Please stop with anti-sandbox suggestions!

[Arnoldio 2]

True. When i first started DayZ, it was so epicly good. Now the effect wore out when i know how people play it and ins and out of the spawning system.

[oktyabr 53]

Words like "carebears" and posts about not being one just tells me this mod isn't tough enough yet, not by a long shot. Someone on these forums once said they wanted DayZ to be so difficult with so many zed that when you finally run into another player it's greeted with a sigh of relief, not a gasp of panic. The only way you should be in a position to feel like you are surviving is through teamwork with the random stranger because lone wolfs should find themselves quickly eaten.

Take away "NVG" for example and see how many try-hards turn into whine filled carebears themselves. Make the average server have 2000 or 3000 zombies (rocket said should be possible) and put half of them wandering around in the wilderness. See how many posts about "carebears" happen then!

DayZ should ultimately be a tear factory, for bandit and survivor alike. The only ones that should be having fun collecting food and loot are the zombies.

Moving to General Discussion since the OP does not actually contain a unique, constructive suggested change to the mod itself.

[jonryan32@gmail.com 2]

Are we really differentiating a hard game from a fun game right now?

Has gaming devolved so much in this day and age where these are two different things?

Sad.

[zalman 1]

The game has WALKING DEAD in it, can people STOP SAYING ITS REALISTIC!!!

[n7snk 13]

Well' date=' sory. Go play Dead Island. [s']Zombie fun, leveling, item crafting.

i tend to disagree here. i'm all for making game harderbut adding rp and cti elements would not hurt.

inb4 starting to trhow shit in my direction

look here:

there more toys and possibilities you have to play with the more awesome game mode is.

if people who geared up and can survive can build camps and produce weapons/ammo not for same weapons for the sake of balance, it will add new dimmension to game mode. so it will turn ino tvt cti wars over camps and territories in harsh as fuck environment and so on.

trading mechanism can be presented just with table in a camp where you put some items and another guy put another. just to make it different then drop on ground and pick up. really.

but again no safezones, nothing scripted, no ingame mechanics factions but rather improvised by players, no random military ai events, since players will do that by their own.

in this case such rp and cti mechanics may turn this mode into something really awesome then just plain surviving in zombie apocalypse. but again. no obligatory. more options and possibilities but nothing artificial. thats an experiment afterall. will be interesting to see will people form some kind of factions/society in the end or not, if they have all possibilities to do so, or it will stay chaotic

[gator (DayZ) 22]

I haven't played in a couple weeks because of the issues with the zombie survival aspect of this game.

I see the potential that this mod has, but also realize that there are some problems that will need to be resolved before the game/mod has replayability and uniqueness.

I know this is alpha, and so I come back to the forums to see how things are progressing and will play again if the game starts tapping its potential.

But, anyway, I think the cause of all the PvP threads is a problem in the concept of the game itself.

I understand PvP is a part of the game and that lends to its unique position to create something new, however, PvP being the end all goal of a game is not unique, and Arma is not the best engine to turn into this type of game anyway. Thus, a big picture game issue that needs to be answered by someone is "what kind of game are we making," or maybe "what do we want to create that will be unique and make people want to keep playing for long periods of time."

The zombie survival aspect of the game is what created the initial hype and interest in this mod. However, peel away the few zombies roaming around, its an Arma deathmatch mod with some bells and whistles like hunger and sickness.

A possible solution is more persistence and the ability to build (some people mention crafting) so that the work one puts into the game in one day carries over to the next. Right now you can get supplies, but once you have the guns and food, there is no incentive to build anything for tomorrow.

This would lead to a more MMO type game. Idk if thats what the developers are going for or not, but that is one of several paths. In any event, I do not think (my opinion) that adding sickness and things like that are enough to make up for a lack of goals, self created or not, in the game. I say self-created because people will say its a sandbox, make your own goals. That is fine, but the sandbox needs sand and my castle needs to still be there tomorrow, or else why do I spend all day building it?

[i wub pugs 16]

If you want a safe zone then make it yourself.

You want leveling up? You have it, it's the days alive count. Sorry you don't get a perk.

Want to trade? Welcome to the world of drug deals. We've already taken a world of fear in the game and made it worse from paranoia. You gotta have something I want, and I gotta have something you want and we both have to trust each other enough to complete a transaction and then GTFO. Right now there isn't enough scarcity. I'm hoping colds become deadly and antibiotics are worth more than all the beans in the world.

[zedqube@gmail.com 3]

This game is about your imagination and what you do with it. You know, like how video games use to be. Rocket doesn't implement features, he creates an environment that facilitates player created experiences. Players make the rules amongst themselves. Rocket gives us the playing mat.

[vivalarazala 1]

Meh +1

Idk but id like a way to make my own bullets XD

[Flicshot 12]

If someone suggest missions or quests in this game id like to shoot you in the face you mindless pric

[Haiiro 1]

I suggest the OP take a look at EVE:Online ... that has 'safe' zones, traders, leveling. Does that make it any less of a sandbox game? Hell no it doesn't. It only has to be well implemented.

'safe' zones could be player created, allow the players to put down some barbed wire, tents and sandbag and voila a nice little encampment. In a zombie apocalypse would you just run around from city to city all day, no decent place to stay, just strolling around like a retard taking only what you could carry and never store it anywhere. No, you'd find a place in the woods where it's relatively safe, build something up where you can store your stuff and rest in between scavenging hunts. Maybe even band together with other survivors and grow your camp as you go along.

traders could be at certain spots, not equipped with standard items but equipped with what other players found and traded with them or with what they created. It could even be just a sort of trade zone. It would be a hell of a lot more immersive than spamming global chat like some godlike entity that can talk to anyone every time you needed some bandages. And it would make perfect sense too, economy doesn't simply die out because there are zombies, people always have and always will trade stuff and set up certain 'marketplaces', for lack of a better word.

On leveling, without it you simply assume the second a zombie apocalypse breaks out everyone suddenly turns into a survival ex-military expert. If an apocalypse happened right now I wouldn't have the faintest clue how to skin an animal or how to shoot and maintain a rifle. I wouldn't be able to run for miles like a trained athlete... I'm a programmer irl for crying out loud, the most exercise I get is running from my chair to the fridge and back ( xD ) I'd get a whole lot better at these things the more I did them though.

What I'm basically trying to say is, don't be so close minded. Some suggestions aren't bad, they just have to be tackled with the right mindset to fit within a mod like this.

[feriluce 2]

Exactly. It is not a "fun" game. I mean' date=' it is, but it is not. :D It should get you scared and frustrated, but currently provides frustration on a whole other level... its an alpha though.

The "fun" in this game is (or is intended to be) the application of your way of thinking into a different atmosphere than your ordinary life. It should be what you would do in a situation like DayZ not what you want to do. Currently with this flawed system, Survivors are mostly those who "play by the rules" aka doing what they think should be right. That doesnt exclude Bandits. Murderers think that killing is right, but i dont think that many serial killers are playing DayZ, yet it seems like there is lots of them, because kids take this as a game. I take it as an experiment.

[/quote']

If a game frustrates its players its an example of bad game design.

[aragos 1]

I think everyone has some good ideas here. Having been an alpha and beta tester for years, just need to say that this is a work in progress.

And it's Rocket's work. End of the day, it is the designer's vision that makes the game. Personally, I love Sandbox. Take the Sandbox away, then you just have another mission based FPS (and been there/done that over and over and over).

But is this really a Sandbox game? Or is it a PvP with an overlay of survival thrown in? That, I think, is the crux of confusion in a lot of these discussion.

Example 1: You think that the game is a Sandbox, player coop game. You load up, get killed and looted by the first dude who walks by. Carebear or Killer, you figure out pretty quickly that it is PvP.

Example 2: You love you some PvP noob slaying. You spawn in, snipe a guy, and then get jumped by his 10 buddies. You suddenly say "WTF, I thought this was every man for himself." And so on.

Do we need a way to mark a bandit? IMHO, nope. Bad idea. You might as well make Zed blaze orange with chemlights attached. It would detract from the entire suspense of playing the game.

However...if it is just bandit vs. victim out there, the game will get old very, very quickly. Bandits will run out of victims, sooner or later, and then they will leave too. Empty servers. Another opportunity for something really different and special is lost.

How do you deal with these issues?

1) Don't suppress the opinion of others. Theirs is just as important from yours. The only real issue is that you and the other guy who is disagreeing (e.g. Carebears vs. Killahs) is that they may have an entirely different view of what the game is supposed to be. More open discussion, esp. at the Alpha stage, is key. This is actually the time to openly talk about what we, the players and ultimately the consumers, want to see and do.

2) Clearly state what you want/mean. IF saying, in response to someone "well, you are just an [insert snide comment or insult here]" then you are missing the point entirely and are just a troll. Move along and go smack down the kiddies on the nearest Twilight fan fiction forum.

3) Understand that there is a damn good chance that what you suggest will be completely ignored. Deal with it by finding a game you like or some alternative. Or learn to live with it.

Me? I'd prefer a lot, lot more Zeds. Ability to get things up and running (power stations could turn on the lights in town, rebuilt cars/helos/boats/tanks/etc could be used, ability to create and fortify areas and so on)--if that is what you like to do. Wanna be Mr. Sniper? Why not, go ahead. Want to get that M2 Bradley up and running again--awesome.

Sandbox games make it so everyone can create their own stories. We all have, whether we know it or not.

See you out there. Unless you see me first.

[radioghost 2]

If a game frustrates its players its an example of bad game design.

What... I don't even...

You're kidding right? You think difficulty is bad game design? Take, for example, Demon Souls are Dark Souls--two very highly acclaimed PS3 titles that are notorious for their punishing difficulty. They are excellent games, because they create immersion and force the player to constantly re-asses dangerous situations.

Maybe you should go back to Hello Kitty Island, as Day-z is not the mod for you.

[Pocket4s 6]

Take away "NVG" for example and see how many try-hards turn into whine filled carebears themselves. Make the average server have 2000 or 3000 zombies (rocket said should be possible) and put half of them wandering around in the wilderness. See how many posts about "carebears" happen then!

Zero posts. Not because anyone's attitude would change' date=' but because nobody would play that game. There is a fine line between harsh, brutal, challenging and intense and simply punishingly tedious. Crawling around prone everywhere I go because there are literally 40-50 zombies in earshot at all times crosses that line, sorry. It would be in no way a compelling experience, "fun" or otherwise.

And say what you will about the "carebears" but multiplayer games, even harshly realistic ones, need players. If the game world is empty because you've decided your design philosophy is to punish people for paying your game, the game isn't going to be very interesting. Zombies are not the focus of DayZ - other survivors and bandits are. And those are people.

I love DayZ and I love that it's not pulling punches. I haven't felt this level of intensity in a game in decades - not since MUDs that allowed players to be fully looted upon PK resulting in the loss of potentially months of effort. I welcome that intensity and challenge, and I am enjoying every moment in the game.

But that's just it - at the end of the day it's a game. Games are played. Play, by definition, is an activity undertaken for enjoyment. Most of us have lives that are full of a certain amount of unavoidable tedium - school, jobs, housework, etc. - so when we retire to our gaming hobby, even those of us who are into the sort of harsh experience that DayZ has to offer, we still want to enjoy ourselves. If all a game has to offer is tedious repitition followed quickly by a punishing death, how many people are going to be devoting their leisure time to it? Very few. And those of us who do will feel very lonely and as a result soon bored.

If DayZ is to mature from Alpha into a successful product (a successful game being one that your target audience wants to play), it needs to toe the line carefully. Do I want to see "Ding level 50!" in general chat? No. But would it be kind of neat if I could indicate that my survivor used to be a Doctor before Z-Day, granting him a very slight bonus to bandage speed? Or, after my 10th animal gutting would it be cool to learn something new about animal anatomy, granting a chance at an extra raw meat from the carcass? Yes. And these would fit perfectly well within the confines of the "harsh reality" of the game.

As to the OP, you can take your "only post suggestions I personally find amenable" proclamation and stuff it. I'll let rocket peruse the forums and trust him to decide for himself which ideas are compelling and which are not. None of us need you to police the forums for us. If you're so convinced you know exactly what features a game like this needs, I suggest you go make one of your own.

What... I don't even...

You're kidding right? You think difficulty is bad game design?

No, that's not what he said. He said frustration, not difficulty. They are not the same thing. A difficulty that presents a unique challenge and requires critical thinking, reflexes, a deep understanding of the game, experience, etc. and can be overcome through interesting means, etc. is fine. Difficulty for its own sake - just to confound the player or create needless tedium is poor design.

For example, if your game is hard because the enemies are incredibly smart - that's positive difficulty. If your game is hard because the controls are unintuitive and unresponsive - that leads to frustration and is a sign of bad design.

Not saying this applies to DayZ - I'm just pointing out there's a distinction to be made.

[aragos 1]

^well said Pocket4.

I would love more Zeds, but intelligently. Cities crawling with them. Wilderness--they should be rare.

Like the idea about background/etc. Not sure I want specific RPG type classes, but a simple "what was your job before it all went down?" Doctor or Army medic? Doc can stop bleeding w/o bandages. Medic gets bigger pack and meds at start. Soldier? You get a better (not great) weapon. civilian? more food, and so on. Your starting skin is that of what you did on DayZ -1.

Would add some variety to the game.

[Gibbonici 9]

On leveling' date=' without it you simply assume the second a zombie apocalypse breaks out everyone suddenly turns into a survival ex-military expert. If an apocalypse happened right now I wouldn't have the faintest clue how to skin an animal or how to shoot and maintain a rifle.[/quote']

I don't assume that everyone becomes weapon and survival experts; I assume that anyone who wasn't a weapon or survival expert are now zombies.

I don't mind being able to improve skills over time but what I absolutely do not want is a page of statistics that I can adjust every time an arbitrary point in time comes round. I'd want it to be like the character improvement in something like GTA:San Andreas, where doing stuff made abilities better in a totally invisible way.

And levels.... no chance. Levels have always sucked, ever since first edition D&D.

[Haiiro 1]

I don't assume that everyone becomes weapon and survival experts; I assume that anyone who wasn't a weapon or survival expert are now zombies.

I don't mind being able to improve skills over time but what I absolutely do not want is a page of statistics that I can adjust every time an arbitrary point in time comes round. I'd want it to be like the character improvement in something like GTA:San Andreas' date=' where doing stuff made abilities better in a totally invisible way.

And levels.... no chance. Levels have always sucked, ever since first edition D&D.

[/quote']

No-one said anything about a global level though. Skin 50 rabbits and you'll be better at skinning, manage to hit a zombie a thousand times with a CZ and maybe you'll be able to reload it a bit faster 'cause you got to know the gun a bit better. Still leveling, still levels ... only separated and not tied into a general overhanging player rating which does indeed have no place in a game like this.

You'll get better over time therefor you need a point to start, no point in starting as some survival god 'cause let's face it very few of us are (28 minutes of average survival time pretty much proves that) every on of us could start out as just a regular dude, perhaps combined with a background story giving a slight edge on certain points.

[i wub pugs 16]

I don't know how anyone is seeing a noob survivor as some sort of expert.

You have two cans of beans, a canteen, some basic meds and a shitty pistol that isn't any good beyond 20 yards anyway.

You don't start as a survival expert. You have to get the right gear and learn the world. I think it works just fine.

[DarkMagik 0]

Got my +1 here.

[Arnoldio 2]

Oh my, im kinda starting to regret opening this.

DayZ has to have as little features as possible. Everything you add can and will be exploited. Add leveling with bonuses, people will start powerleveling with some thing like chopping wood, so they reach elvel 50 and then be powerful. Every non-real life feature you add, has a chance to fail, if not done correctly. Then stuff needs balancing, and it takes months.

See, good equipment spawns ad airfield barracks. Go there, farm for few days, then go do your own thing... I exploited that, was fun going around with that uberleet gear, but did i have to work hard to get the equipment? No, it was childs play.

Now crafting could be good, but what would you craft? What would you craft that other players couldnt craft? Improvised knife? I dont need you to do it for me. A gun? You know jack shit about building a gun, and so do i, so were just quietly going to pick it up from the floor.

We wont need crafting. I hope to see more variety in items and especially rarity, then markets and safe zones will develop. People sticking together because they have limited loot, and demand for certain items would be high, only brave ones would go out. With spawn penalties, even they would have to think it through and assemble a team. I adressed those in another thread so i wont do it again here. You can "Improvise" crafting at the moment. Get a team that loots all good needed loots, setup a trade post of some kind, have certain weapons on "sale". You didnt craft them, but you have a stash of them, wich in the end is the same, as with crafting, you would need the crafting materials,wich again requires looting.

Here is the thread. http://dayzmod.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=4780

Also, i see i have -2 rep, haha, keep them tears coming, i will share them with rocket!

[Haiiro 1]

I don't know how anyone is seeing a noob survivor as some sort of expert.

You have two cans of beans' date=' a canteen, some basic meds and a shitty pistol that isn't any good beyond 20 yards anyway.

You don't start as a survival expert. You have to get the right gear and learn the world. I think it works just fine.

[/quote']

You can also run infinitely, instantly master any gun, are apparently a master of first aid and basically know how to do anything and everything the moment you pick up a certain item. In that way one could consider you as an expert... Just because I haphazardly stumble across a wheel I shouldn't suddenly become an insane car mechanic that can pretty much transform a wreck into a working car.

[aragos 1]

Oh my' date=' im kinda starting to regret opening this.

DayZ has to have as little features as possible. Everything you add can and will be exploited. Add leveling with bonuses, people will start powerleveling with some thing like chopping wood, so they reach elvel 50 and then be powerful. Every non-real life feature you add, has a chance to fail, if not done correctly. Then stuff needs balancing, and it takes months.

See, good equipment spawns ad airfield barracks. Go there, farm for few days, then go do your own thing... I exploited that, was fun going around with that uberleet gear, but did i have to work hard to get the equipment? No, it was childs play.

Now crafting could be good, but what would you craft? What would you craft that other players couldnt craft? Improvised knife? I dont need you to do it for me. A gun? You know jack shit about building a gun, and so do i, so were just quietly going to pick it up from the floor.

We wont need crafting. I hope to see more variety in items and especially rarity, then markets and safe zones will develop. People sticking together because they have limited loot, and demand for certain items would be high, only brave ones would go out. With spawn penalties, even they would have to think it through and assemble a team. I adressed those in another thread so i wont do it again here. You can "Improvise" crafting at the moment. Get a team that loots all good needed loots, setup a trade post of some kind, have certain weapons on "sale". You didnt craft them, but you have a stash of them, wich in the end is the same, as with crafting, you would need the crafting materials,wich again requires looting.

Here is the thread. http://dayzmod.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=4780

Also, i see i have -2 rep, haha, keep them tears coming, i will share them with rocket!

[/quote']

+1 on the agree with leveling. Bad idea. You will get--like you do with WoW, et al, sweatshops in China filled with political prisoners doing nothing but chopping wood all day. That would just suck. If I want WoW, I'd play it.

Possible solution is that everyone starts the same, as they do now. Clean slate, you go from there. Maybe there is an invis skill system running in the background--if so, the world would soon be ruled by the king sniper, who not only is a good PvP gamer, but gets even bigger bennies from shooting lots of people. That would make the game worse, not better.

As to safe zones, trading, et al, that would only really work if you had persistent servers. Right now, the only thing that stays the same is your character. Fixing up a building to use as a base only lasts for a while; much less setting up some sort of trading post.

The game is basically Mad Max w/Zeds thrown in. You run around, trying to survive, etc.

Nothing wrong with a game like that; makes it fun for many (me included). DayZ isn't at the long-term MMO level--it just isn't designed for that at this stage.

[gator (DayZ) 22]

"Mad Max w/Zeds thrown in"

Holy shit you nailed it. Good analogy

[Arnoldio 2]

I see your point Haiiro, not sure how this silent leveling would be introduced, but picking your own class if out of the question with such system. You imagine you were a doctor before, you will automatically do more bandaging and blood transfusions, thus level further and ultimately become a "doctor". Its not the skillset, its the mindset. And also, if a sildier class would have some aiming/weapon perks... everybody would go for that, i am 100% because this is a game at the moment and who shoots wins.