing and screaming on the side channel is entertainment while I'm exploring the north.

[BigMorgan (DayZ) 3]

I still don't really get why people's first instinct upon spawning is "proceed immediately to Elektro/Cherno/Balota AF and kit up, then make friends and move out." Even a few of my mates have this mentality despite there being 5-10 of us online at the same time sitting pretty up north in the same server.

Your mentality upon respawn ought to be "proceed immediately to a position of safety, then carefully gather supplies away from known PvP hotzones."

Don't let yourself be a target, basically. If you do get spawnraped, oh well, what did you lose? 30 seconds?

And if you get sniped up north, well, someone at least earned that one, right?

[JudgeX 1]

30 seconds if it's not prime-time and it takes 4 spawn-in-attempts to not land in the debug woods.

[The Killing Joke 43]

Why is this a problem? Because the game rewards cooperation' date=' and many people want to enjoy this portion of the game unmolested.[/quote']

I think this is where your argument started to fall apart. I don't recall Rocket saying the game had any redeeming qualities, whatsoever.

[JudgeX 1]

Why is this a problem? Because the game rewards cooperation' date=' and many people want to enjoy this portion of the game unmolested.[/quote']

I think this is where your argument started to fall apart. I don't recall Rocket saying the game had any redeeming qualities, whatsoever.

Why do you need words? The mod has elements of cooperation. Bandaging others, sharing tents and fires, working to gather parts for vehicles and multiple seats... so on and so forth...

I didn't say that the people who want to enjoy that unmolested are doing anything better or correct... I was stating that some people have that desire, while others have the desire to... well... molest... and that's fine, too...

Like I said, my only complaint is the exploitation of the respawn mechanic and how easy it is to wield against people who are working hard at cooperation.

Making that 20% harder wouldn't ruin the game.

[The Killing Joke 43]

Like I said' date=' my only complaint is the exploitation of the respawn mechanic and how easy it is to wield against people who are working hard at cooperation.[/quote']

And I wholeheartedly agree. Having someone kill off people spawning in is terrible. If there was some invisible timer that showed the amount of time they had been in-game after spawning that could count the amount of times a player did that same move (thus proving the intent) then I might lean towards supporting some type of action against it.

In many servers, there's usually Admins on who police this kind of behaviour and have the tools (such as SourceTV) to be able to watch and see what may have happened, and action it accordingly. I'd love to see that implemented, with a nice set of rules, so that there's a good idea of what is, and what is not permitted.

[davidcastle 19]

I like how you were non offensive and smart about the way you laid out your opinion. Let me give my two cents on each of these though because I will have to respectfully disagree with your opinion.

"However, as much as we want to just shoot people, we must admit that the penalty for death for a player who has worked carefully at establishing gear or attempting a goal such as repairing a vehicle or setting up a nice camp is much higher than that for a spawn-and-sprint bandit, whose entertainment comes for free, whose attack is generally unexpected, and whose lifespan is quite often extremely short."

And bandits don't have these goals either? I am a bandit, and yes I will sometimes hunt players down for joy, even ones without gear.. need to instill fear and makesure my name and the name of my comrades on our server are known. BUT, we still do non bandit things, if we heist someone on a road and they actually listen to us and go prone look at the sky and let us rob him... we usually only take some food and water and maybe ammo. If he has a good gun, sometimes he might keep it if hes not being threatening. The point I am getting at is us "bandit skinned" players do things to survive... we just do it differently. I find shooting those that look like threats, and mercilessly killing on occasion actually provides me better chance of survival then not. This game is about survival. Who can survive the longest. CO-OP was always an option, and a risky one. Beware, there are bandits whose lifespan is long and who hunt, not with maks, but with CZ's, M14's, and hand grenades.

"So, what if we just leave it the way that it is?

You can only build a sandcastle to have it pointlessly kicked apart so many times before you tire of building sandcastles. Read the forums. People are tired of the "Call of Duty" factor."

I am at 107 hours. I have had my "sand castle" kicked many times... It's something you get used to. It is in fact the point of the game for everything to be dangerous and NOT for the average player to be able to last for days on one character. Rocket has even said in an interview he enjoys games that frustrate him so much he wants to throw things. He is basically making the game that HE has always wanted to play and it was by awesome chance that many people also enjoy the same things as him. The threat of bandits is one of the best, because bandits don't have AI's like zombies... they are intelligent free thinkers.. making them the most dangerous thing.. at the same time, a survivor is the most dangerous thing to a bandit. You forget the bandits side of the story.

"1) Bandits spawn farther away from Elektro/Cherno, so that they must travel a longer time to return and put their free Makarov against other players again."

NO NO NO. Elektro and Cherno are larger cities, and as in a real apocalypse where cities would be more dangerous it should make sense more so in this game. I do not like the "realism" idea of survivors easily running around Elektro and Cherno getting gear whist bandits our punished just for favoring a different gameplay style. If you want to avoid the free mak bandits, LEAVE THE COAST. go in land away from civilization.

"2) Rewarding long term, healthy, active survival (you ate a lot of food, killed a lot of zombies, started some fires, bandaged some players) by giving random starting gear bonuses (extra beans, magazines, box of matches?) This could also be judged with an achievement system."

Uh, lol, only if you reward good bandits with a free m4 for the same reasons. Achievements are cool, i kinda want them since this game is about "who can _____ the most/longest" but rewards. NO. this game is meant to throw everyone into a dangerous world with little advantages and see where they go from there.

3) Give people a couple of free murders per day, but afterwards start spawning them farther and farther away.

"the same response for 1) goes for this

"4) Reward group-play by allowing survivors to keep a non-weapon item or two on respawn, to represent that this person has formed connections with people and through cooperation has gained for himself. Working to be able to spawn with a survival knife and compass, for instance, could be a good way to show that the player relies on self sufficiency rather than stealing, and is thus rewarded."

Then you would also have to reward non-group play. this is the anti-game about an apocalypse which is anarchy. No rules. The sweat of your own brow gets you stuff. and the bullet of someone steals it.

"5) Zombies could have a slight taste preference for bandits, so that in a situation where two people are in LOS for an angry zombie, it chooses the more murderous of the two more often."

Zombies don't think this hard.

"Now, if you think these are all care-bear ideas, I'd like to remind you to actually consider the results of what some of these would accomplish. Like-minded players spawning closer together... and also keeping more people in the game and avoiding some player-induced rage-quit... ultimately secures the violence-minded bandit more targets."

This would attempt to destroy what bandits are about... being a bandit isn't just about the pvp and enjoying guns.. we'd play normal arma 2 for that. The idea of a bandit is to BE a bandit. If anything I would like to take away the punishments for being a bandit aka what rocket is doing, taking away bandit and survivor skins.

[Necros (DayZ) 0]

1- No

2- Yes

3- No

4- Perhaps

5- No

[JudgeX 1]

Anyway, it's a fun thread, whether you agree or disagree. I am impressed that the community has remained civil, even with differing opinions. That alone gives me even more hope for this mod than I think even patch notes that include my favorite hoped-for changes :).

To get back to it, the game really is about sandcastles.

You are given a sandbox, and several tools to cooperate and build sandcastles with... and equally many tools to steal sand and work from other people, just like in reality... it's a great balance between those two playstyles... It really is that third playstyle of "kick every sandcastle, respawn, repeat" that I feel is horribly unrealistic.

---

btw, when I say sandcastles, I mean "survival" and "stockpiles" and "cooperative goals".

[The Killing Joke 43]

btw' date=' when I say sandcastles, I mean "survival" and/or "stockpiles" and/or "cooperative goals".[/quote']

FTFY. Many people like to kick over your cooperative goals.

[JudgeX 1]

btw' date=' when I say sandcastles, I mean "survival" and/or "stockpiles" and/or "cooperative goals".[/quote']

FTFY. Many people like to kick over your cooperative goals.

I'm extremely aware of this.

But I think the game would ultimately be more fun for everyone if that "kicking over" took a tiny bit more work than it currently does.

Note:

I'm not talking about when I get Winchestered in the north by a guy who wants my Winchester ammo... or when I tromp into a building and the nervous guy blasts my face off. I LOVE those encounters, and even when it's my death, they make an awesome story...

[nuc 0]

Whenever I see a bandit(I'm a bandit but i don't dc!) I know I better kill him on the first few shots because seriously 9/10 bandits I kill disconnect before they are dead. I know it saves asap now but they still can disconnect and I'll lose a chance at solid items. I don't know I've ever killed a survivor and see him DC

[JudgeX 1]

Well, the game instantly closes when you alt-F4... like, faster than any game I've ever played in my whole life outside of Solitaire.

I dunno if the scripting of Arma II allows for slowing that down or disabling it, but if it does, I'd seriously consider throwing a wrench in there.

[Aerograt 0]

Well' date=' the game instantly closes when you alt-F4... like, faster than any game I've ever played in my whole life outside of Solitaire.

I dunno if the scripting of Arma II allows for slowing that down or disabling it, but if it does, I'd seriously consider throwing a wrench in there.

[/quote']

Doesn't EVE keep people who have just been in combat ingame for a bit to prevent them from just logging out when they're about to lose? Just put the same kind of thing in DayZ.