Simulating Morality?

[Kozmas 30]

I don't think something physical should happen to the player if they kill other players, simply because in real life people like animals will form packs and kill those not of their packs out of need for security, protection, and want.

There is no real way for this game to take into account the human emotion that goes into taking a life or the effect of it. Many people could care less about taking another humans life as long as they feel it is justified in their own minds.

While I am not a fan of Bandits I do understand why players may choose that route, why go look for loot when I can just take it off the guys that just picked it up and ran off the airfield? That may be a real world reason or simply its because its a game people will do it because they think it is fun to grief other players.

Either way games are not real life and there will never be a way for people to feel any real emotion toward taking the "life" of a video game character.

Now as for an in game idea which this post is about I actually think a system of notoriety should come into play. I.E. the more players you kill the easier it is to find you as a bandit, kind of like the white dots people see for Zeds, now before people flip their lid over it obviously it would have a limited range (that way players don't just instantly know where you are and hunt you down from all four corners of the map you when you join a server) and everytime you perish your slate is wiped clean.

*Edited Continuation*

The justification for the visible "dot" would be that like any other story/game out there bandits will stake their territory and rarely venture far from it, which to me makes perfect sense.

I personally would rather have the humanity system back, only re-worked. People with positive humanity around +5k would have some sort of soldier skin, like the dead soldiers you see around the military bases. Bandits would have the bandit skin at around -5k humanity. The people in between would have the normal survivor skin. But, that would take away the camo and ghillie suits.

Edited July 22, 2012 by Kozmas

[opticalshadow 27]

If you enjoyed killing people, wouldn't you be on death row long before the zombie outbreak?

I see you're point, if you want play a character that likes killing people, this idea sucks big time. But as I said in my post, if I understood the vision of this mod correctly, it's about realism (expect for the zombies. And unless you're a psychopath, killing someone is seriously going to f**k you up. Even if it's in self defense.

in a realism setting, you dotn get blurry eyes from doing soemthing, bad

in fact, nothign happen when something bad happens, the only thing that happens when something bad happens in real life, is when other people make it so, we call them police. the police are there, almost an exstention of the goverment, who have an armed force.

the whole thing boils down to, if people are players, then in real life, your punished by other players when you dont follow their rules. so if you want that in day z, get a group of a shit ton of players, and lay down the law. enforcing any sort of arbitrary system of the game punishing people will never be added to day z, rocket has made this absolutly clear, it will never be done. because that makes for a shitty game.

[Wrath (DayZ) 140]

To soon...

People say that when they make an inappropriate joke. In this case he was using it as a credible example.

[101para 0]

A touchy-CNN reporter, while interviewing a Marine sniper asked,

"What do you feel when you shoot another human being ?"

The Marine shrugged and replied, "Recoil."

No anxiety there.

Edited July 22, 2012 by 101para

[orphanstephen 11]

The game isn't reality. its survival horror. the players you kill should come back as zombies, and chase you forever!

[Kozmas 30]

A touchy-CNN reporter, while interviewing a Marine sniper asked,

"What do you feel when you shoot a terrorist?"

The Marine shrugged and replied, "Recoil."

No anxiety there.

I dunno, he seems pretty broken up about it.

[SillySil 295]

Hahaha just watch all those fucking badasses here who wouldn't give a shit after murdering people for a can of beans or for fun while in reality they've never even threw a punch.

Pathetic.

[Kozmas 30]

Hahaha just watch all those fucking badasses here who wouldn't give a shit after murdering people for a can of beans or for fun while in reality they've never even threw a punch.

Pathetic.

No, what is pathetic is that you actually tie this in to real life. Hurting a living being in real life is a horrible thing to do. Hurting pixels does not harm the person controlling the pixels.

[Oddzball 70]

Bump, to be edited ltr

[SillySil 295]

No, what is pathetic is that you actually tie this in to real life. Hurting a living being in real life is a horrible thing to do. Hurting pixels does not harm the person controlling the pixels.

What? People are posting here how not everyone feels anxiety after killing people as if it applies to them too. Read the thread?

[Kozmas 30]

What? People are posting here how not everyone feels anxiety after killing people as if it applies to them too. Read the thread?

I have read every post in this thread several times, actually. No one in this thread has said that they would personally have no problem killing people in real life. People have used examples from military personnel both caring and not caring if they killed people. Perhaps you should read the thread more carefully before making accusations.

[Oddzball 70]

Most of you all are so full of shit it astounds me.

Acting like you "know" how people should feel if they kill someone.

Some people feel guilty, some people dont, but it always depends on the situation.

I've killed several people. And in all the situations I did so it was to protect myself or those around me. And while I feel a slight twinge of guilt, I am not all broken up over it.

Am I right in the head? Maybe not, a lot of folks say I lack empathy, or I am cold or heartless. But even having actually killed people before, I can tell you that it does effect your body in physical ways, the adrenaline rush, the fear.

What I can say is it got easier to pull the trigger ever time you had to do it again. So maybe there is a physcologocal price to be paid for killing people.

Edited July 22, 2012 by Oddzball

[01da 218]

Most of you all are so full of shit it astounds me.

Acting like you "know" how people should feel if they kill someone.

Some people feel guilty, some people dont, but it always depends on the situation.

I've killed several people. And in all the situations I did so it was to protect myself or those around me. And while I feel a slight twinge of guilt, I am not all broken up over it.

Am I right in the head? Maybe not, a lot of folks say I lack empathy, or I am cold or heartless. But even having actually killed people before, I can tell you that it does effect your body in physical ways, the adrenaline rush, the fear.

What I can say is it got easier to pull the trigger ever time you had to do it again. So maybe there is a physcologocal price to be paid for killing people.

Interesting chronicle, sibling.

[Ankhenaten 111]

Dunno, I play FPS since ages. Never gave a sh|t about blasting other pixels, cause the games were designed that way. Everyone shoots everybody. Today I shot a non bandit. The two guys were running around Elektro blasting everything they could. I found a dead body in the church. I stayed there 20 minutes while I continously heard shots and the flies over the dead body behind me. Then I went out, met them at the supermarket, shot one and the other one says, "I guess you are not a friendly then". They were fully armed as far as I could see from the recording i took. Since there were only 4 people on the server and I saw one die before I exited the church .. tough luck.

I didn't go after the second guy and legged it.

Personally I am not really after murders, but if you roll into a city in the middle of the night like the f*cking cavalry, with bodies lying around, assume people get a bit edgy.

DayZ is cool, if you shoot someone it makes you think.

Edited July 22, 2012 by Ankhenaten

[Oddzball 70]

Interesting chronicle, sibling.

It is what it is man.

I would like to believe people would feel bad about killing other people, but I have seen that a lot of people are capable of some trully evil fucking things.

I was in Baghdad in 2003 and we were "cleaning out" a torture chamber in one of Sadam's palaces. He had spilled so much blood in there the tiles were stained red. You think he felt bad about that? Nope.

But guess what, Sadam was fucking bat shit crazy too. So maybe murdering people does mess with your head.

[gizm0 96]

DayZ is real life? Use common sense next time, please.

so your saying its fine to use game mechinics to even the playing field?

[Kozmas 30]

so your saying its fine to use game mechinics to even the playing field?

I don't get what you mean. Are you saying I support the bullshit about feeling anxiety after killing someone?

[gizm0 96]

I don't get what you mean. Are you saying I support the bullshit about feeling anxiety after killing someone?

No I'm saying either pick a side: either dayz is to be treated as a game or its to be treated as real life (realism). I don't like it when people only use one side when its convenient for their argument. So if its real we don't let players just kill without ever realizing they just killed another person, someone's son or daughter, maybe someone's mother or father, or we treat it as a game and give survivors a way to tell a bandit just from sight.

what I've seen recently is that when ever somebody suggests a way to help out survivors, they get told its not realistic, so than a realistic option is suggested, and they are told dayz is only a game. See what I'm getting at here?

Edited July 22, 2012 by Orthus

[Kozmas 30]

No I'm saying either pick a side: either dayz is to be treated as a game or its to be treated as real life (realism). I don't like it when people only use one side when its convenient for their argument. So if its real we don't let players just kill without ever realizing they just killed another person, someone's son or daughter, maybe someone's mother or father, or we treat it as a game and give survivors a way to tell a bandit just from sight.

I say play it however the hell you want. If you want to go around murdering everything in sight that's perfectly fine. If you want to be a nice guy that helps people, that's also equally as fine. But yea, I support being able to spot bandits some how. But nothing that gives you an advantage over said bandit.

[Munx 1]

I really like parts of this idea, and I think it would be a good feature.. however I think it would even better if you only got the effect the 5 first kills or so.

It makes sense that a killer would eventually grow cold and would no longer be affected much by emotions like real human beings.

This would allow bandits that had "earned" the right to be coldblooded murders a reward for going trough that phase, as they would no longer be affected by it.

Obviously it should start over every new life.

[j_riddell@live.com 32]

No one with a working brain loves to kill people, especially not if the human race is in serious thread.

This is incorrect and should not be taken as fact. Your definition of working is not the actual definition of working.

The fact of the matter is it is a game that has PvP elements. You do not have some sort of meter that measures your humanity/morality in most other common games with a PvP feature. It's meant to simulate real life. It is the end of the world, and in most end of the world scenarios, there are very few rules. If there were ever to be some sort of zombie apocolypse in the real world, I can tell you I wouldn't have any issues shooting someone I deemed a threat to my or my friends/families survival. And that's the point in DayZ, it puts you in a state of mind where you have to make those kinds of decisions.

Edited July 22, 2012 by DEADS0NG

[REVOLT (DayZ) 12]

A system is in the works to spot bandits. Right now the idea is that if you aim at a bandit. Your heart will start pounding. The more murders they have, the louder the heartbeat. It's just an idea right now. Rocket made a thread about it.

[DeadManDan 23]

Shouldn't this topic go in the suggestions forum? The garbage pale for ideas rocket and devs don't want to read.

I feel like any sort of morality system shouldn't make things harder for bandits. I would like to see something along the lines of psychosis induced from playstyle. Such as generally killing every player on sight gives you a slightly heightened sense in spotting survivors but makes them look like zombies, or helping other players increases your radius of communication. But that might be a little too rpg like.

Edited July 22, 2012 by DeadManDan

[*Regulator* Curt 93]

This is incorrect and should not be taken as fact. Your definition of working is not the actual definition of working.

The fact of the matter is it is a game that has PvP elements. You do not have some sort of meter that measures your humanity/morality in most other common games with a PvP feature. It's meant to simulate real life. It is the end of the world, and in most end of the world scenarios, there are very few rules. If there were ever to be some sort of zombie apocolypse in the real world, I can tell you I wouldn't have any issues shooting someone I deemed a threat to my or my friends/families survival. And that's the point in DayZ, it puts you in a state of mind where you have to make those kinds of decisions.

Nobody is suggesting anything that penalizes PvP heavily, but rather, something that gives you a reason not to play it as if it were team death match. Your scenario suggests that you have no problem with killing someone who's a threat to you... that's a fair statement. But that's not what we're trying to counter, we're fine with self defense. We are not fine with 1/2 of the playerbase killing other players just for the lulz. A lot of the time, they don't even loot them, they just shoot/axe and walk away (I've had that happen twice at this point, saw a friend gunned down and the guy just walked away -- no looting).

The problem is that people shoot people -- not because there's a good, logical reason (defense, loot etc.). They shoot someone because they're bored, or because it's fun. Not to mention, humans have an intuitive fear of combat -- for good reason. You don't know your enemies capabilities, you may think they're unarmed... yet they may have a sidearm somewhere, they may have friends nearby etc. etc. If we're going for a realistic approach, there are just too many reasons *not* to kill on sight, and too few reasons to kill on sight. The truth of the matter is, we can approach DayZ from 3 standpoints:

1. It's all about freedom. You can do whatever you want -- within reason. This may be more fun for certain individuals, but the lack of structure will hurt the game more overall than it will help it. If players are left purely to their own devices, then they'll ruin the game. I've seen it happen twice before in other MMOs.

2. It's all about realism. You're restricted -- only by what you would be if this were real. In which case, there are a number of factors to take in when dealing with killing others: How well armed are they, are they with a group, what are their intentions, what would I gain from doing this etc. none of which are every taken into account when people kill other people. They just kill them -- on sight, no thought, just the reward of destroying another person's work (humans are twisted like that, thank you evolution!).

3. It's about what is best for gameplay purposes. Any artificial restriction can be imposed -- realistic or no. This would overall be pretty bad for the game, because the feeling of realism is really the only thing that makes Day Z attractive.

Can anyone here say, that the game is funner now, than when you first played it. Ideally, we need to strike a balance between the three. Giving players freedom enough to feel in control and as if they're left to their own devices, making sure the game fits within realism as well as can be expected for a game, and making it so players are funneled towards the most enjoyable way to play the game. People have different tastes, you will never satisfy everybody. I can however, with a reasonable amount of certainty say that most people do not like the current death match. The game's overall appeal outshines that huge downside, but it'd be a lot better if it were removed.

I think you'll find the following suggestions are realistic, help combat death match gameplay that most people don't want, and still allow for freedom without being too harsh of punishments:

1. When you loot a player body, blood is left on your clothes that is very easily identifiable. This makes it so self defense killing is not punished, but that murdering wildly for loot can have consequences. Once you change clothes however, the blood is removed.

2. For your first murder, you are given an after effect of shakiness and blurry vision -- no matter in self defense or not. This is simply realistic, it shouldn't last too long (10-15 minutes) but it should be there to give a reason to avoid confrontations.

3. Guns should make more noise -- or zombies should hear the noise of guns better. In real life, guns can be heard from *very, very, very, very, very* far away. Zombies, having better hearing, should be drawn to the guns from farther away. Pistols especially, it's a common misconception that they're far quieter than rifles. While this is true in some (maybe most) cases, they're actually very, very loud (and often louder than bigger guns). This will make it so being very careful (as you would in real life) is necessary to your survival. Weapons should only be used in last case scenarios, or battles far away from towns. In real life, you'd draw zombies, survivors etc. by the sound of your guns.

4. Players should be able to easily tell the direction of gun shots. Simply put, it's too hard to find out where shots are coming from, when in real life it's fairly easy to tell. By shooting, you give away your position, thereby drawing bandits or survivors who kill bandits to you, further making kill on sight a bad idea *and* making it more realistic.

I believe these four things, would make grouping more likely, make death match less common, make banditry a lot more difficult but more exciting and reward, and make the game more realistic and detailed.

Bonus suggestion:

5. Sniper rifles make super-duper extra crazy mega noise. It's too easy to sit back and snipe all day, and there's almost no reason to get any other weapon than a sniper at the moment.

Tl;dr: Read it lazy!

Edited July 22, 2012 by Brad_B