If you are 'good' at something... professions & teamwork

[bazbake 456]

It's not so much that solo players would be punished and team players would be rewarded. It's more that the current system for creating teams relies exclusively on forums and metagaming. And players are growing increasingly casual about this.

[L0G!N (DayZ) 149]

I'm not a big fan of the pouch idea. It's really good for promoting co-op play, but it is a negative aspect in every category for solo play. You are extremely limited in what you can do by yourself, and a lot of people prefer the "lone-wolf" style play. This would completely alienate that self-sufficiency that some people strive on.

The long wolf has actually been taken into account at every step of this suggestion, but it assumes a certain type of lone wolf, one that focusses on surviving mostly, aka. 4 slots is enough to take the needed survival tools with you: knife, matches, hatched, canteen; and thus you can easily play as a lone wolf, the pouches will increase your abilities even more. And there is nothing saying you can't drop tools in your tent and pick the ones you want for that play session ... find a car? take the tools for fixing it, make sure you pre-cooked meat incase you get hurt, and drink soda ...

Sure it reduces the easy mode lone-wolf play, but it surely doesn't make it impossible, just a bit more challenging to promote teamplay and in some cases reduce KOS behavior ... BTW. I am still somewhat in doubt about the minimum amount of slots on the toolbelt, i am thinking maybe 5 could be more forgiving, so seeing you dislike the restriction, would 5 slots please you enough ?

Edited August 10, 2012 by L0G!N

[The2ndLink 156]

One of the few ideas I really like.

Apart from the programing effort I see no downside once some thinking is gone into balancing.

It would add some interresting variety to DayZ.

[The OCD 10]

The long wolf has actually been taken into account at every step of this suggestion, but it assumes a certain type of lone wolf, one that focusses on surviving mostly, aka. 4 slots is enough to take the needed survival tools with you: knife, matches, hatched, canteen; and thus you can easily play as a lone wolf, the pouches will increase your abilities even more. And there is nothing saying you can't drop tools in your tent and pick the ones you want for that play session ... find a car? take the tools for fixing it, make sure you pre-cooked meat incase you get hurt, and drink soda ...

Sure it reduces the easy mode lone-wolf play, but it surely doesn't make it impossible, just a bit more challenging to promote teamplay and in some cases reduce KOS behavior ... BTW. I am still somewhat in doubt about the minimum amount of slots on the toolbelt, i am thinking maybe 5 could be more forgiving, so seeing you dislike the restriction, would 5 slots please you enough ?

This is a sandbox, play how you want to with the tools you are given. You are forcing a certain style of play for someone who wants to play alone, and that is not the direction Rocket wants this "anti-game" to go.

[L0G!N (DayZ) 149]

One of the few ideas I really like. Apart from the programing effort I see no downside once some thinking is gone into balancing.

tnx, idd love to know what/which kind of pouches you think are unbalanced, i may be able to deal with it in the suggestion so it become even better :)

@OCD, so how doesn't this suggestion do exactly that? aka. play how you want with the room your are given to carry your tools :P ... we could go on like this for a while, i guess you just don't like this suggestion and it's clear to me. But there is nothing i can do to change it so you would like it, because it's based on restricting the amount of tools you can carry and that is done for a couple of reasons that come from the gameplay (hardly incentive to team, Killing on sight). This could be a fairly easy and full freedom fix to atleast try and deal with these 'percieved problems'. And giving people these pouches AND full amount of toolbelt-slots, would in my view be even more rediculous. So your objection is noted, but my suggestion remains as it is ;)

[The OCD 10]

@OCD, so how doesn't this suggestion do exactly that? aka. play how you want with the room your are given to carry your tools :P ...

You said you were creating a "non-class" system, but that is exactly what this system is. You force people to play the "class" based on the Packs they pick up. The worst part is you can't change Packs/gear quickly if you need to or your group decides that you need to; you first have to find the new Packs you want, then drop your current ones, which severely limits your effectiveness until you find all new gear to go in your packs. So you're basically a terrible hybrid class until you find the tools you need AFTER having picked up your new Packs. You can't just pick up and change "classes", because you can't even store the items you need for the next class without crippling yourself.

it's based on restricting the amount of tools you can carry and that is done for a couple of reasons that come from the gameplay (hardly incentive to team, Killing on sight).

This will in no way change the KoS issue if people can play "lone wolf" as easily as you say they can. The reason people KoS is because the reward for not killing them doesn't outweigh the risk of them being alive and potentially being a murderer/bandit. If anything, it would promote more KoS. People looking for hard to find packs would just murder people until they found what they wanted.

This is a terrible way to force co-op play as well; With this system, unless you played together every waking moment with your buds, you would be forced to rely on the "cooks" in the party; The guys carrying matches/wood/hatchet/knife. That's 4 toolbelt slots gone already just to cook food, unless you use the "Knife" and "Hatched" Packs, which is still minimum 2 slots from your main belt gone already. Sure you could split it up, but that makes your team even more susceptible to failure because if even one person isn't there, someone has to change their "class" just to pick up matches or a hatchet for wood or whatever.

This could be a fairly easy and full freedom fix to atleast try and deal with these 'percieved problems'.

This is anything but full freedom; It's extremely limiting the play-style of anyone that doesn't play with a bunch of friends.

I admire your efforts to knock out 2 pretty big issues with one suggestion, but this is not a long-term fix for either issue. It just isn't practical in the scope of a survival environment, since you're literally having to rely on a minimum of 4 other people to make sure all of your bases are covered.

[L0G!N (DayZ) 149]

You said you were creating a "non-class" system, but that is exactly what this system is. You force people to play the "class" based on the Packs they pick up. The worst part is you can't change Packs/gear quickly if you need to or your group decides that you need to; you first have to find the new Packs you want, then drop your current ones, which severely limits your effectiveness until you find all new gear to go in your packs. So you're basically a terrible hybrid class until you find the tools you need AFTER having picked up your new Packs. You can't just pick up and change "classes", because you can't even store the items you need for the next class without crippling yourself.

In part this depends on how commen certain packs are, and otherwise i think this is a weak argument, because you can't use a G17 untill you find one and if you do you have to drop your makarov, and you can't change these weapons if you group needs you too. So it's exactly within the convines of the game. And yes you will have to make choices and you can't be everything at the same time, that's the whole idea behind the suggestion.

This will in no way change the KoS issue if people can play "lone wolf" as easily as you say they can. The reason people KoS is because the reward for not killing them doesn't outweigh the risk of them being alive and potentially being a murderer/bandit. If anything, it would promote more KoS. People looking for hard to find packs would just murder people until they found what they wanted.

yes indeed it's a double edged sword here, but as you conclude yourself in the rest of your comments, you will need others to easily do everything, so either you KoS for the stuff you want, or you try to see if this person might be willing to team up so you can both do more. And i have no illusion about stopping certain people to just KoS or snipe other players, i don't see them as the true problem. These players add a certain risk to the game that zed's just can't provide, hence the 4 slots to make survival (staying alive) possible for them. But even for these players there are now reasons to team up with other snipers, because together they be able to do more than on their own. For a great number of regular players though, that currently KoS because there is nothing to gain from working together the game changes, there is something to gain, and thus is becomes a true choice again to KoS or Not. Which i think it should be...

This is a terrible way to force co-op play as well; With this system, unless you played together every waking moment with your buds, you would be forced to rely on the "cooks" in the party; The guys carrying matches/wood/hatchet/knife. That's 4 toolbelt slots gone already just to cook food, unless you use the "Knife" and "Hatched" Packs, which is still minimum 2 slots from your main belt gone already. Sure you could split it up, but that makes your team even more susceptible to failure because if even one person isn't there, someone has to change their "class" just to pick up matches or a hatchet for wood or whatever.

exactly, I appreciate you going through the list of pouches/bags to rightfully conclude this. And I am glad you came to the same conclusion as myself, so from the way the pouches are set up they will do exactly what they are intended to do ;)

This is anything but full freedom; It's extremely limiting the play-style of anyone that doesn't play with a bunch of friends.

I admire your efforts to knock out 2 pretty big issues with one suggestion, but this is not a long-term fix for either issue. It just isn't practical in the scope of a survival environment, since you're literally having to rely on a minimum of 4 other people to make sure all of your bases re covered.

Well that's not true, limiting would be if you would not be able to use a tool because you are not allowed to, because f/e you didn't pick the mechanic class, or you didn't unlock the 'wrenching perk', or haven't killed enough zeds to gain XP to use a certain tool (aka. all sorts of RPG ways). There is nothing preventing you from carrying most of the tools in your backpack, and switching them out on the toolbelt to be able to use them. BUT, you if you choose to do so you will have less space in your backpack to take other usefull items, like food/ammo.

And if this suggestion would indeed mean that you need 4 people to do everything efficiently and effectively, then it does exactly what i meant for it to do. It will 'gently' force people to team up, and to team-up you need not KoS ... So I don't realy get how you conclude that this wouldn't work, if from your arguments i can clearly conclude it would work. That you don't like it is another thing entirely, and you are free to do so :)

[The OCD 10]

And if this suggestion would indeed mean that you need 4 people to do everything efficiently and effectively, then it does exactly what i meant for it to do. It will 'gently' force people to team up, and to team-up you need not KoS ... So I don't realy get how you conclude that this wouldn't work, if from your arguments i can clearly conclude it would work. That you don't like it is another thing entirely, and you are free to do so :)

As it is now, you can play as efficiently by yourself as you can in groups. With your idea, solo play would be severely crippled. In a sandbox game, you strive for more sandbox, not punishing people for playing a certain way. That's called regression. It isn't a matter of me "liking" the idea or not; it doesn't fit with the premise of the game and punishes people for not being social players.

[bazbake 456]

As it is now, you can play as efficiently by yourself as you can in groups. With your idea, solo play would be severely crippled. In a sandbox game, you strive for more sandbox, not punishing people for playing a certain way. That's called regression. It isn't a matter of me "liking" the idea or not; it doesn't fit with the premise of the game and punishes people for not being social players.

I don't know. Strikes me as a weak argument. Absolute freedom in a sandbox game does not necessarily make a great sandbox game. If GTA didn't have police, it wouldn't necessarily be a better game -- it would be a shooting gallery. A sandbox with no boundaries is just a sandpile after all. And with shit in it, it's a catbox.

That said, I don't really like OP's idea. I'm not going to try and appeal to logic, I'm just going to say that I don't like those particular restrictions. On the other hand, you could easily get around it by just sticking tools in your backpack when not in use.

Edited August 10, 2012 by BazBake

[The OCD 10]

I don't know. Strikes me as a weak argument. Absolute freedom in a sandbox game does not necessarily make a great sandbox game. If GTA didn't have police, it wouldn't necessarily be a better game -- it would be a shooting gallery. A sandbox with no boundaries is just a sandpile after all. And with shit in it, it's a catbox.

That said, I don't really like OP's idea. I'm not going to try and appeal to logic, I'm just going to say that I don't like those particular restrictions. On the other hand, you could easily get around it by just sticking tools in your backpack when not in use.

I said nothing about absolute freedom, your words not mine. Adding police to GTA doesn't cripple anyone's gameplay. They may have to run from them and blow them up at times, but it does not prevent them from progressing at a reasonable rate.

This suggestion on the other hand would limit solo play tremendously, requiring you to fill your pack up with extra tools that you NEED to progress, which is apparently what the suggestion is mostly about for some reason? I agree there should be better incentives for group play, but not at the intentional exclusion of solo play.

[L0G!N (DayZ) 149]

@OCD Seeing we could keep this up for a while, me pointing out that in essence one would not be restricted and you repeating in essence we are restricted, basically turning this into a discussion about the essence of restriction. And obviously a fundamental discussion about the essence of a sand-box game would soon follow or atleast be part of the discussion... and while that discussion may be interesting it will not help this suggestion along any time soon...

So let me change the angle of the discussion. What if the toolbelt slots would be more limited (in relation to Ingame now) so you are restricted in what you can do off the bat (do note this is already restricted by the tools you find). But now these toolbags are in the game, and if you find the right ones (possibly various combinations may work), you would be able to carry all the tools again.

Players would still feel restricted, atleast for as long as they don't have all the needed toolbags, and thus may decide teaming up is in their interest as it largely expands the things they can do at that particular moment. The KoS is still that double edged sword of being able to do more, or being able to do a little bit more yourself (with bags of the killed player), or just prevent being shot one self. So for a large part of the gameplay (early to midgame) the suggestion would work. Then if you have all your bags and found all tools you would be able to do everything yourself again (maybe hold 1 or 2 in your bag)

Would that change your mind ?

(can't give the exact number of slots on this one though, little time atm. and it's nowhere near clear howmany tools there will be)

Edited August 11, 2012 by L0G!N

[The OCD 10]

So let me change the angle of the discussion. What if the toolbelt slots would be more limited (in relation to Ingame now) so you are restricted in what you can do off the bat (do note this is already restricted by the tools you find). But now these toolbags are in the game, and if you find the right ones (possibly various combinations may work), you would be able to carry all the tools again.

Players would still feel restricted, atleast for as long as they don't have all the needed toolbags, and thus may decide teaming up is in their interest as it largely expands the things they can do at that particular moment. The KoS is still that double edged sword of being able to do more, or being able to do a little bit more yourself (with bags of the killed player), or just prevent being shot one self. So for a large part of the gameplay (early to midgame) the suggestion would work. Then if you have all your bags and found all tools you would be able to do everything yourself again (maybe hold 1 or 2 in your bag)

By definition, wouldn't this suggestion basically just be redundant? Instead of looking for 1 rare set of items, you now have to look for 2 (tools + packs). The only way I could see this being a positive gameplay enhancer would be to reduce the number of packs drastically, and have a chance for the actual tools to be included in those packs when you pick them up.

For instance, by condensing like items into a single pack, you could completely do away with:

Knife Pack

Map Pack

Canteen Buckle

Hatchet Pack

and combine them into one, maybe a "Survival Pack", and include a box of matches with it. Limit the number of Packs people can carry to 1, but boost their effectiveness by a good bit. So the survival pack would be able to hold all of those things, and give it maybe 4-8 additional slots for food or extra canteens.

The same could be done for a medical kit/sewing kit(into a Medic Pack) while giving the wearer the ability to blood bag themselves (or up to 4 people at once as long as they are still, unattended thanks to the inclusion of a Fluid Infusion Stand(this would be a miniature version of the stands they use in hospitals for fluid infusion)) over a long duration(1-5 minutes maybe). Along with this, I'd like to see blood bags become much more rare; still in hospitals, but in much smaller quantities as well as providing an actual quantity of blood. Maybe that's 12,000, but it can be used partially and reused within the same day until it's empty. After a day, any non-full bags would be "spoiled" or something and unusable. Blood-bagging would take significantly more time, maybe around 1 minute if it's player to player, but it uses the entire bag if you don't have the Medic Pack.

Condense the gun cleaning pack, holster, and ammo pack into one, and call it a Soldier's Pack or something. It would provide storage for an additional primary and secondary weapon, gun cleaning supplies(if that comes into play), and maybe 8+ additional slots for clips/boxes of ammo.

Lump all of the "tools" into one Tool Pack(toolbox would still exist and would be vastly inferior to the tool pack), which will allow you to assemble/disassemble razor wire and tank traps/new fortifications much faster than normal. Up the time it takes to place these kinds of things with only a toolbox to maybe a minute, and with the Tool pack it would take you maybe 10-20 seconds to construct or deconstruct those same things.

The goal is to offer actual perks to having those packs in your group, opposed to just convenience. So if each pack offered something Unique that nothing else in game could offer, the intrinsic value would be much higher. It might even outweigh the risk of KoS, but we just don't know until we see it in action. There is room for a few more Pack ideas, up to 6 minimum probably, to make the system into a complete functional overhaul and improvement for every play-style.

TL;DR: Combine the like items into more condensed packs; Packs would provide one-of-a-kind benefits opposed to just convenience or more slots. Limit number of packs a person can carry to 1, while having maybe 4 tool slots on their belt.

Edited August 11, 2012 by The OCD

[L0G!N (DayZ) 149]

I'm sorry OCD, but i read this a couple of times and gave it some time to sink in, but i don't like your suggestion above here, the whole idea of a lot of packs is to give people choices asto what they 'become', another thing is to offer progress (in the sense that they start out with just belt slots in which they can carry tools, to then find packs and thus expand what they can do, and last is to limit peoples ability to become everything ...

I think i tried to go along with your criticism for a decent amount, even to a point where i personally wouldn't like to go (aka. make it possible again to have people do everything again)... but by condensing the packs you give people less choices, by adding all sorts of bonusses (or perks) to bags gives it a whole different purpose asto what i intended for this idea ... I do somewhat see a option for packs to spawn with some or all the items that belong in there, just as a means to increase spawned items and make finding these packs a bit more than just finding a pack ...

And lastly, the limiting the amounts of packs to 1 and have these perks, well i would just like to point to your own criticism in regards to my suggestion here and think real good on whether this idea actually passes the test of your own innitial criticism, you may want to type out entirely how your idea would take shape (in notepad f/e) and then see if it holds up...

[kebman 213]

I'm afraid it would make the game impossible to play solo. Then it would not be interresting for me anymore.

Also I do not want the restriction to having to have a medical pouch to carry medical equipment. I'll carry my medical equipment any way I damn well please - because I cannot afford fancy pantsy medical Gucci pouches for medical stuff when I'm trying to survive.

On the other hand, I'd love to start with a smaller pack - thus making startup more challenging - and maybe make the packs more dynamical when it comes to storing stuff. After all, a box of matches does not take up one slot in my backpack IRL. More likely it goes into one of the pockets in my pants. Having this fixed would be great.

[pawlzz 18]

The best "RPG-style" idea I've heard. I really hate classes ideas. This one is still kinda nice, because you can switch the bags whenever you want and it improves teamwork.

Only one thing: It's not very realistic that you can't put (for example) a bandage in for a toolpack. A restriction of something like that is a bit strange.

But anyway, great thoughts.

[Dalfryth 2]

please excuse the wall of text... a lot of comments etc being consolodated and hopefully i can make more people think this is a v good idea

some brilliant ideas there...

a touch of expansion would imo make this an extremely valid idea... (possibly a nightmare to code but i'll say it anyways)

would just like to add before you misunderstand where i'm coming from... I do have a certain degree of military experience

at present you strat with 32 slots of some description plus your backpack and weapon slots... i believe reducing this would make initial play more challenging without making it too difficult (bear with me on this)

starting without the backpack isn't too much of an unbelievable option... i would however make smaller backpacks a more abundant drop (i think most of us would agree to having at least 1 small backpack somewhere in their house)

1) with the knife pack (as suggested in the OP)... I think it is a fair argument that when you find the knife, it would fit on your belt without taking a "pack slot" and also includes a bonus slot for matches/firestarter (as described earlier in the post)

2)the map should have its own slot (similar to the optics slot)... at the end of the day its a piece of paper... would take up minimal space

3)the watch would have its own slot (on your wrist)... i know this wasn't mentioned but added it anyway :)

4)possibility of 2 differenet compasses... one that takes a slot and one that could go around your neck (think military compass vs silva... could have some kind of benefit to the one that takes a slot)

5)with the medical pack... you could have it inclue a bonus to healing ability... would have f/e 3 slots that you could put anything in (its a pouch at the end of the day)... would mean it still increases your space but not as much as a general pack.

6)you could also include an item (such as a PLCE belt) which would increase your pouch capacity by 1 (rare drop but nice for the lone wolves)

7)an option of finding a V V rare MOLLE equivalent of all backpacks that would further increase your pouch capacity by 1 (google it if you dont know what i mean)

8)hatchet carrier could also be a free slot (allowing survival players still free to have a "class" selection) possibly having 2 diffrent sizes of hatchet/axe... small one that takes free slot but no option as weapon (a hatchet can be anything from 8" to 24") and a larger one that can be used as a weapon but takes a slot

9)a magazine pouch (at least the ones i have on my webbing have 2 pouches holding 3 rifle magazines each... you could probably fit a couple of tins of beans in each pouch again... non specific capacity but could have improved reload speed with a magazine pouch

10)inclusion of a holster is a nice idea... opens up the option of carrying multiple sidearms (not unrealistic)... save your SD ammo for when stealth is important and your .45 for emergencies

11)the quiver is also a very nice idea... definately should only hold bolts/arrows though... a typical quiver is normally either a narrow tube or thin pouch shape and would be inplausable for holding anything that isn't long and thin (like an arrow)

also... adding the option of a certain degree of stacking (e.g. bandages) and charges (e.g. painkillers/antibiotics) means that although you have reduced inventory capacity you have also reduced (to a degree) the required capacity to be able to survive on your own

think I pretty much covered all the things i thought of while reading... will keep thinking about this :)

sorry about the wall of text

Edited November 3, 2012 by Dalfryth