SUGGESTION: Character Development (Backstory and Talent/Skill System)

[L0G!N (DayZ) 149]

@OW22, would you be so kind to add some of that post to the 'learning by doing thread', be much appreciated...

[petward 6]

No no no no no no no. I respect your ideals, but this is definitely NOT the direction that this game needs to take. Maybe crafting, but not a skill-based crafting system; Simply a material crafting system. This game I wouldn't say is more casual MMO, but it surely isn't fit or any skill-based game-play what-so-ever. In fact any skill-based system will probably make me leave, and from what I know, a large portion of the player-base.

EDIT:

The thing about this game that makes it popular, and what will keep it's current player-base, is because, for the most part, a new player and a veteran player are exactly the same minus raw experience. A new player can get in, kill zombies, have fun, but will surely - but not always - be worse than the veteran players; They can get as good as them, and it does not take skill-grinding, but just practice and gear (with you get pretty quickly with some patience). If you add skills, the veteran players that do stay will own a monopoly on the server because they can do everything better than the new guy under ever circumstance.

In my case, I joined DayZ, had my 30min of, "Holy shit, zombies everywhere! Darkness! I CAN'T SEE SHIT!?". But I'm a fast learner, and I was soon in the league of the "Big Bad" players. (Not to mention rolling with a large group). If skills were in place, then I would have had to invested more time in grinding, than actually playing a "fast-ish-paced" survival game.

...

From the main article itself (I'm dumb and can't operate the quote system apparently...):

Before I move on their are a few things I used to restrict how these systems would work:

• Attributes such as health and damage were not to be tampered with whatsoever. This would ruin both the balance of players that lived for ever and "noobs". How the hell would you magically increase the damage you did with a gun anyway? Realism, bitch. (Prime Directive 2)
  
• Realism, immersion, and harshness has been kept in mind. That is to say you won't be seeing increased damage for guns (That's fucking right, I used the same example twice. U Mad?)
  
• The tight-rope balance between the veteran survivors and beginners has been held almost paramount as that must be maintained for a perfect world to develop. Veteran Survivors will get bonuses for being badass, but Beginners will still be able to kill them like they were beginners. (I know it doesn't make sense yet. Patience...)
  

Do I even need to elaborate on this one?

I really do not like being rude, but you guys are not making it very easy. If your going to try and add something to the discussion PLEASE make sure you read the entirety of the article before passing judgement or critiquing. It's starting to make the ugly rumors I've heard about these forums true...

Either way thanks for at least giving somewhat of a detailed response. Even if it did only lead to some clarification.

Edited July 14, 2012 by Petward

[OW22 21]

@OW22, would you be so kind to add some of that post to the 'learning by doing thread', be much appreciated...

What do you mean by that, exactly? I'm not quite sure, sorry.

[petward 6]

I was on a suggestion thread, and after 2 days, I think we came up with something good. Well it was more like constructive and destructive arguments bashing eachother until they produced a weird lovechild. So here it is:

Skills are grouped into 2 simple categories:

Combat Skills

Practical Skills

Skills go up by using them more. Things like reloading increases reload time, and only reloading increases reload time, meaning shooting does not increase reload time. Simple as that.

Combat skills include:

Pistols- Pistols and guff, shoot and reload for profit in increased accuracy and reload time. *Specific to guns*.

Long Guns- Rifles, shotguns, and the like. Shoot and reload for profit in increased accuracy in reload time. **.

Snipers- All snipers. Shoot, hold breath, and reload for profit in reload time, accuracy, and steadier aim. **.

Melee weapons- More usage gets faster swing, and needs to actually hit to "level up", and is per tool.

Stealth- When close to players or zombies and remain undetected, stealth goes up, and you can move better crouching or prone.

Running- Just 'effing bolt. You get faster at running and valuting, that's it.

Practical skills include:

Repair- Break car parts less often for better vehicle management. If you think you'll find more fuel in Jerry Cans just go away.

Medicine- After using the bloodpack enough you finally didn't spill most of it like a 4 year-old's juice. Nice. Starts at +800 until full.

Pilot- This is just a proclaimed skill. Just shows how much you've flown, and earns no bonuses.

Hunting- Debatably a combat skill, you finally know enough to know what you can and can't eat. You get more meat from animals.

Doing this gives no one those unrealistic bonuses of somehow magically gaining more space in a pack, having more blood, or some other strange and ridiculous bonus. Use the skill, and it goes up. Survive longer, and get better. Die, and lose all your skills. So don't die.

That's it, I hope you like it!

Some actual suggestion/critiquing! I knew there weren't only 2/3 actual helpful people on this forum!You can essentially read the above post without even reading the rest of this, but I will elaborate anyway. I dislike the idea of giving the veteran players boosts to base stats that would make them stronger or harder to kill. I believe that should revolve around the premise of Items. Not skills you can somewhat grind up. That is essentially the reason for how obscure some of the stat boosts are, even if they sometimes don't make sense (I tried my best :( ), I want to keep the skill system powerful enough so that you can subtly SOMETIMES notice that zombies are much easier to sneak by or that you can run slightly faster for longer. What I DO NOT WANT is people checking their "skill screen" (I DO NOT support a skill interface BTW) to see how far they are in thier Hunting skill line. It should fit absolutely seamlessly into the DayZ world and it's mechanics while sticking with the main idea of the mod.

[OW22 21]

Some actual suggestion/critiquing! I knew there weren't only 2/3 actual helpful people on this forum!You can essentially read the above post without even reading the rest of this, but I will elaborate anyway. I dislike the idea of giving the veteran players boosts to base stats that would make them stronger or harder to kill. I believe that should revolve around the premise of Items. Not skills you can somewhat grind up. That is essentially the reason for how obscure some of the stat boosts are, even if they sometimes don't make sense (I tried my best :( ), I want to keep the skill system powerful enough so that you can subtly SOMETIMES notice that zombies are much easier to sneak by or that you can run slightly faster for longer. What I DO NOT WANT is people checking their "skill screen" (I DO NOT support a skill interface BTW) to see how far they are in thier Hunting skill line. It should fit absolutely seamlessly into the DayZ world and it's mechanics while sticking with the main idea of the mod.

Oh, nononnononono.... there are no skill screens, you silly goose.... It just goes up and you really don't know where you are in the whole thing, you just get better. Well, you'd know by how much blood you'd restore in that area but....

Are you saying I'm trying to give vets bonuses or making them harder to kill? I'm not. They can just use weapons better, (if they've used that particular one a while) but can't do more damage or take more a hit. A few shots from a Makarov is just as good as a few shots from their AK. Yeah, they GIVE more blood from using bloodpacks (doesn't matter for animal meat) but that's out of combat and isn't necessarily making them harder to kill.

If you want me to explain the stat boosts better, I'd be glad to, as you say they're obscure (assuming that's towards me).

[petward 6]

Oh, nononnononono.... there are no skill screens, you silly goose.... It just goes up and you really don't know where you are in the whole thing, you just get better. Well, you'd know by how much blood you'd restore in that area but....

Are you saying I'm trying to give vets bonuses or making them harder to kill? I'm not. They can just use weapons better, (if they've used that particular one a while) but can't do more damage or take more a hit. A few shots from a Makarov is just as good as a few shots from their AK. Yeah, they GIVE more blood from using bloodpacks (doesn't matter for animal meat) but that's out of combat and isn't necessarily making them harder to kill.

If you want me to explain the stat boosts better, I'd be glad to, as you say they're obscure (assuming that's towards me).

Oh sorry about that. After reading it again I realized I must have had gone insane for a second while I was reading it the first time.The mention of skill screens was really only me rambling, not an accusation of any sort... That is to say the obscure comment was pointed at myself and not you, also in part due to my incessant rambling. However, the reload time mechanic is teetering on the edge of becoming unbalancing in terms of veteran's and survivors. I also think that the reload skill itself is almost totally useless (Keep in mind that this is going off of my own experiences so this piece of advice should be taken with a pinch of salt.). In any situation, infected or bandit fights almost never have me reloading a clip during the actual fight. I think it may have happened once in a house when I was funneling zombles in, but that is it. As critical as I'm being I actually like the subtly of the increase itself. I believe it is insignificant enough to be a nice stat to increase, but it may actually not be significant enough considering the other stats you could use (Weapon maintenance comes to mind.)

[Str8beastin408 0]

Just no, this is not an MMORPG, this is a survival game. Anything I see related to classes and other shit pisses me the fuck off -1

[petward 6]

Just no, this is not an MMORPG, this is a survival game. Anything I see related to classes and other shit pisses me the fuck off -1

At this point I get a sense of sadistic pleasure when I piss someone off with a simple suggestion. Shows it has weight.

I understand the perceived implications when I say talent/skill system. It is a VERY general topic. When most any player thinks of a skill/talent system the MMORPG style immediately pops into thier head. This is quite understandable as it is a huge, almost overwhelming, feature in those types of games. DayZ is not, to that extent, an MMORPG and adding a talent system like what you find in games like WoW or Guild Wars 2 would not mesh with the rest of the formula. DayZ is not WoW and it shouldn't be treated like it, I understand that. That is why the system is NOTHING like any MMORPG's, or even general RPG's, I have ever played (I know, I'm so unique in my creativity.). The only comparable game I can find is the Skyrim system at it's base. However, even then the system I proposed is a lot more simple and subtle than it's. I'm fact, I purposefully made it so that it had VERY LITTLE IMPACT to the current game mechanics. Hell, the most profound change is the 40% decrease in sound/sight. If your going to try and reply, please make sure you actually read the entirety of the article and it's following replies...

You probably won't be coming back to read that (I can't say you will be missed.), but hopefully that will shed some light on what little you got from the article itself and not just the title.

Edited July 14, 2012 by Petward

[OW22 21]

Oh sorry about that. After reading it again I realized I must have had gone insane for a second while I was reading it the first time.The mention of skill screens was really only me rambling, not an accusation of any sort... That is to say the obscure comment was pointed at myself and not you, also in part due to my incessant rambling. However, the reload time mechanic is teetering on the edge of becoming unbalancing in terms of veteran's and survivors. I also think that the reload skill itself is almost totally useless (Keep in mind that this is going off of my own experiences so this piece of advice should be taken with a pinch of salt.). In any situation, infected or bandit fights almost never have me reloading a clip during the actual fight. I think it may have happened once in a house when I was funneling zombles in, but that is it. As critical as I'm being I actually like the subtly of the increase itself. I believe it is insignificant enough to be a nice stat to increase, but it may actually not be significant enough considering the other stats you could use (Weapon maintenance comes to mind.)

I see. I really don't care if reloading is in or not, though some people might complain, so you could experiment. Weapon maintenance and durability will either be close to release or in the standalone, so that'll be fun, and if skills are included, hopefully vehicle repair and weapon repair are separate.

[simonbenchapongwimon_7@hotmail.com 25]

As it stands, players all have equal rights in this game, no matter the playstyle, and that should never be compromised under any circumstances. If someone wants to kill another player, it shouldn't be because he wants another skill point in murder; it's because he had the right to, for whatever needs i.e food, drink, medical supplies, weaponry, or if he just felt like it.

Same goes for a player who wants to team up with someone else, it shouldn't be because they want points in companionship, it should be because they feel their chances of survival are higher together.

Giving any player any bonus of any kind, even if it doesn't increase damage done or health, is still a strong advantage over other players not just in the fact that they can kill, but loot rights also. For example:

-Player 1 spots a building filled with loot, but is surrounded by zombies and walks on.

-Player 2 enters building filled with loot unscathed, and is able to because of said perks (Decreased Aggro/Sight/Sound etc)

It's a bit rough, but you get my idea. Obviously balance is a huge issue. - But I digress, this suggestion is something this game doesn't need. I feel that players are the ones that need to judge encounters with other players, not a system that will reward or punish people for playing differently. I know there are loads of players out there that want to kill each other, literally foaming at the mouth crazy players. Then there are players who want to lone wolf it and avoid everything and everyone and only take what's needed to survive i.e food, water and & medicine. Then there are players that want to meet up and play together, split the risk between them etc. - I feel a system like this will push players towards playing all roles, even if it's not what they want to do, just because of said perks, which I believe is wrong.

Sorry for the long post.

[OW22 21]

As it stands, players all have equal rights in this game, no matter the playstyle, and that should never be compromised under any circumstances. If someone wants to kill another player, it shouldn't be because he wants another skill point in murder; it's because he had the right to, for whatever needs i.e food, drink, medical supplies, weaponry, or if he just felt like it.

Same goes for a player who wants to team up with someone else, it shouldn't be because they want points in companionship, it should be because they feel their chances of survival are higher together.

Giving any player any bonus of any kind, even if it doesn't increase damage done or health, is still a strong advantage over other players not just in the fact that they can kill, but loot rights also. For example:

-Player 1 spots a building filled with loot, but is surrounded by zombies and walks on.

-Player 2 enters building filled with loot unscathed, and is able to because of said perks (Decreased Aggro/Sight/Sound etc)

It's a bit rough, but you get my idea. Obviously balance is a huge issue. - But I digress, this suggestion is something this game doesn't need. I feel that players are the ones that need to judge encounters with other players, not a system that will reward or punish people for playing differently. I know there are loads of players out there that want to kill each other, literally foaming at the mouth crazy players. Then there are players who want to lone wolf it and avoid everything and everyone and only take what's needed to survive i.e food, water and & medicine. Then there are players that want to meet up and play together, split the risk between them etc. - I feel a system like this will push players towards playing all roles, even if it's not what they want to do, just because of said perks, which I believe is wrong.

Sorry for the long post.

Ok, I want to say murder and companionship are bad skill ideas (as you proved in your post) but I also want to say something else.

Here is the main idea: People want to balance out what people can do. Not everyone can repair vehicles, ride in a helicopter, and operate guns with absolute ease. Fix it. That's all.

I might have missed some points, so add some if you like. Right now, I don't see anything I missed, but I'm not thinking that hard. Just wanting to tell people that what people suggest here is not THE way, just trying to get some form as to how this would all work, because if it did, I bet a LOT of people would like it.

[petward 6]

Not to sound condescending, but I don't think your understanding something. The point is not to appease the people whining about there being too many Bandits. The point is to simply make it so that there is both an incentive to focus on murdering people and an incentive to group up and be friendly. I may have been to focused on rectifying this one thing, but in response to your posts that is really all this is solving. This isn't a skill/talent tree for the sake of having one in the game. This isn't to make it so that you have some sort of character progression. This is simply a way to fix the complaint that Bandit's/Survivors are not balanced.

Unfortunatley, for the most part, I agree with most of what you said. I'm gonna go off track here for a sec. The STALKER series is one of my all time favorite gaming series. Hell, it is almost on the same level as fallout 3 in terms of my favorite game of all time (And that's pretty high...). The thing that made it almost better than the Fallout series was the exclusion of a skill system/talent system. I liked the realism it entailed. I liked relying on the gear I found. To tie this in DayZ is almost a carbon copy of the game play mechanics... minus radiation and anomalies, but you get my point. I would love to keep the non-skill system that is currently implemented. However, I also want to see there be more of an incentive to be a survivor to make it balanced with the perks the Bandit gets. My realistic mind tells me that this is essentially not possible as it is always easier to be evil than it is to be good, an that crosses over into real life as well.

The best way to make this "realistic" in DayZ is to make it so that you have a group role (Kind of fundamentally like the system you posted.). Unfortunatley this will only make the problem worse. Rocket once posted that the reason "Banditery" is becoming so effective is because the Bandits are teaming up. Adding group functions will only serve to turn the game from a free-for-all to a literal team-death-machine.

The system I proposed is, in my opinion, the only way to "fix" this problem without turning it into a disaster. Making it so that you gain MINIMAL( So that they have little impact on the game.)perks for simply playing the game. You assume that the skill system would turn this into a skill based game. What I have in mind is simply not that. When the most "overpowered" skill you could possibly get only makes you 40% less of a target for zombies When you are already trying to stealth past them would certainly not make that the focus of the game. Most of the "perks" of these skill lines incredibly minimal. Not only that but you can't even choose what you progress in! If you want to become a medic you do not need to spend your points in a stupid talent tree. All you have to do is simply play like a medic. If your worried about veterans becoming too good then you are mistaken. I made sure that any veteran player can easily be killed by a newbie just as easily as before. The hardcore, tense PvP element is still there. Hell, the only time the skills even step into that territory is through the dog upgrades (Which I believe are the worst of the skill lines I proposed...).

Phew! Alright. My point is this skill system is supposed to only affect the game in a far background sense. You will never find yourself killing a survivor for the skill point in your Predation skill. You will still be doing it to be a douchebag or for the items... At least if your intelligent. Obviously the idea of gaining even the smallest bit of reward for doing something will blind some of the more... inept? players. I hope I didn't come across as heavily defensive cause that is certainly how it look like. If you take anything away from this post it is that I'm merely trying to fix the Bandit/Survivor balance efficiently and subtly. Not for the sake of making a skill system.

I really should just update the main post so that I don't have to keep referring back to replies to other people's comments... Anyway, I feel this should suffice for an explanation. As far as the situation you used as an example I am not proposing the skills I proposed. They are merely a way for showing how the system would work. You could replace one of the skills with this and still explain it:

1. Shitting: Player gains 1 point per each shit made in-game. This line will increase ease of flow by 1% and pain/fear by 1%(maybe .5%). Maxed will have +20% ease of flow and -20%(maybe -10%) pain/fear.
   

The skills I listed before don't really mean anything. Well... that a lie. I do believe that those would be a good start in thinking of the real skills. You assume that the challenge and fun of sneaking into buildings will be annihilated once you get the full perks. Keep in mind the most you can get for sound/sight is 40%. That's it. 40% and that's only when you are crouching/prone. I don't know about you, but making the trip into the hospital for the millionth time after surviving for 5 days with a little more assurance that I can get in would not break the game/ make it unbalanced/ make it not fun.

You point out that this would push people into pre-determined "roles". Not to be rude, but did you read how you gain skill points? You gain them through doing actions. Just like if I fix a car in real life. I';m usually going to be a little more proficient with it when I've done it 5 times after that. Not only is it realistic, but it absolutely, in no way supports classes or roles. That is the one thing I didn't want to even remotely suggest. If you want to lone wolf it you can still do that. You still get bonuses from other things that people who are grouping up may not. Keep in mind there is a cap in the system so that you cannot max out everything.

Hope this clarifies things and thank you for the feedback ;).

[petward 6]

Ok, I want to say murder and companionship are bad skill ideas (as you proved in your post) but I also want to say something else.

Here is the main idea: People want to balance out what people can do. Not everyone can repair vehicles, ride in a helicopter, and operate guns with absolute ease. Fix it. That's all.

I might have missed some points, so add some if you like. Right now, I don't see anything I missed, but I'm not thinking that hard. Just wanting to tell people that what people suggest here is not THE way, just trying to get some form as to how this would all work, because if it did, I bet a LOT of people would like it.

Yeah... Like I said before I did not spend hours upon hours refining what I posted (As far as the skills go.). It was mostly to give a general idea fo what it may look like and to SHOW THE SYSTEM ITSELF. However, I do believe the Bandit/Survivor skill that grants a similar bonus needs to be implemented if something like what I proposed was to be used as the whole point of this was to fix the balancing issues between the two.

As always thank you for being reasonable and for your feedback!

Edited July 14, 2012 by Petward

[takfar@gmail.com 24]

Hey Petward!

I've included suggestions on this same issue on one of my own brainstorming threads. Have a look and ssay what you think!

http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/32851-brainstorming-new-features-part-1-character-evolution/

[petward 6]

Updated the original post to make intentions and goals clearer to those that don't read between the lines so well.

[takfar@gmail.com 24]

Hey Petward. I've read your thread, and I see it differs from mine in some basic points:

- I didn't want to mess around with the bandit/survivor system. I see some merits to your suggestions, but I don't think player-killing or surviving should direct affect ingame skills (pain/fear or whatever). In my opinion, it should just affect the recognition of survivors or bandits, in that: the longer you survive, the easier it'll be for you to "feel" whether a player is a survivor or a bandit. For someone fully experienced, he should be able to spot someone else's bad intentions (or rather, dark past) from afar. This would make "bandit-hunting" easier, making the late game a more fun conflict between bandits (who kill and loot anyone) and bandit-hunters (who only kill someone who's already killed a survivor before)

- I personally think loot-leveling should take a step back to skill-leveling. Loot is transferable from character to character, so you can just go there after dying and pick it up, or have some friends bring it to you, and you're good to go. If that character was alive for long and developing skills, tho, you'd feel more attached to him. Makes permadeath even harsher, and makes the storytelling and emotional range of the game approach that of our favorite zombie stories, rather than just being random faceless military men duking it out in the wasteland.

[petward 6]

I didn't want to mess around with the bandit/survivor system. I see some merits to your suggestions, but I don't think player-killing or surviving should direct affect ingame skills (pain/fear or whatever). In my opinion, it should just affect the recognition of survivors or bandits, in that: the longer you survive, the easier it'll be for you to "feel" whether a player is a survivor or a bandit. For someone fully experienced, he should be able to spot someone else's bad intentions (or rather, dark past) from afar. This would make "bandit-hunting" easier, making the late game a more fun conflict between bandits (who kill and loot anyone) and bandit-hunters (who only kill someone who's already killed a survivor before)

This has been suggested A LOT. However, I can never see ti being implemented like this for the same reason bandit skin's were taken out.

It's un-realistic.

You can't know someone's past/history by simply looking at them. I don't care how many acid tablets you take. It's impossible. Not only that, but there is the question of how in Rocket's name you would be able to implement that differentiation between Murder and Self-defense. I know almost nothing about programming and stuff, but I am positive that something like that is almost impossible. Please kick me in the balls if I'm wrong.

In a perfect world where a game engine COULD tell the difference then that would obviously be the best way to add skill points (or something else) to the Survivor/Bandit trees. Unfortunatley our world is far from perfect.

- I personally think loot-leveling should take a step back to skill-leveling. Loot is transferable from character to character, so you can just go there after dying and pick it up, or have some friends bring it to you, and you're good to go. If that character was alive for long and developing skills, tho, you'd feel more attached to him. Makes permadeath even harsher, and makes the storytelling and emotional range of the game approach that of our favorite zombie stories, rather than just being random faceless military men duking it out in the wasteland.

I'm going to be honest here, I personally love the idea of my character revolving around gear and loot. Ever since games like STALKER I have been in love with the realism it entailed and the different, but comparable depths it added to the game. I like the idea of not having to worry about my cooking level or woodcutting (Runescape reference...). I love having to worry about what's in my bag and how I should be hoarding and using it sparingly. It made me feel immersed in the world.

Now I get to my point. Having to worry about what you have in your bag and on-hand is a realistic worry. Having to worry about a invisible skill that you have to is not. That is not to say that never happens. When your in a zombie apocalypse you are going to be worrying about what you have to survive rather than the skills you can work up to use those items more effectively. However, it can be a secondary worry and be completely realistic. Personally, I believe that the fact that it is Gear-Based make me feel like I AM the character. Not playing as one. If the game suddenly turned stat focused it would change my perspective. Because my mind works the way it does I would no longer feel like my character. I would be worried about working up my skills in a very... "gamey" way.

Not only that, but Rocket himself has said many times before that he wants the mod/game to stay Item Based.

I know it sounds incredibly hypocritical considering what I have posted before, but that is why my system is the way it is. Provide balance and immersion while staying in the back of the players head/in the background.

Phew... Thank you for the feedback and sorry if I sounded too critical.

[OW22 21]

This has been suggested A LOT. However, I can never see ti being implemented like this for the same reason bandit skin's were taken out.

It's un-realistic.

You can't know someone's past/history by simply looking at them. I don't care how many acid tablets you take. It's impossible. Not only that, but there is the question of how in Rocket's name you would be able to implement that differentiation between Murder and Self-defense. I know almost nothing about programming and stuff, but I am positive that something like that is almost impossible. Please kick me in the balls if I'm wrong.

In a perfect world where a game engine COULD tell the difference then that would obviously be the best way to add skill points (or something else) to the Survivor/Bandit trees. Unfortunatley our world is far from perfect.

Only the part of your post I'm replying to is quoted.

So you say you can't define between self-defense and murder? Well, let's look at it like this:

BF3 has a system of suppression. If a player shoots near you, your screen will go blurry and all that. That's part of it. Also, most FPS's have avenger features too. When a player just killed someone on your team, you get points for killing them. Now let's look at the fact that rocket said in one of his interviews for the solution to alt+f4'ing. Talking about the game detecting you logging in or logging out often, and if those logs were near people who fired guns.

Combining Battlefield 3's suppression system in bullet detection around the player, then adding a hit factor too, makes it so that if bullets are fired near or around you, it would count as self defense. So if you get fired at, the game detects the other player as attacking. If you get hit, same thing. If that player wins, it's murder. If you win, it's self-defense.

The problem is you need the resources.

Rocket is getting funding offers from all over the place, and he won't tell us what will or won't be in the game so we won't be disappointed, so chances are that if he does decide to use the money for that, we'll see it later. All it would take is a bit of innovation, and we have seen a lot of that in this game. Of course, it would have to be tested, but I'm sure it would have a good chance of working out.

The thing is that it doesn't really matter. Things are different for all sorts of people. Bandits may show no evidence of their deeds on their faces. What rocket talks about as blood on your hands when looting a fresh body is where it counts.

I like the idea of not having your murder count go up for self-defense, but making effects afterwards are just a waste of time.

As for all the psychological stuff, some people don't experience this. Maybe from their outlook on life, their values, or they just don't have time to think about it in all the chaos. Sure, it might catch up with them, but that's for you to feel, not experience through a screen.

Face it, when you think about the next meal on par with murdering someone for a can of beans, you don't have time for that. You have to carry on, and show no weakness.

Edited July 15, 2012 by OW22

[petward 6]

BF3 has a system of suppression. If a player shoots near you, your screen will go blurry and all that. That's part of it. Also, most FPS's have avenger features too. When a player just killed someone on your team, you get points for killing them. Now let's look at the fact that rocket said in one of his interviews for the solution to alt+f4'ing. Talking about the game detecting you logging in or logging out often, and if those logs were near people who fired guns.

Combining Battlefield 3's suppression system in bullet detection around the player, then adding a hit factor too, makes it so that if bullets are fired near or around you, it would count as self defense. So if you get fired at, the game detects the other player as attacking. If you get hit, same thing. If that player wins, it's murder. If you win, it's self-defense.

Ha, the sad thing is I played BF3 for a while and never noticed that. Regardless, that is very interesting. Definitely something to look at to implementing. Only problem would be the "grouping/party" bit. I for one am against any type of... official party system in DayZ. Like adding people through a UI or whatnot. It would have to be only on you. This would make things pretty fiddly.

The thing is that it doesn't really matter. Things are different for all sorts of people. Bandits may show no evidence of their deeds on their faces. What rocket talks about as blood on your hands when looting a fresh body is where it counts.

Combine that with the system up above and you may have a winner. I like where this discussion is leading :).

Edited July 15, 2012 by Petward

[OW22 21]

Ha, the sad thing is I played BF3 for a while and never noticed that. Regardless, that is very interesting. Definitely something to look at to implementing. Only problem would be the "grouping/party" bit. I for one am against any type of... official party system in DayZ. Like adding people through a UI or whatnot. It would have to be only on you. This would make things pretty fiddly.

Combine that with the system up above and you may have a winner. I like where this discussion is leading :).

I don't know if I accidently said anything about adding people with a UI or anything, but I didn't mean to. If you got it from the mention of avenger mechanics, that was just to throw out there because I was thinking, "Well what if someone was murdered right next to you?" but really didn't think it was ethical. Hoped someone might find a better answer with that.

Where are you going with groups? Like say a murderer killed your buddy so you killed him so he couldn't get a shot on you? Maybe that's where the avenger system comes in, but the problem is that the game wouldn't know it was your pal, and if it did you would need a UI to add him and all that?

Say you had something like a friendship bracelet? Dogtags, engravings, symbols, whatever? Basically like the family crest but for a clan, more permanent and unique than chemlights. Say you found blank dogtags and you had a knife and could engrave them? You fill in the slots say maybe a clan/guild name, (these could be left empty depending on player preference) then on one end is the clan/guild tag that links up to others like it, and in the middle there is the name which can be edited to be "codenames" and such. Then when you look at them your character recognizes them. Or maybe the original crest is in order, so you just see they are a fellow clanmate, and not know who they are. Maybe that should be thought about.

All I know is that when you can customize your character more like facial features, things will be really cool.

Edited July 15, 2012 by OW22

[petward 6]

Say you had something like a friendship bracelet? Dogtags, engravings, symbols, whatever? Basically like the family crest but for a clan, more permanent and unique than chemlights. Say you found blank dogtags and you had a knife and could engrave them? You fill in the slots say maybe a clan/guild name, (these could be left empty depending on player preference) then on one end is the clan/guild tag that links up to others like it, and in the middle there is the name which can be edited to be "codenames" and such. Then when you look at them your character recognizes them. Or maybe the original crest is in order, so you just see they are a fellow clanmate, and not know who they are. Maybe that should be thought about.

That would certainly be realistic. Definitely a good suggestion. However, it is not necessarily the way it's implemented that I'm most worried about. What worries me the most with this is the whole concept of it. I believe the very "unofficial" way that grouping is implemented in DayZ now is exciting, authentic, and fun. Keep in mind this is assuming your meeting someone in game who you become "friends" with (We all know how that turns out...). When you add any sort of "official" party system it makes it so that you have their username. This sounds very trivial, but it ruins the... mystery behind the person.

Ok, going to stop that abruptly because I've had somewhat of a stroke of brilliance. Or maybe I just stopped being stupid. Anyway, assuming the "official buddies" thing was an item. Not a UI thing or something. It does not save to profile or anything. Now what if, like all the rest of your items, it was removed once you died. All information gone from that person and blah, blah, blah. Maybe make it a pseudo item so that it cannot be saved in tents and shit. Now this would make him shooting you in the back still a very real danger.

I don't know, I feel like this post is stupid and I'm just being very tired at the moment...

[OW22 21]

That would certainly be realistic. Definitely a good suggestion. However, it is not necessarily the way it's implemented that I'm most worried about. What worries me the most with this is the whole concept of it. I believe the very "unofficial" way that grouping is implemented in DayZ now is exciting, authentic, and fun. Keep in mind this is assuming your meeting someone in game who you become "friends" with (We all know how that turns out...). When you add any sort of "official" party system it makes it so that you have their username. This sounds very trivial, but it ruins the... mystery behind the person.

Ok, going to stop that abruptly because I've had somewhat of a stroke of brilliance. Or maybe I just stopped being stupid. Anyway, assuming the "official buddies" thing was an item. Not a UI thing or something. It does not save to profile or anything. Now what if, like all the rest of your items, it was removed once you died. All information gone from that person and blah, blah, blah. Maybe make it a pseudo item so that it cannot be saved in tents and shit. Now this would make him shooting you in the back still a very real danger.

I don't know, I feel like this post is stupid and I'm just being very tired at the moment...

Ok, let me think up with my brain juices for a moment.

Dogtags would be useful either way. A new option on a player body of "check dogtags" would be nice, so you could see who died and if it was one of you, or an enemy clan, ect. it doesn't necessarily have to display the name when the cursor is over it.

As for some symbol of unity.... The pack comes to mind. The pack changes only when a new one is found, and is on a big part of you. You can change clothes and all that, and not all clothes have the same parts.

Of course ghille suits don't have visible packs, but I like that being a disadvantage when wearing one.

But how can we edit the pack? What makes sense?

What about your blood? Think about it, it's a big thing in the game. It's your life.

Rocket is talking about managing your clan on the site and all that stuff soon, so why not have a section where you can edit your mark?

In-game, you simply go up to a backpack on someone's back, or on the ground, and choose "mark backpack". Your backpack is now marked with a blood design. Of course, there should be a few select shapes and letters you can use for this, to avoid exploitation in the immature and repulsive manner, to speak in overly large vocabulary.

Thoughts?

[petward 6]

Ok, let me think up with my brain juices for a moment.

Dogtags would be useful either way. A new option on a player body of "check dogtags" would be nice, so you could see who died and if it was one of you, or an enemy clan, ect. it doesn't necessarily have to display the name when the cursor is over it.

As for some symbol of unity.... The pack comes to mind. The pack changes only when a new one is found, and is on a big part of you. You can change clothes and all that, and not all clothes have the same parts.

Of course ghille suits don't have visible packs, but I like that being a disadvantage when wearing one.

But how can we edit the pack? What makes sense?

What about your blood? Think about it, it's a big thing in the game. It's your life.

Rocket is talking about managing your clan on the site and all that stuff soon, so why not have a section where you can edit your mark?

In-game, you simply go up to a backpack on someone's back, or on the ground, and choose "mark backpack". Your backpack is now marked with a blood design. Of course, there should be a few select shapes and letters you can use for this, to avoid exploitation in the immature and repulsive manner, to speak in overly large vocabulary.

Thoughts?

Not that I don't love the theorycrafting on the subject, I just feel like this is leading the discussion a bit off track. HIGHLY recommend making this idea a thread of it's own instead of burying it under a completely different suggestion.

[Jack Dant 158]

I like some of your ideas, but some of them feel a bit gamey.

I think most of the room for "skills" can come from what we would call "training".

While DayZ has close to no backstory, I think it's safe to assume our characters are civilian survivors, not military.

So, for instance, they shouldn't be as good with guns as they are. A civilian who is not very familiar with guns and picks up one won't be able to aim steadily. When he shoots, the recoil will most likely surprise him.

The game could realistically increase aim shaking and recoil for new spawns. Then as you fire more shots and kill more people/zombies/animals, your character becomes more familiar with the gun and he can be as effective as we currently are.

There are other examples, but I think they should mostly related to new spawns doing things badly, then getting better at it. Wasting blood on transfusions, fuel when using jerry cans, etc.

Ideally we could get some physical training done, but since our characters never really get tired, it's not easy.

[petward 6]

I like some of your ideas, but some of them feel a bit gamey.

I think most of the room for "skills" can come from what we would call "training".

While DayZ has close to no backstory, I think it's safe to assume our characters are civilian survivors, not military.

So, for instance, they shouldn't be as good with guns as they are. A civilian who is not very familiar with guns and picks up one won't be able to aim steadily. When he shoots, the recoil will most likely surprise him.

The game could realistically increase aim shaking and recoil for new spawns. Then as you fire more shots and kill more people/zombies/animals, your character becomes more familiar with the gun and he can be as effective as we currently are.

There are other examples, but I think they should mostly related to new spawns doing things badly, then getting better at it. Wasting blood on transfusions, fuel when using jerry cans, etc.

Ideally we could get some physical training done, but since our characters never really get tired, it's not easy.

I agree, keep in mind that the skills are mostly just to show off how the system would work in terms of progression with a few general ideas sprinkled here and there. Any stat system will fell gamey. Hell, the new addition of the visibility counter and the whole debug monitor feels gamey. So, in short I agree.

Training is also a viable option, but I do think that when you do things constantly and enough times you should get better at doing said thing. That is just how real-life works and I see no reason why it shouldn't be implemented as well if they also did training.

I'm actually glad you mentioned the backstory as I am writing another thread/suggestion about the very topic :).

As for making the starting survivors worse at things I agree. However, these disadvantages should be absolutely minimal. See my list of intentions for reasons why.

Anyway, thank you for your feedback. One post at a time we can create a better DayZ. :End Inspirational Message: