Use weight on items

[L0G!N (DayZ) 149]

Please use weight on items to 'reduce' the amount of items a player can carry with them (esp. heavy ones), and have the weight influence the movement speed of a character !

Currently the only limiting factor on items is size, and some items are not even adjusted in size correctly (i know alpha ;) ), but besides size, there is also the weight of an item. And as the old riddle goes: what weighs more a kilo of feathers or a kilo of lead; it illustrates how size alone can be a unauthentic and even misleading. A good example for DayZ in it's current state would be: what weighs more, an empty or a filled JerryCan?

Obviously size would still be a good way to controll inventory space, as some items are just realy important (while being light) and 'one' doesn't want a player to carry around a lot of them. But if used wisely, using weight in combination with size can mean that the loss of items due to size can be avoided (f/e make a rifle take up 5 slots but give it it's original weight, meaning it will now fit in the Czech and Starter backpacks without disappearing, it still takes up a chunk of space, but it won't disappear because it's size matches the size of the backpack and that bugs something out somehow.

So using size and weight together will give a more subtle way to balance items for the Dev's and for us players to end up with a more 'believable' game (avoiding 'real' on purpose ;) )...

How to implement this

First off all the items would have to have a weight added to them, not sure if this can be done in the Arma Engine, but if not than this feature is not possible. But seeing it be a nice feature to have in Arma3 as well, adding it to Arma2 can be a sollution... And yes i know it can be a lot of tedious work, but once the current items are done, all that is left is filling in the weight on new item creation, which isn't more than just putting a couple of digits in, and it will fuel a whole gameplay system.

Another thing that would need to be done is add a speed modifier to the movement speed function:

- move_speed = base_speed * speed_modi

And then add the following formula, values and restrictions:

- speed_modi = 100(%) - (tot_weight/base_weight) * 10

- tot_weight = SUM(weight_itemX)

- base_weight = 15000 (15kg)

*!* use the following bit of code to avoid a negative modifer {IF speed_modi =< 0, then speed_modi = 0.01}

The tot_weight simply adds all the weight of items on a character together. The base weight determains a start weight for the character, in regards to the maximum weight they can carry. So with 15kg set as base, the max that can be carried is 150kg.

*!* Do note that you can still pick up items that are over this maximum, you just move at 0.01x the basespeed, so if you have a chopper or a car next to you, you can still pick up this item and drop it in, and then just drive off into the sunset!

Icon to indicate influence of weight

To give the user some feedback on the amount of weight they carry and the influence of this weight on their character.

I would propose a flexed 'muscled' arm, that turns ever more red the more weight is carried. Obviously the player would notice that when heavily packed they can no longer outrun Zed's.

Integration of Strength

In a now lost thread it was pointed out that some people are stronger than others, military personel being able to carry 30kg with fair ease (while some of this is due to the gear they wear, see backpacks below; it also has to do with strength). This led me to 'belief' that a character should be able to grow in strength as they continue to live in DayZ.

This also gives the option to have certain parts or items be 'more' restricted for more underdeveloped characters, and in most cases these items are there for these longer survivors anyways. But it be nice if a player picks up say a tanktrap as a fresh spawn and notice it being heavy, while this item is relatively 'lighter' when this player returns after a long prosperous life.

What would influence strength? well in my views these would be:

- time alive, this to compensate for all sorts of thing you do that may increase strength but aren't easily measurable

- distance traveled, this to simulate running around with heavy stuff on your back increasing your strength

- amount of heavy lifting, this to directly (though slowly) simulate lifting heavy stuff to increase strength

These factors would add to the base_weight variable (in the formula above set at 15kg). Now obviously there should be a maximum strength applied to what each of these strength influencers can add to the base_weight. I freely assume each of these factors are able to add 5kg to the base_weight, so that a fully developed fit character can carry 30kg, which sets the max at 300kg for not being able to move.

- base_weight = 15000 + time_weight + distance_weight + lifted_weight

Seeing there are various ways to limit the amount to 5kg max per factor and i do not know what would be the optimal timing to have things increase, ill leave this upto the dev's. For the lifted_weight i would suggest something simple like:

- weight_lift = {IF pick_up_weight >= 5000, then lifted_weight = lifted_weight +1}

As that would have to run everytime you pick up an item...

Integration of Condition

Obviously your physical condition would also influence the amount of weight you can carry around, and so base_weight should also be influenced by a player being:

- wounded, having a fracture or broken limbs, the amount of weight easily carried should be reduced, and the weight that is left may well feed back into the amount of pain you experience.

- amount of blood, if you are 'weak' by loss of blood, you should not be able to carry much weight

- sickness, while not yet in the game, if you are sick you are likely weaker, having an effect on the amount of weight you can carry

- thirst and hunger status, these only become a facter at a certain point, as these influence the capability of being physically active, and thus how 'strong' you are.

Some of these may reduce your 'strength' or base_weight by a lot, while others only by a few kilos.

base_weight = 15000 + time_weight + distance_weight + lifted_weight - wound_weight - blood_weight - sick_weight - hunger_weight - thirst_weight

Integration of Backpacks

Different backpacks can carry different weights based upon the size and shape of the backpack. The closer weight is to the center of mass of the body the easier it is to carry. A small pack with good straps and belts can carry more weight easily than a tall pack with good belts and straps, mainly because a tall pack will put more weight further away from your center of mass.

Some packs may even influence a person negative, f/e putting something heavy in a cheap 'school-backpack' will cut in your flesh, hurting you... so each backpack should have different 'stats' influencing the amount of weight it can carry, limits to be set by the devs...

base_weight = 15000 + BACKPACK + time_weight + distance_weight + lifted_weight - wound_weight - blood_weight - sick_weight - hunger_weight - thirst_weight

Influence on other 'physical' systems

As various people have pointed out, this system should also be influenced by or influence a much needed 'fatigue/ stamina/ endurance/ tiredness/ etc' system, preventing people from running till 'kingdom come'. Seeing feedback loops are generally not a good idea in coding, i would have the two defining systems of this idea influence the 'fatigue' system in the following way, mainly:

- tot_weight/base_weight

To determain how much 'load' is carried (tot_weight) in relation to howmuch load could be carried (strength) with ease (expressed in the base_weight variable). Which would obviously not only determain how fast you are going, but also have an impact on howlong you can keep that speed going. A similar formula as used above could influence the 'time' a certain speed can be maintained, or how fast one would get tired.

Implementation general

While this likely doesn't interest anyone but the dev's, i still need to get it out of my head while it's there. This whole formula is rather demanding, and if Arma or Mod has to go through the whole of it everytime you pick something up it may well 'bork' the whole game. So I would suggest adding in some 'static' variables (by lack of a better word), to hold sub_totals at various interfalls, this will speed up calculations and thus make this system 'lighter' on the Mod.

IMPORTANT NOTICE, disclaimer!

This OP is a reconstruction of an earlier thread, while i made the OP in that thread as well, during the conversation that followed the OP grew to what you just read, so by no means is all of this the result of just my work, feedback/suggestions/questions from other people grew this suggestion! Unfortunatly i can't credit people by name, as i have no clue whom said what in the original thread.

tnx for reading this small sized book, amazed you made it to the end :)

Edited July 15, 2012 by L0GIN

[L0G!N (DayZ) 149]

woot I made it to the end and restored the 'use weight thread' well the OP with everything that came from the discussion anyways... have fun! i need some DayZ now !!

[Zera_Grey 28]

I like this idea it would keep people from just picking up every thing. you would have to decide is it worth carrying will I need it now. in a post apocalyptic world carrying to much would be deadly since you can't run as fast or as long. this needs to be implemented with a fatigue system and change the chase you forever and ever zombies.

[L0G!N (DayZ) 149]

Yeah i know that a stamina, fatigue, endurance system of sorts would add even more dynamics to this, but i figure that Rocket is well aware of permarunning and that it's likely been suggestion a gazillion times already ;) ... so i left it out... but yeah, it would fit in nicely!

[paradox. 12]

brilliant idea and just the depth you went into its very nice.

[Barney (DayZ) 9]

Yes,That is an exellent brain you have...Nice thinking.

Leave the zombie with speed hack.

And leave us with a WEIGHT system.

Yeah it's gonna be impossible to out-run a zombie in this game then.

Everything you see is important.

[L0G!N (DayZ) 149]

Yes,That is an exellent brain you have...

you are not 'infected' are you ?

[takfar@gmail.com 24]

I like the idea, I just don't know if it should directly affect speed. Someone fleeing a zombie will have adrenaline pumping at full power, and will run very fast. HOWEVER, if coupled with a stamina system, said person will eventually tire, and be forced to slow down, or pass out. The heavier the load, the faster stamina goes out. A specific strength attribute may or may not be needed (it could be folded into an endurance skill, which would also control how long you'd be able to run for, in any case)

[L0G!N (DayZ) 149]

Well as said a bit above, i do think either stamina/endurance/condition/fatigue w/e to call it system should be influenced by weight, and not so much the other way around, as the weight influences how fast you would get tired (and while the opposite is also true, a feedback loop in coding tends to just screw things up) ... i do think strength is completely different from endurance, though they do influence eachother, a stronger person will tire less quickly with a certain load than a weaker person. So instead of choosing for one or the other, i would always choose to have both, makes for a more complex system which will be more subtle and thus feel more natural ...

Seeing stamina/endurance/condition/fatigue system is brought up again, i will add it to the OP, so people wont have to mention it again :) ... I will also add the following more clearly as i think it's important (in regards to people praising me personally) this OP is a remake of an entire thread that got lost, so not all the things in the OP were thought up by me, they originated by interesting contributions/feedback/questions from other people, whom i can't give credit by name since the original thread is gone ... so while i like being complemented please realize that it's not all my work ;)

[Absolute Killer 0]

great idea - i would love to see some sort of weight system implimented into the game so that it would be a more strategical decision when putting stuff on your back

being a stronger player but carrying fewer things could definitely be advantageous giving you a little extra (but not unrealistic) speed boost

[That Guy (DayZ) 46]

Isn't this what backpacks are for? we are already barely able to carry anything. Plus barney is right, even if he didn't have to add the sarcasm, zombies are just a hair slower than us right now if we get slowed down at all trying to run away from them will be in vain.

[harley001 315]

I am cool with it. Just don't add weight to ammo *seriously i have held bullets you could have a bag of 100 of them and not feel much* and food/water. Because in dayz why a normal person would only need 3 cans of beans you character has a hunger issue and needs one can half a hour. And two things of water/soda.

[L0G!N (DayZ) 149]

Isn't this what backpacks are for? we are already barely able to carry anything. Plus barney is right, even if he didn't have to add the sarcasm, zombies are just a hair slower than us right now if we get slowed down at all trying to run away from them will be in vain.

Well the 'idea' is to have the movement penalty count from a certain 'authentic weight'-point onwards, it's not that a having a can of beans in your inventory will mean you can no longer outrun infected (for a certain amount of time atleast). But if you stash your inventory & backpack full with 20liter Jerrycan's then yes, you won't be able to outrun infected. But the sollution is easy, don't run around with that much, either run them one by one, OR, have a friend cover you...

In essence it should 'punish' people that have surpassed the 'scavenge' part of the game, and are busy thriving, by putting a weight limit on the stuff they can drag around you force them to make choices, making the game more interesting, AND/OR, if you decide to just run slower, you will have to deal with Infected in some other way (shoot/axe/stab/punch/w.e - them). See a big part of staying alive at some point is to carry enough stuff around so you won't have to run into infected, but why not put a 'rule-set' on that that says: sure you can do so, 'but', if you run into infected now you won't be able to outrun them anymore ... choice then is to travel light so you don't suffer a speedpenalty, which could then mean you have to get into contact with infected more, in order to survive...

[That Guy (DayZ) 46]

Yeah but the drawback for carrying 4 jerry cans is already in place, you wont be able to carry anything else, IE: an extra weapon, extra ammo, food, drinks, and other misc supplies. so if your method was put in not only do I have none of the survival and combat essentials, i'm also slower then the infected.

[L0G!N (DayZ) 149]

@That Guy, yeah isn't that great! ... but in all honesty though, a jerrycan takes up 3 slots, so that makes 12 slots total for 4, if you have a backpack of any kind you can take atleast 2 things in your starter pack (2x 3 = 6 + 2 = 8 slots) and have 6 items in your inventory (2x3 = 6 + 6 = 12) ... so you are not entirely right ;) ... and any bigger backpack would obviously increase the amount of extra stuff you could take along... but like IRL you won't be going anywhere fast, with over 90kg strapped to your body

[Daerk 8]

Must state I'm ALL for this being implemented.

-- Daerk