A little debate! The psychological effects of murder.

[Lady Kyrah 1109]

Lets take a fictional scneario. You are all stranded on an inhabited island. There is no help coming, there is no possible escape from the island ( for whatever reason ). It's basically, you and everyone else that was on this ship, and it's going to stay this way.

If you where to kill another of the castaways, do you believe it would psychologically harm you?

Do you believe you could do it again?

Do you believe that doing it again would make it worse or would you end up not caring anymore?

As i stated this hypothesis imply that there is no return to the civilized world, so if you are going to live in any society, it's the one you and your fellow castaway will have created.

There are a few different beliefs around the subject of murder:

• Some believe that humans are naturally good and want to help eachothers, because of this, any individual that end another human's life is basically not functioning as expected and is either mentally challenged (not knowing what theya re doing) or insane.
  
• Another group believe that humans are neither good or evil but are self interested beings, free to make whatever choice that benefit them the most.
  

So what is this murder guilt?

Is there such a thing as a "normal" person?

Is it an inherent part of being a functional human being?

Is it a feeling that is created by the social structure around us?

Are we feeling guilty because everyone pushes us to be or is it natural?

Edited July 22, 2012 by Lady Kyrah

[leodimas 31]

I would have killed all men , kept the women for my brother and me

[ZedsDeadBaby 2287]

The infected are humans too.

We're all murderers.

Edited July 22, 2012 by ZedsDeadBaby

[Disgraced 1123]

I would have killed all men , kept the women for my brother and me

I would kill all men, except this guy, make this guy eat a stew of their boiled testicles and penises.

Then I would kill all the women and bury this guy under their bodies, except his face so I could feed him my excrement while the bodies rotted as he lay under them, until I decided to jab fish bones into his eyes and suffocated him with my armpit hair.

I would then realize that there is a Disney resort on the island, steal someone's identity and passport and live a new life as a Google executive while building a rocket ship out of coconuts and Ginger's jewelry while selling nude pics of her corpse to TMZ.com.

[noobfun 87]

There are a few different beliefs around the subject of murder:

• Some believe that humans are naturally good and want to help eachothers, because of this, any individual that end another human's life is basically not functioning as expected and is either mentally challenged (not knowing what theya re doing) or insane.
  
• Another group believe that humans are neither good or evil but are self interested beings, free to make whatever choice that benefit them the most.
  

false dichotomy

were pack animals, we protect the pack even putting ourselves in harms way to do it, if pretecting the pack means killing others we do it, we dehumanise them in our mind or rationalise our actions later to appease any dought over action within the pack later, its what benefits the pack not what what benefits you 95% of the time, unless your pack consist of just you

[Nalyid 28]

Some people are sick, some people are blinded by a false sense of purpose or justice. some people are just very stable and capable of dealing with their emotions. Not everyone is going to have a problem with killing in cold blood.

Edited July 22, 2012 by Nalyid

[Lady Kyrah 1109]

false dichotomy

were pack animals, we protect the pack even putting ourselves in harms way to do it, if pretecting the pack means killing others we do it, we dehumanise them in our mind or rationalise our actions later to appease any dought over action within the pack later, its what benefits the pack not what what benefits you 95% of the time, unless your pack consist of just you

I'm jsut saying some believe that humans are "good" and some believe that humans do what's in their best interest.

[ivan keska 39]

it's in at nature to group together because we evolved as a social creature because of the inherent benefits, But we are also violent animals that also singles out those that are different (which is sad but true). But in this case there would be violence but odds are no one would die directly from other survivors because groups are always very quick to set social structures and rules, but later down the road a surviver killing another would increase.

I've been told it's not the act of murder that effect a person but it's the memory of the person itself whether it's just their face or the remembering of there corpse, you don't forget it and thats what breaks you.

As for a normal person that could best be desrcibe as someone who doesn't have a natural drive to lead and thus typically will follow, also avoid conflict as oppose to cause it or get involved (just look at video of acidents or certian events and you see people just look and keep moving only a very few get involved). Also people aren't naturally good i think they see some of are instincts and go "well thats a good thing" as oppose well thats just there and helps drive us to something but doesn't really define us. Which means we are actions are our own, but are instincts can help us go to that point in which we need to make that decision.

[SillySil 295]

If you where to kill another of the castaways, do you believe it would psychologically harm you?

Yes. Because I have a conscience. But I would do it only if it was justified i.e. defending my own or someone's life.

Do you believe you could do it again?

Do you believe that doing it again would make it worse or would you end up not caring anymore?

I have no way of knowing how would I feel after killing someone, maybe I'd be traumatized and develop a mental condition, maybe I would cope with it well. No way of knowing.

So what is this murder guilt?

People with morality and conscience think that murder is wrong and they would feel bad about themselves ("I'm a horrible person") if they'd commit a murder.

Kinda how you could consider yourself a good person but then tell someone who needs help to fuck off. You'd feel bad about yourself.

Is there such a thing as a "normal" person?

There are norms, depends what you're referring to. If we're talking about morality, normal people can function within a society without harming others.

Is it an inherent part of being a functional human being?

Is it a feeling that is created by the social structure around us?

Are we feeling guilty because everyone pushes us to be or is it natural?

It's something we have developed as herd animals over the years because we've always had the best chances of prolonging the species in a group that takes care of their own. And in order for the group to survive its' members needed not to destroy the group. The groups got bigger but the idea is the same.

Edited July 22, 2012 by SillySil

[Booker (DayZ) 47]

I think to survive, a human will do anything and justify it by any means.

[khknight 3]

I don't know about you guys, but i definitely felt pretty bad when i got my first murder. But after that murder I went from pacifist to point my gun at anyone within 10 m of me, I was done taking chances. So im pretty sure the whole guilt thing wore off on all of us and now were all use to killing. Which would happen in a real life situation too. During the first few weeks of the apocalypse, everyone feels bad if they commit a murder. But after the first year, killing becomes second nature and society has evolved to be used to it.

Basically, this game's community will never go back to what it used to be in April.

Edited July 22, 2012 by khknight

[ivan keska 39]

I don't know about you guys, but i definitely felt pretty bad when i got my first murder. But after that murder I went from pacifist to point my gun at anyone within 10 m of me, I was done taking chances. So im pretty sure the whole guilt thing wore off on all of us and now were all use to killing. Which would happen in a real life situation too. During the first few weeks of the apocalypse, everyone feels bad if they commit a murder. But after the first year, killing becomes second nature and society has evolved to be used to it.

Basically, this game's community will never go back to what it used to be in April.

But in your head you still know this is a game in real life your mind set is different because you know a mistake can screw you over. So killing that person can be much worse then leaving them alive, because what if that act causes people to distrust you and shun you out. Nothing is simple and nothing is black and white in life.

[noobfun 87]

I'm jsut saying some believe that

found the problem, what people believe at what the evidence shows is often a very different thing

[Lady Kyrah 1109]

found the problem, what people believe at what the evidence shows is often a very different thing

What does the evidence show?

[noobfun 87]

here we see ti in action, although im gonna switch 2 replies around

People with morality and conscience think that murder is wrong and they would feel bad about themselves ("I'm a horrible person") if they'd commit a murder.

Kinda how you could consider yourself a good person

so killing is bad, bad people kill, people with conciounces dont because the would feel bad and having killed someone be bad

Yes. Because I have a conscience. But I would do it only if it was justified i.e. defending my own or someone's life.

given the right motivation its now acceptable for a good person to do things bad people do if i can justify it

next tiem your in that situation you will notice its going down hill faster and then become more likley to preempt the situation, you can still justiofy this easy, 'they were gonna' 'i knew they were about to'

the more you do it the weaker the justification required, and the more you slide the 'good guy' position to match what your currently doing

sooner or later you stop justifying at all becasue you dont feel the need

There are norms, depends what you're referring to. If we're talking about morality, normal people can function within a society without harming others.

what if normal society was happy harm people?

what if ti was socially acceptable to own slaves, socially acceptable to beat torture and rape them? socially acceptable to kill them

what if functioning in society meant harming people and not really giving a rats ass about it, where would the 'good guy' profile sit then?

It's something we have developed as herd animals over the years because we've always had the best chances of prolonging the species in a group that takes care of their own. And in order for the group to survive its' members needed not to destroy the group. The groups got bigger but the idea is the same.

the group size changes all the time, my family, my firends, my friends and family, my city, my country, my favorite team, people of my religeon, people of my skin colour, people of my X that agree with me

morality/conciiounce are not fixed points on a compass they change with the situation/company you keep

[noobfun 87]

What does the evidence show?

that neiither of the above are accurate and that people who believe they are, are wrong for the most part

[zyfer.nyholm@gmail.com 131]

humans become animals the more we get integrated to our society, our society is not made by "men" it is becoming more alienate, look at the television and what that has become, its basically a whole new religion, science is a religion, except it doesnt have an object labelled god on it.

The dumb down society think we are pack animals, and think that people would just kill to kill in the real world, imo i can easily tell between whats a game and what isnt, in the game i act like the general human would act in a situation like this that has been going on for a long time and the people inside this "situation" has adapted in a KoS way, and i just go with the flow and do the same.

In RL i would not do the same as in game, i would ofc help the best way i could.

So what is this murder guilt?

Guilt about murder in a game should not really exist, ofc if you didnt do it on purpose but it should not be more than just game related, like guilt you can laugh about, it should not become ACTUAL guilt.

Is there such a thing as a "normal" person?

Yes, but its hard to come by, take our society for example, what is it being normal in this society? Pay bills, Go to work, watch tv, follow fashion, vote, get married, have some kids, and then call yourself free? that is what a normal person is today, and i have gone against the flow to pursue what i want with my life, im sick of following rules, and im sick of being like everyone else, i dont wanna get "my" gaming experience ruined, but when i play with a social group on ts, i would more than gladly risk my gaming experience for theirs to either cover them or such. But in todays world, what we call normal persons are what they called slaves back in the day, now we are just slaves to society, and soon we will be slaves to one guy or nation.

Is it a feeling that is created by the social structure around us?

Guilt and feelings come from the right side of the brain, and the social structure wants us to focus on the left side, television replaces our emotions, it also replace our emotions giving us new ones, you can take the news fx, they want to guide you towards war and depression, they show it all the time, and show all sorts of negative stuff, your unconscious mind picks this up and it keeps ringing the bell in the background asking why you torture it? but it cant be heard, so your emotions will fling out, maybe it will give you bad moodswings or might lead you towards racism, which it also had in my experience, but that changed, the social structure is still a bit of good and a bit of bad, but sooner or later if not soon it will just be bad, so far i can see we are heading that way with more and more shows like big brother or in denmark, paradise hotel, and look at it this way, if we didnt have the news, we would know shit about whats going on our there, now think if the wrong guy was actually controlling the news and information we got, how much control would that guy get? There is a secret information war going on behind everyones back, its just a matter of time before people wake up to this.

As you can also see, the music business is being more and more controlled, why do we have stuff like xfactor, usa, denmark, britain, sweden and so on, american idol, america got talent, britains got talent, when the ACTUAL famous persons are people who just suddenly appeared? and when you check them out they actually have different personalities? and what do they have in common these famous actors, singers, and whatever? they all do "the" sign, or the "signs" its their brand, or it has become their brand behind the curtain for the "sheeple" hidden in the back with a secret plan to guide the society into sex, drugs, and worshipping the materialistic sense of this earth. What is society actually contributing to? what is it doing to us? and is it good? Society is doing absolutely nothing good, its only leading us towards one path, one road, and one destiny, because if we all watch tv and all do the same like ive said, then we will live the same lives, it might be different to some people, but its not.

And now it has become a world where WE want to hear what is gonna happen to us, not just leave that curiosity by itself and then make up your own darn mind and let whatever comes come, and then take it from there, all im doing is observing the world, i dont fully integrate, i dont need to, and i can see how it changes, peoples mood, judgement, people are starting to think that they can judge because of looks, they think in their rightfully mind that what they do is right, and if someone isnt doing the same then he is "doing it wrong" we get more and more seperated.

People also develop different characters in their head, like a school character, job character, home character, personality character that can change to whoever idol they have, most people if not half of earth have different kinds of personalities, but famous persons might even have 6-7 different ones, and they give them names, and these famous persons have also use the "sold my soul to the devil" sentence.

Are we feeling guilty because everyone pushes us to be or is it natural?

Having guilt is normal, it is what you say makes us human, if you dont have any guilt you ofc are missing a vital part of your brain functionality, if you dont feel guilt you probably dont have any empathy aswell, but again, its a game, and a game cant give me guilt unless i do something that is wrong in your head, like if i had a friend, who had spent hours getting something and then i would kill him to get it, that would give me guilt even though its a game i understand that he has spent hours getting this certain thing, and since he was my friend, i would ofc get guilt

If you where to kill another of the castaways, do you believe it would psychologically harm you?

Yes, i would think it would to psycholigcal harm to me if i was to kill someone in real life, even though he was pointing the gun at me, at the moment i dont actually think i would take the shot, i might just let him kill me instead, that way i would have a clearer conscience to go on with.

This leaves out the two other questions.

I have answered this in my own clear mind, i have been woken up to my thoughts controlling me, making me say things and do things, and i can see how its affecting others aswell, when they think they gotta troll or gotta do something to harm someone else for their own fun, in real life that is, what i have done is take gaming and put it in a box called earth lol, the materialistic box where it is inevitable to do something that will piss someone else off, and if he takes it personally then its just to bad, because thats not what it was meant to be, its kinda annoying when a thought of control comes into your mind, but being awake to it basically made me able me to control myself instead of my thoughts and surroundings controlling me, this comes from society and is probably worse than being a scizophrenic but i totally get why people become scizophrenic.

This is my PoV, i wrote this in with my own opinions, and months of research into how the world looks today from how the world was back in the day, and i can see nothing has changed except a "rollback" up to the same "patch" we already had back in the day, its easy to see for me, but then again, it has taken its toll to find out how different we are when we actually arent.

Plato and da vinci also talked about various parts about society and life and the human conscience, how dark the con of man is, and letting yourself troll someone just to piss him off outside of the game, basically means you have lost the game of self control, because you wanna follow fashion and go with the flow, this being "i wanna be known as the troll".

I hope i answered your questions in a way where you can understand, alot of you will disagree with me, and thats okay, you are allowed to, but i am not gonna move my foot one bit, as this has helped me into understanding how we are not different, even though we live in different places or have different beliefs and color and, it has also helped me into becoming what i would call a better person, even though its still a fight, you could say i was a racist before, and a part of my family is aswell, it helped me into changing that mentality and part away from that part of my family when i also found out the cause of terrorism.

Remember this 3 way of control

Cause

Reaction

Solution

For a man to conquer himself is the first and noblest of all victories.

- Plato

Have a nice day

Edit: Holy snap thats alot of text.

Edited July 22, 2012 by Zyfer

[noobfun 87]

humans become animals the more we get integrated to our society

wrong way round, the more integrated we become the more people get included in the in-group, hurting the in-group is bad,

our society is not made by "men"

what men arnt animals?

it is becoming more alienate, look at the television and what that has become, its basically a whole new religion, science is a religion, except it doesnt have an object labelled god on it.

you need to go look up the deffintion of religeon and try that again

The dumb down society think we are pack animals,

they are more likley to act like pack animals and revert to smaller in-group structures

and think that people would just kill to kill in the real world,

people do kill just to kill in the real world

imo i can easily tell between whats a game and what isnt, in the game i act like the general human would act in a situation like this that has been going on for a long time and the people inside this "situation" has adapted in a KoS way, and i just go with the flow and do the same.

agreed, its become the norm its become the socially acceptable way to play for the mass of the society

In RL i would not do the same as in game, i would ofc help the best way i could.

id bet good money you would act the same, alone faced with hostile groups, youd be the same

the fact you can tell the differance between a game and reality means nothing, your neurons fire the same if its an imagined thing like the game or reality its self, the removal from a social group of peers means you dont have to moderate your behaviour as much to fit within the groups dynamics, if your grouped and on voip with players that shoot first your more likley to join them in the action, play with a similar group that prefers to avoid and your more likley yourself to avoid when with the group and for a period of time afterwards

there was an interesting post last week about a guy who's friends started playing, they turned into the asshat camp a roof in chunro for lulz asshats we all know and love, then they became obsesed with vehicles desperate to get them doing what ever it took to do it, and arguing like bitches between them selves which almost ended in several fire fights within the group, so he came up with a solution, he could have just not grouped with them anymore but his solution was frag the lot of them to teach them a lesson then stop grouping with them , people offered to help but as he had invted them to the game it was his problem so he was gonan fix it

some people dont like admitting that inside Trevor the ape is having fun and doing what he does, hence the numerous amounts of 'i shoot because i was shot' attempts to justify thier actions to what they percieve as thier peer group in a way that wont get them ostracised by said group, rather then just come out and say 'guy was heading towards me i didnt wanan die and loose my gear so i shot him in the face and robbed him, it was exciting'

Edited July 22, 2012 by stuffnthings

[Sticker704 121]

Yes

No

Not caring anymore.

[bbq (DayZ) 4]

Psychological effect?

Look at all the cool shit I got from that guy! or Damn I needed these beans so bad or maybe just lololololololololol I can't believe he trusted me. You see, all the streamers kill on sight.. So guess what new people who watch streamers and then decide to buy the game because it's on sale do? If you started this game telling yourself you are not gonna shoot on site, you're gonna have a bad time.

[zyfer.nyholm@gmail.com 131]

"wrong way round, the more integrated we become the more people get included in the in-group, hurting the in-group is bad,"

No its not the wrong way around, the more integrated we become into society, the more we need a leader, animal packs has leaders, so we become more animal like, one in control to steer .

"what men arnt animals?"

You know animals right? we are the evolution of an animal, you do know that you grow up when your a kid, i am saying we arent EXACTLY like animal, we dont walk on 4's we are animals, but we dont have the same mindset, its different, evoluted, but its only evoluted that much, yes we might think bigger, but in theory, we dont, we still need a leader, still need people to tell us how to do stuff and when and so on.

"you need to go look up the deffintion of religeon and try that again"

You need to understand what im saying and read it, im saying its BASICALLY the same as a religion, i stated that first and moved into science being a religion, understanding i say that before i say basically i basically say theory, so in THEORY, science is BASICALLY like a religion, except it doesnt have an object labelled god on it, should i really have gone that far and stated it in that way?

its the same shit all over again just in a new way, understand that THAT is the way we live, hearing the same shit in a different way, and what are the two battles between religion? Science vs Religion, that was what it was before, now its christianity vs muslims, a battle between religions, like it was in the old days. Science is just believing in what you can make and see, its an objectified religion, believe in the object, only have faith in the object(vaccines fx)

"people do kill just to kill in the real world"

Yes now they do, because of those who control our society as i said, but there is also a reason behind it, a reason most people arent ready to hear, soon, very soon people will wake up to the truth in the real world, how its all just a bad movie lol, and its gonna be a great time with hopefully lots of laugh and joy.

"agreed, its become the norm its become the socially acceptable way to play for the mass of the society"

i hope your talking about the society in the game, if you did then okay.

"id bet good money you would act the same, alone faced with hostile groups, youd be the same"

Dont even go so far as thinking you know who i am, know what i would do because you wont, you wont understand.

Edited July 22, 2012 by Zyfer

[Bianca 92]

In nature there is no Good or Evil, that's just things humans invented. We're animals and as such we exist to preserve ourselves and procreate, we can't do this alone so we create groups called "family" "friends"

Pretty simple if you think about it.

So if to preserve ourselves or our group we have to kill, we do it

Edited July 22, 2012 by Bianca

[01da 218]

Its just a game.

[puppetworx 474]

Emotions can be generally split into two categories (though different languages and cultures have established many different words for the degrees and subtleties of these emotions), these emotions are 'good' feelings and 'bad' feelings. These emotions were originally the source of our morals.

The powerful in the community enforced their standards of 'good' or 'bad' (what felt good or bad for them) onto the weaker members. With language and time the young were indoctrinated to believe that these standards were facts, devine truths and violent enforcement of these rules was only very infrequently needed. Often the ancestors who originally derived the standards and ingrained them most effectively into the community were deified.

The weaker weren't always complacent and when there feelings were breached sufficently they struck back and quashed the harsh rules or the powerful who enforced them. Modern societies still operate in this way.

The reality is that there are no absolute morals. There are only mutually beneficial rules of society. Killing another is neither right(good) or wrong(bad) except by subjective standards. For an effective society mutually beneficial rules of non-violence is the optimum for the society, not necessarily for the individual.

This is what is so great about DayZ you are thrown into complete anarchy, there are no established rules of society. The rules you play by are your own, by your own judgement and with the ability to make your own mistakes and fortune - both good and bad.

[zyfer.nyholm@gmail.com 131]

Its just a game.

FYI, he isnt talking about the game, he used the game to develop his subject yes, but thats is not whats illuminated in this case, so can it.

Edited July 22, 2012 by Zyfer