Let's Fix/Replace the Bandit System! - My Witness/Social System Suggestion

[bobbyweenus 17]

Crossposted from the thread announcing the Bandit system being disabled:

The most realistic way to add a moral / decision making devise that stops people from wide scale slaughtering everyone they see is socially. Realistically that is how the world works, not a number value humanity system.

Relying on something to be socially driven is dangerous, as it could be easily trolled and such. Here's my idea anyway, let me know what you think:

The relatively failed semi-MMOFPS game APB has a witnessing system. When a cop character see's a criminal character stealing a car or killing someone or running a robbery, he holds down a button (lets use tab for the sake of DayZ) and it witnesses the criminal, registering it as a crime if it is one, and sending out an APB. We can take a note from that. If a bandit/murderer character's reputation were to be sullied, someone would have to survive or witness his wrong doing.

So lets say there are 3 players in a forest. Bandit, Survivor 1 and Survivor 2. Bandit sees Survivor 1, he shoots him and likely kills him, but he never saw Survivor 2, as S2 was further away and hiding. S2 would hold down tab, to witness the murder. This registers this player as a murderer in S2's eyes. Since player models, even with some more skins, cannot be described to each other, we have to let the game/engine do the work and fill in the blanks. IRL, I would describe someone as tall, short, skinny, fat, and their facial features, since we can't do that in-game, the witnessing system would effectively do that for the player, using the game to commit the players 'appearance' to memory, or data.

This brings up the social aspect. Now lets say you meet another survivor and briefly talk without murdering each other. You could then pass along or trade the 'witnessing data', the in-game equivalent of telling the other survivor what happened and describing the murderer, and telling them to steer clear. Players could accumulate witnessing data, trade it and pass it along to each other, effectively creating a social reputation system that isn't an arbitrary number or something that magically works.

This creates a demand for social interaction, allowing us to have those perhaps tense moments of uncertainty around a player instead of just killing each other. This creates a demand for players to perhaps create trading posts naturally in-game and gives players a reason to maybe be diplomatic rather than violent or psychotic.

The thing this would do, assuming we're playing on servers without gamertags showing up (hopefully), is maybe add some kind of noticeable marking on a player if you've heard that he is a murderer. Maybe even just a slight red tint to their gun, or add something slightly to their face, or even just an asterix near them when you look. This is something we, or Rocket, would have to figure out, what would be the best without breaking immersion.

Murderers could wear facemask, the one used on the bandit skin, to make themselves un-witnessable. The negative effect of that is that other players, true to life, would see someone wearing a facemask as threatening. Think about this. You're walking through a parking lot. Someone walks by you wearing a bandana over their face. Wouldn't you wonder why that guy had his face obscured? It makes you think, and it gives a trade off. You are untrackable, but you are threatening looking. This fits in with players, "Dressing to their playstyle" as Rocket stated he wanted to implement.

If a player dies, his witnessing data is wiped, and witnessing data about him is wiped, as it is permadeath, a new death means a new character. This is about as realistic as I can think of. The only way a murderer is traceable is if he leaves a witness, and even then, that witness has to spread the word.

Input, Suggestions or ideas?

[That Lamer 0]

This is the best way of implementing "repercussions" for killing and negative humanity I've read. As a bandit, I'm not all too concerned with it. I'll just have to make sure there are no witnesses if I plan on killing people and then blending into groups.

My only concern is with how the spotting would work. What happens if you're in a barn while your friend watches outside, and then I shoot him from 200m? There needs to be something that prevents you from just peaking around the corner and witnessing the murder after the fact. Perhaps you need to target and witness both the body and the murderer?

[bobbyweenus 17]

Interesting question, and thanks for the feedback!

I think you bring up a good point that sometimes, things aren't going to be so cut and dry... but if my friend walks into a barn, I hear a gunshot, you walk out and leave, then I walk in and my friend is dead, I think it's a pretty clear example that you killed him.

I suppose here we would have to fudge it a little bit. Maybe using the witness button on both the suspect (you) and the victim (the friend) within a certain period of time? I think the system would have to only work if someone had actually done damage to the victim, to avoid trolling, griefing, or false positives.

The system could account for not seeing the actual killing blow by thinking about deductive logic. If I hear a revolver go off, my friend dies, and you walk out holding a revolver, you know what I mean? It sorta explains itself so we could add some grace period for witnessing.

[Mars (DayZ) 6]

As much as I like the Bounty/Witnessing/Passport system, I dont think it would be added.

For these reasons:

1.- Complexity: What you are describing sounds like a lot of work would be involved. If I were to suggest a solution, I would suggest something just as easy as to remove the whole Bandit system. Keep it simple, yet efficient.

2.- Unrealistic: It is self descriptive, even if Rocket himself said "That's not what is happening here. I'm not looking at something realistic, that isn't possible. I'm aiming for authenticity to the extent possible, but I'm realistic about what can be achieved there." So, to suggest a solution we must work with that in mind.

3.- Credibility: Bandits are known to lie and deceive, but in reality anyone can do it, even newbie survivors. The truth is, the system is flawed. What stops me from putting a bounty on someone that killed defending himself? Or an enemy? Remember... "Everybody lies". This is why even fixing the communication problem, nothing would change. In a fucked up world you have to lie to survive.

The reasons I think the system works well right now are simple.

Why do Bandits kill? There are a number of valid reasons: For the lulz, for Loot, for Food, for revenge (being killed too much by deceiving survivors). While Bandits get a cool, functional actually (I tested it) Camo suit, it also marks them as... well, Bandits. It has pros and cons, and thats the way it should be. They also have to work if they want to keep their humanity, which leads to interesting strategies, like helping survivors and then killing them. Everyone learns about this. Taking this away will lead to distrust and shoot-on-sight everywhere (because of the reason you have already given).

Anyway, while I think Rocket will read our ideas, I doubt he would implement anything we say (tho he could surprise me, as I dont know the man), but its fun to play and dream with ideas, so I would say we work with Complexity, Authenticity and Credibility.

A simple, yet perfect and fair solution.

[logan66 3]

Perhaps a simple translation of Humanity to Reputation would be feasible to implement? People in the middle ranges are anonymous, while people at the extremes are recognizable - either as known killers or known "saints". The automatic triggering of reputation from killing or helping seems like an approximation of rumor and information sharing without requiring the in-game mechanics. And it would be harder to gimmick than 3rd party voting (i.e. witnessing).

Also, perhaps recognition could have a threshold of proximity - you have to be close enough before you get the indicator (color of name?).

I agree that without any consequences for helping or preying upon fellow survivors, the game will probably degrade into nothing more than deathmatch + zombies.

My 2 cents.

[bobbyweenus 17]

1.- Complexity: What you are describing sounds like a lot of work would be involved. If I were to suggest a solution' date=' I would suggest something just as easy as to remove the whole Bandit system. Keep it simple, yet efficient.[/quote']

Nothing else would be just as easy as removing something... but you're right, it's a lot of work, but so is any reasonable feature. The general ideas are pretty simple, it's just information that gets processed and traded between clients. The game already has code in place that decides whether a kill is righteous or underhanded, that's the humanity system. It already has a tagging system upon mouse over, that's the name tag showing up. It's just about tying all of these things together.

It is definitely a boat load of work, but it's the closest thing to simulating social word of mouth on a video game that doesn't offer much identity between players.

2.- Unrealistic: It is self descriptive' date=' even if Rocket himself said "That's not what is happening here. I'm not looking at something realistic, that isn't possible. I'm aiming for authenticity to the extent possible, but I'm realistic about what can be achieved there." So, to suggest a solution we must work with that in mind.[/quote']

I don't really see what is unrealistic about it. It forces murderers to make sure they don't leave loose ends. The process of clicking buttons to witness and trading the data back and forth is just a simulation of a player seeing someone, learning their physical features and describing it to another person in a social setting as it would happen IRL. You're not supposed to look at the data trading as data from an in character stand-point, you're supposed to see it as sharing a story socially.

3.- Credibility: Bandits are known to lie and deceive' date=' but in reality anyone can do it, even newbie survivors. The truth is, the system is flawed. What stops me from putting a bounty on someone that killed defending himself? Or an enemy? Remember... "Everybody lies". This is why even fixing the communication problem, nothing would change. In a fucked up world you have to lie to survive.[/quote']

While I completely agree and think this is the kind of thing that would make the game interesting, lying and putting up false bounties... unfortunately, the game doesn't give us enough information about individuals to do anything else really.

I foresee this game going a bit more towards veteran and hardcore servers, without the name tags showing up. I've used name tags to my advantage in other games before, where you can see someone's name through cover before you see the player itself, so I really see this being fazed out of DayZ in the future. It also breaks immersion big time.

Unfortunately, outside of a gamer tag, how could you possibly describe a player, especially, cross server? This game world is bigger than the 50 players on your immediate server. Even in a perfect world, there wouldn't be enough skins to give everyone a unique visual element, and with limited facial skins... there is just no way to say, "hey man, I saw this guy murdering survivors! He's about 6'1, probably 200lbs, red hair, blue eyes..." etc etc. Which is why I say the game should take over that 'hole' so to speak, by taking out the need for us to verbally describe players by having the game do that work for you.

You mention survivors murdering for revenge, that is meta-gaming, and should be frowned upon in a perma-death environment. It's one of the reasons I think my idea would actually work. With the 'witness data' being erased upon death, the actions of others on you, or visa versa, is erased when a new character is created. It's a new character, it shouldn't carry on, and if a player is so petty that he'll just keep respawning and attacking the same person over and over again, either for revenge or griefing purposes, that's when an admin should come in to play.

The deterrence of murder in the witness system is that it would HOPEFULLY create a social system that gives players a reason to be more social and have more interaction if they would like to learn about the threats around the lands. If you look through a lot of post-apocalypse fiction, information is extremely important, so much so it's a commodity. In the show Jericho, there was a central trading town, which was at times violent and dangerous, where there was a board listing places destroyed in the apocalypse and places still active (if I recall). These things are important in a world that you are learning or don't quite know. The trade of information on murderers, I believe, would become a commodity in DayZ. It's better fleshed out than the bandit or humanity system because it is not something that can be grinded or gamed. It's entirely action based, it's a chance some people would be willing to take, and it requires bandits/murderers to be more thorough, plan ahead, and make sure they don't leave loose ends, rather then running and gunning and murdering frivolously in a DM way. If they do play like that, word would travel very fast (as it would in a real setting) and their life would become that much more dangerous.

@logan66, adding another system such as reputation is just something that people could grind and work around in a unrealistic way. The theory behind my system is that is requires 'word of mouth' of sorts, rather than a mysterious magic number that people telepathically process the importance of.

[275RR 1]

Some of my ideas for possible change.

In Day Z, it is day 0 so any organization/co-op in the world is minimal. Any differentiation should be subtle at best. As you play though you are going from day 0 to day x so maybe some lite organization could be accepted?

I like the "blood on clothes until you change outfits idea." I think daimyo? offered that idea. Outfits would need to be rare enough so that effect mattered though.

1. The American frontier or Wild West had a low level of civilization.

2. Maybe if you acquire enough humanity, you get a sheriff badge? or some inferred "community assistance" like an free m1911?

3. Maybe cities start showing up with bounty posters as someones humanity falls more and they become infamous. That player's name could have a "bandit" tag to simulate the public awareness of their face?

THIS IS ALPHA! Change all the things!

*edit: I saw a comment that skins might have been removed because it made it too easy to avoid bandits. I think the sheriff badge might be the answer to this. You would have to be close to see it. It focuses on the "good" people wanting to work with other "good" people instead of the bandit who just wants to kill. It would be easy to skin and implement. It fits with the idea of adding many outfits.

[bobbyweenus 17]

275RR, really like your bloody skin idea. It's not perfect, and there are 'in-character' or realism flaws to it but I find it to be subtle enough to work for both sides. I also like the idea of badges for 'good' or helpful players, it gives some people something to work towards. The idea of a patchwork sheriff's faction sounds very cool, and it's really not out of the realm of possibility even on the early days of a zombie apocalypse. Some people would try to organize something to give people hope.

[B00tsy (DayZ) 19]

Yeah being a bandit is way to attractive now and there are way to many shooting other players without some repercussions (I don't die by Zeds,but by bandits all the time). My idea would be simple to implement, and that is: Every bandit can not use a backpack anymore, thus can carry only a small amount of loot... thus making it more pointless to hunt for the loot of other players as they can't carry all the loot. Or, They can't use rifles anymore as a repercussion, would be an effective penalty.

[275RR 1]

275RR' date=' really like your bloody skin idea. It's not perfect, and there are 'in-character' or realism flaws to it but I find it to be subtle enough to work for both sides. I also like the idea of badges for 'good' or helpful players, it gives some people something to work towards. The idea of a patchwork sheriff's faction sounds very cool, and it's really not out of the realm of possibility even on the early days of a zombie apocalypse. Some people would try to organize something to give people hope.

[/quote']

Just for clarification: Daimyo (sp?) came up with the bloody outfits for PKers. I do like the idea and wanted to mention it again.

I'm just tossing out multiple ideas, but the sheriff badge is my favorite. I think it can be considered "realistic." Say make the badge appear on a player at 3500 humanity or some number. In order to get to that level you would have to live for awhile so it wouldn't be day 0 anymore. Some organization could be envisioned. Humanity might have to be re-worked because of the flaws in the system.

As far as gameplay, it can also be a subtle way to encourage team play without forcing a play style. You still have the suspense of not knowing who is a bandit because they could just be another survivor on a new character. Also, a sheriff could kill at any time and just lose the badge and look like everyone else. It leaves things very open, but just encourages the idea of being in a community of "good" people.

Personally, as long as Rocket keeps things brutal as he puts it, I'm happy.

Also, thanks for the updater Weenus. Great work! I can't seem to get it to run on one of my machines though. Does it not work with Java 64-bit?

[bobbyweenus 17]

Yeah being a bandit is way to attractive now and there are way to many shooting other players without some repercussions (I don't die by Zeds' date='but by bandits all the time). My idea would be simple to implement, and that is: Every bandit can not use a backpack anymore, thus can carry only a small amount of loot... thus making it more pointless to hunt for the loot of other players as they can't carry all the loot. Or, They can't use rifles anymore as a repercussion, would be an effective penalty.

[/quote']

You're focusing too much on balancing the game. That's the wrong direction for this. It's not about balancing the game, it's about simulating the decision you have to make to kill a human being in cold blood. In real life, there are physical and psychological triggers that make that decision so hard for the vast majority of people. In this video game, bandit players should have to think further than simply "there's a target! *bang bang bang*". It would make every single kill a decision. It's also realistic in the sense that a murderer shouldn't be leaving loose ends if he hopes to remain anonymous.

Personally' date=' as long as Rocket keeps things brutal as he puts it, I'm happy.

Also, thanks for the updater Weenus. Great work! I can't seem to get it to run on one of my machines though. Does it not work with Java 64-bit?

[/quote']

Yes, the brutality is one of my favorite aspects of DayZ.

I didn't make the updater by the way... not sure about it working on different versions.