Can't you just shoot them in the head?

[Uncle Gapey 16]

The players appear to be wearing bullet proof vests...

The players' starting clothing is called Civilian Clothing. The characters are wearing MOLLE vests for load carrying convenience. It's likely the vests are modeled after plate-carrier vests (see: http://www.bodyarmoroutlet.com/content-product_info/product_id-3434/armor_express_light_hawk_pc_plate_carrier.html). Vests like these are not bullet proof whatsoever - the plates that go in them are. That said, installing plates adds a lot of weight to your person; enough so that current player runspeeds and swimming ability would be very unrealistic. These plates are not common to civilians. How many people do you know who aren't military/LEO and own vests with plates?

...and even if they weren't go look up some news stories about the police shooting people. It can often take more than 2 rounds to kill someone (I think the officer put 4+ in the guy in Florida who was eating people's faces).

You're losing scope of the debate here. It can definitely take more than 2 rounds to kill someone, that much is certain. This debate is about the specific calibers of said rounds. The cop who shot the face-eater only confirmed one hit at center mass, but did say he shot 5-6 rounds. Face-eater was already on the ground, too.

Miami-Dade police carry .40 S&W pistols and use the following ammo:

http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/handgun.aspx?id=337

Below is the "same round" in .45:

http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/handgun.aspx?id=354

Here is the Makarov's 9x18 (9mm, for reference, is 9x19mm):

http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/handgun.aspx?id=96

Each of those links show kinetic energy and other important info. Ballistics, you say?

http://www.ballistics101.com/

There is a video on youtube where an officer puts 2 rounds in a giant man and he still chases the cop down and beats on him. Sure, 2 rounds may knock someone unconscious and leave them bleeding out, but unless you hit a vital organ with one of those two shots you are probably going to need a third if you want to make them dead right then.

Again, this isn't about some random number of shots and inaccurate recollections concerning highly unusual occurrences of people getting shot and going about their business. It's about different calibers/makes of pistols. .45 will incapacitate in 1 shot almost every time, and not just because I say so: http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf.

One round of .45 at center mass, or in a limb, is enough to incapacitate anyone. If that person is on crack, or a zombie? Movement (muscles) require blood pressure. Major organs don't have to be hit. Blood pressure just has to drop (see ballistic info and FBI training doc above).

The pro-nerf argument seems to be: People need to take their time and get headshots! Baddies! This game/mod is all about realism, right? Taking the time to aim for heads while zombies are trying to eat you is very unrealistic. See the FBI doc above - read the second paragraph on page 3.

In closing/TLDR:

The incapacitation/kill rate of the pre-nerf 1911 and revolver was very realistic. Nerfing them is not the way to go. Maintain realism and adjust the rarity of the more powerful handguns and associated ammunition if there is a problem! Don't screw with the ballistics, which were pretty spot-on before.

IMHO, this entire issue came from the DayZ folk(s) trying to take the easy way out: Rampant duping and hax make nerfing the guns much more effective than taking the time to properly adjust the drop rates. The exploits can be fixed, and should be fixed instead of altering gun behavior. Patching exploits should immediately be priority #1 so that we don't have to debate over silly changes like this.

[Obsolescence 129]

Again, this isn't about some random number of shots and inaccurate recollections concerning highly unusual occurrences of people getting shot and going about their business. It's about different calibers/makes of pistols. .45 will incapacitate in 1 shot almost every time, and not just because I say so: http://www.firearmst...df/fbi-hwfe.pdf.

The pro-nerf argument seems to be: People need to take their time and get headshots! Baddies! This game/mod is all about realism, right? Taking the time to aim for heads while zombies are trying to eat you is very unrealistic. See the FBI doc above - read the second paragraph on page 3.

I'm giving you beans because this piece of evidence is great, but this document actually supports my point. Please see my references within the document. I've included summaries in case you are still to busy to read the document you are using as evidence.

Please read:

Pg. 3 - Third paragraph: Explains that two shots to the body is to be expected on average to incapacitate (but not kill).

Pg. 8 - First sentence: "With the exception of hits to the brain or upper spinal cord, the concept of reliable and reproducible immediate incapacitation of the human target by gunshot wound to the torso is a myth."

Pg. 8 - Second paragraph: Reviews the ways in which a target can be physiologically incapacitated (note the last sentence detailing direct heart shots).

Pg. 8 - Last paragraph: Details how psychological, emotional, and chemical factors can prevent incapacitation (including basic adrenaline).

Pg. 9 - Fourth paragraph: Explains that a bullet will not knock you down, and that this has been a known fact for "hundreds of years."

Pg. 13 - Last paragraph: Explains the phenomena of people falling down as dependant of whether they realize they've been shot (and that this phenomena is independent of caliber).

Pg. 16 - All paragraphs: Please take a look at this section because each of the three paragraphs covers why we shouldn't expect zombies, much less people, to be insta-gibbed by a single shot to the chest.

Edited July 29, 2012 by Obsolescence

[Michaelvoodoo25 3120]

I think this thread highlights a difference in player ability, I've never played COD or BF but I can imagine unloading magazines into players was common due to having no tactical ability.

I use an M1911, I have a DMR and also a L85 AWS. the rifles are picking from scouting and serve no purpose to me (looking for survivors to give to give them to). I play the game good enough to be able to solve my problems.

I've used most of the weapons in this game in RL, people get shot all the time to varying degrees. I have seen / heard people get shot multiple times and have it considered a great pain in the arse (Protected and non) In fact I dare say most of you would not be able to handle most of the firearms in this game anyways so you have no idea what your on about.

Rocket said he was unaware and perhaps he will change this so relax, your playing a game. I enjoy the fact the Zeds are terrifying again, I wanted them to be a threat.

What impression I get is it makes the game harder for the PVP players and benefits non PVP (Which I am pleased for)

Read the forums, You CAN kill Zeds in the open quite simply but ability is gained through practice. You will have to adapt.

Edited July 29, 2012 by Michaelvoodoo25

[Grey Warden 90]

I like shooting Zeds in the head...if they didn't move around so irratically. One second his standing there the next he sprints to me left then he walks a little and then sprints AWAY from me then to me right this time. And always seems to be when i take a shot at his head he darts away. I mean Zeds are slow moving targets or running infected right? But when did they develop the ability to 'Matrix' their way around bullets? Or simply zigzag to avoid shots as i thought they were braindead? In all films infected or zombies always just run in a straight line towards their target as they don't care for safety. Now i know this is a game and the zigzaging has been there way before the nerfed guns but at least then i could actually kill a couple before they get to me (i'm not the best shot in the world, i'm the first to admit that, but im not the worst either).

Also if its gonna take more shots then have ammo more common then as i find it so hard to find any, or the right type. But that kills immersion right if ammo is so easy to find? It also doesn't make sense that 4-5 shots in the chest with even a 9mm wouldn't kill someone (talking players here). The nerfed guns has made being a bandit easier too as the high powered rifles are still...high powered. While the people they prey on has vastly weaker weapons now, so less risk.

It is an Arm2 update i've been told not Dayz update that nerfed the guns. Hopefully it'll get put right soon if only so the Bandits don't have an even better time killing survivors ingame.

[Obsolescence 129]

I like shooting Zeds in the head...if they didn't move around so irratically. One second his standing there the next he sprints to me left then he walks a little and then sprints AWAY from me then to me right this time. And always seems to be when i take a shot at his head he darts away. I mean Zeds are slow moving targets or running infected right? But when did they develop the ability to 'Matrix' their way around bullets? Or simply zigzag to avoid shots as i thought they were braindead? In all films infected or zombies always just run in a straight line towards their target as they don't care for safety. Now i know this is a game and the zigzaging has been there way before the nerfed guns but at least then i could actually kill a couple before they get to me (i'm not the best shot in the world, i'm the first to admit that, but im not the worst either).

Also if its gonna take more shots then have ammo more common then as i find it so hard to find any, or the right type. But that kills immersion right if ammo is so easy to find? It also doesn't make sense that 4-5 shots in the chest with even a 9mm wouldn't kill someone (talking players here). The nerfed guns has made being a bandit easier too as the high powered rifles are still...high powered. While the people they prey on has vastly weaker weapons now, so less risk.

It is an Arm2 update i've been told not Dayz update that nerfed the guns. Hopefully it'll get put right soon if only so the Bandits don't have an even better time killing survivors ingame.

Why would they need to add more ammo in the game just because people can't learn to adapt and use their ammo efficiently? Use more headshots, and use them from greater distances so you don't aggro 5 at a time. Instead of shooting everything, throw a flare to distract them.

[Uncle Gapey 16]

... it seems adorably apparent that you only read it until you reached the first reference that you felt vindicated your own preconceptions.

I've included summaries in case you are still to busy to read the document you are using as evidence.

...each of the three paragraphs is laughing at you.

Thanks for the interesting document, but I think you shot yourself in the foot, so to speak.

Oof. My apologies for making you feel threatened - I've read that document in its entirety (and the original) more than once. You are really taking offense here and I've yet to insult you or your character. Paragraphs are... laughing at me? I shot myself in the foot? I have nothing to gain nor lose from this debate (though you're trying your damnedest to turn it into an argument). Anyhow, moving on.

You're losing focus of the subject again. Caliber/weapon is what this debate (this is your thread) is about. Not random numbers of random calibers. The FBI doc has awesome info, and as it says - follow-up shots are always a good idea; you might need 2 shots to make it happen. I'd rather be shot twice by 9mm than once by .45 any day. Check out that last paragraph again (probably one of the ones that's laughing at me): "...the only way to increase bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound by increasing the size of hole created by the bullet." Bigger caliber, bigger hole. .45 is the largest handgun round in DayZ. See where I'm going with this?

You shoot a human body with a .45 once. It either stops, or doesn't chase you for long before complications restrict such. You read the document - nervous system trauma, major organ trauma, and blood loss are why guns work on people. This functionality was removed from DayZ, but was realistic. Sometimes it'll require a second shot. That's cool with me. Of course no round is ever 100% guaranteed to incapacitate or kill, regardless of firearm or caliber. Just like I'm not 100% sure that I won't be hit by lightning tomorrow.

You ignored many of my points, but this seems to have become an emotional endeavor for you, so I understand. Typical LEO rounds (9mm, .40 S&W) have been found to need a couple connects to kill/incapacitate. There is another FBI doc floating around that has a ton of statistics and says in all but extreme cases, one handgun wound of any caliber ends the confrontation 99% of the time. I'd post the source if I could find it, but alas I can't. Plus, "ends the confrontation" doesn't absolutely mean death or incapacitation, so grain of salt etc.

Yes, I know handgun shots don't physically knock people from their feet. There are plenty of videos of crazy people letting their friends shoot them while they wear III-A protection/plates. A 120-lb woman running into you is ~1200 joules of energy. Most .45 rounds deliver around half that.

I'll end with the last sentence of the FBI document (my point has been the .45 is big and makes big holes that leak lots of blood):

"Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the bigger bullet."

[Zera_Grey 28]

okay so I emailed the company about how they get weapon damage info.

I asked for a simple overview, here is what I got:

Hello XXXXX,

the usual process behind the configuration of weapons is as follows:

- we start by introducing some basic values for each weapon type,

- do some the edits which are based on the publicly available knowledge on the weapons and impact ballistics,

- tweak the resulting configuration by gameplay (including the feedback from our military advisors).

If you would have any further questions, please don't hesitate to contact me.

With best regards,

Ivan Buchta

Arma 3 Creative Director

Bohemia Interactive a.s.

Edited July 30, 2012 by Zera_Grey

[freak367 24]

I'm not against the changes, as such, but it would be nice if the damage differed between guns a bit more, I mean 8 weapons all do 889 damage :/, seems like a bit of a cheap way to do it.

Say with sidearms, I'd have the damage something like, Makarov (880), PDW (920) G17 (1180) M9 (1350), M1911 (2400) Revolver (2700)

Revolver should definately be the most powerful though, but also extremely loud.