What MineZ is Doing Right, and What DayZ Could Learn From It.

[jovial 17]

Most retarded point in the whole text

-More eyes watching their sectors

-Higher situational awareness

-More guns sending hell down range when things go to shit

-More inventory space which allows you to carry car parts and other stuff without sacrificing food+water

-Ability to guard corpses in case someone dies

-Ability to define roles that cancel out each others disadvantage

But OOHHHH you need artificial gameplay mechanics to give you an actual reason to form groups....

You really are one hell of a fool, go play MineZ

Also this while I'm in the thread. :)

Some people can't handle the basic concept of sandbox games. They need rules and mechanics to enforce everything. Snipers are gonna kill you, and you can't kill them. Deal with it. Perhaps by grouping up, for some of the above mentioned reasons. Bandits in general are gonna kill you. Again, deal with it. Same solution.

[hkurban 31]

OP, first off I will say I support a couple of your ideas. I like the idea of a faster "friendly" animation, but I don't feel it should be top priority right now. Likewise, an increase in the ratio of civilian weapons would probably make a huge impact on gameplay, but that's more of a "tweaking" of values rather than the radical changes being made at this stage. Still, I would not mind if DayZ did incorporate these two features.

Some of the other ideas, I'm not too fond of, such as nametags. If you want someone to know your name, you'll tell them, or it'll show up in text chat if you use that feature.

Still, my main reason for posting is to address your concern of the whole "unseen snipefest" issue. I play both solo and in groups, and I've yet to die from a sniper in my many hours racked up in game. While I won't go so far as to say you're playing "wrong", I thought I'd edificate you on my playstyle for solo survival, so that you can try it, and see if you don't last a few minutes longer.

I should caveat that while I have yet to die by the hands of a hidden sniper, I've come under fire from snipers, I've been hit, and even sometimes mortally wounded by snipers, but I've never been added to a sniper's murder count. I have however, died plenty of times in close quarters and ranges not exceeding 100 meters, usually from poor decisions in the moments where you only have seconds to react. I've also been on the other end of the scope, providing overwatch for my friends going into towns and cities. A little bit of background also is that I am in the Military and apply the fundamental tactics to staying alive in this game. In any case, here is what I offer to you:

When I move, I plan my route carefully. I try to avoid being out of cover/concealment for more than a few seconds at a time. If I have to cross a road, I'll do it at the point with as little open space on either side of the road as possible. If I'm entering a town, I'll try to come in on the side closest to the woods, or otherwise offering the best c&c.

The real trick is, never assume you're safe. Always assume that a sniper is out there, and take steps to minimize his ability to get a shot on you. Minimize your signature, move from cover to cover quickly, avoid aggroing zombies and painting a tail on your back. If you do have to handle them, do it silently in the cover of a house and then don't come back out the way you came.

Most of my deaths have occurred when I failed to remain hypervigilant (the same level of hypervigilance you need to identify IEDs while on patrol). Once I died because I thought I secured the Balota ATC, only to have a guy pop out from under the stairs on my way down. Another time I got complacent and strolled up to a deer stand, only to run smack into another player and get mowed down before I could get out my PvP gun (had a zombie slaying weapon out). There have been times where I spotted players on the move and they had no idea I even existed. Even on low pop servers, I have to assume this situation often reciprocates, and some bandit is eyeing me hungrily as I haplessly jog through the forests. As a result of this assumption, I'll often take a look over both shoulders while on the move, making sure I didn't mysteriously grow a tail while heading from town to town. The key to being safe again lies in assuming you are not safe, and taking steps to protect yourself under this assumption. I cannot stress this enough.

Sometimes you just have to make judgement calls, and say, "yes, my character is hungry, but going into that town is just too risky at this point. Or maybe you feel a town is safe, and suddenly a shot rings out. What do you do? Do you keep on looting assuming some other players are getting into it? Do you bolt out of town like a bat out of hell, picking up a "Z-train" on the way? Or do you quickly plot a safe escape route with good cover and concealment, limiting your visibility if they didn't see you, and reducing the time they have to line up a shot on you if they did.

A lot of times it will chalk up to luck though. Sometimes no matter what you do, someone will be in a well hidden OP overlooking the town you are looting. Or maybe, as you suggest, they'll come up on the town after you did, scope in to see what's inside, and spot you crouchwalking your way out of the supermarket. In these cases, assuming the sniper can't headshot you, what you do after being shot at will make the difference to your survival. Do you drop prone in the middle of an open area? Wrong. That just gives the sniper a stationary target. Dead. Do you duck behind a nearby bush? Maybe, if its a larger bush and you know where the shooter is. A bush is not cover though. It is only concealment. It will not protect you from bullets, and only make it harder for the sniper to line up a shot. Your best bet is to find the nearest solid thing to put between you and the sniper. If you know where he is, and you can put a wall between him and you, then great. If you don't know where he is, hit the nearest enterable building and stay away from windows.

Once you've gotten cover between you and the sniper, bandaged your wounds, and dealt with any zombies you might have picked up on the way, it's time to plan your escape (and without hitting the Alt-F4 wormhole generator). The sniper at this point is probably pre-lining his shot on the door he thinks you'll come out of. He probably expects you to just peek out at first. Maybe not. You'll have to do some thinking here. Try to predict what the shooter will do. Whatever he thinks you'll do, do the opposite. Do something unexpected to mess up his pre-determined shot. Then move from cover to cover never giving the sniper more than a three seconds max with you exposed. Try reciting the mantra "I'm up, he sees me, I'm down". By the time you get to "I'm down", you should be back in cover. Also remember to vary your path of travel. Don't just make a B-line for the edge of town. Vary your path, serpentine a little bit without making it too pronounced, and do whatever it takes to keep him guessing and keep him from effectively leading you and walking you into his crosshairs.

Hope this helps, OP. If not, I do hope you enjoy MineZ. Sounds like it would be a lot of fun. It's a shame you weren't around a while back when this game was younger. The first 3 strangers I encountered were all friendly AND armed.

[Carl Weathers 3]

I agree with the Sniper argument to an extent. I think the balance to this should be extending the high power rifle's arg range. I live in wooded area in PA that has a surge in population during deer season. Now when this happens you will hear high power shots ring through a valley. I'm talking about an ENTIRE VALLEY. In the zombie apocalypse this would surely be your undoing, so make sniping more unpractical without some sort of support.

The main issue most people hate about snipers is that they are almost strictly a pvp tool, which I'm completely fine with in the scenario. The big thing I dislike is the fact that they can perch themselves on a hill and fire into a valley and the low laying zeds in the valley are completely unaware of his presence. If Rocket TRULY wants to bring people together this would be a great way to do so. I mean who would want to guard someone grieving noobs as they rush into Cherno, but the sniper weapon would still be an critical aspect of grouping up and defending/assaulting camps.

I also would like to see some more domestic weapons found within the game. Hunting stands should spawn revolvers and CZs if anything and AKs should be the mainstay of Military camps.

[frodevil 15]

So basically DayZ: Banditz r MEEN :( Edition?

Or maybe DayZ: Casual Bullshit edition?

DayZ: Carebears Edition?

leave it to minecraft to casualize and strip the core part of a game because it's too hard for the 12 year olds that play it.

[thundereagle 0]

So for those of you who don't know, MineZ is a mod for Minecraft that's trying to emulate DayZ. It's not trying to BE DayZ, it's simply taking the open-world, persistent survival apocalypse and translating it over to Minecraft. The mod is in "Beta", but it's very clearly still in technical Alpha. For those interested, head over to /r/MineZ

Who cares, though? DayZ already exists. What could we possibly learn from some cheap imitator? Well, turns out MineZ is doing a lot of things that DayZ could learn from, and I think could work really well towards improving player relations in the future.

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MineZ has a very clear "Friendly" stance that is easy to see and duplicate without compromising offensive ability.

In MineZ, simply "blocking" with right click is usually a sign of a friendly. This happens instantly and doesn't take 1-3 seconds for an animation. If they're barreling towards you with no intention of stopping, it's not a friendly. This makes it pretty damn easy to read someone's intentions. You get a few tricksters, but overall, it's much easier to read than in DayZ.

DayZ has a few of these, but almost all of them require the player to "disarm", or at least drop their ability to aim/shoot for the moment. Waggling with Q and E is currently the best option, but even that can really risky at times.

DayZ also struggles with visibility. Half the time, you aren't even going to see the other person unless they're right in front of you, and if they're right in front of you, someone is almost always going to shoot first. It's sad, but true. Maybe with something quicker, and immediately recognizable with a simple press of a button, DayZ survivors wouldn't always have to shoot on sight in these scenarios. I'm thinking "Wave".

Grouping up has great benefits, while solo play isn't punished.

This is something DayZ struggles with, but MineZ gets a lot of it right on it's first try. In MineZ, zombies are a big threat. If you're taking on a group of 3-4 solo, you're in for a battle, and your little wooden sword will probably be gone by the end of it. I learned early on that grouping up with even one more person increases your chances of survival by a considerable amount. Other people know this too, so grouping up with other kindly survivors is pretty easy to accomplish.

Banditry is also rampant in MineZ, so having a buddy along with you really helps increase survival chances. I remember we were rolling with a big group, and I got attacked. I ran back to the group, they noticed I was getting attacked, and they zerg'd the bandit. It was hilarious to watch, and he ran away as fast as he could. It was great.

The only problem MineZ runs into with groups is finding enough food. In DayZ, this isn't really a problem, so I think that if DayZ had a more identifiable "friendly" stance and harder zombies, we might see a little more player cooperation.

MineZ's weapons are naturally less threatening, promoting group play and easily identifying bandit intentions.

A lot of threads are popping up both around Reddit and on the DayZ forums promoting one idea: There's simply too many high-powered guns in the game. Right now, everyone and their mother has an assault rifle or sniper rifle, and if you don't, you probably have a high-powered sidearm. This makes relations with other players very uneasy, because if another player wants to kill you, they'll probably do it in one shot, without you seeing them.

This isn't the case in MineZ. The weapon with the most range is a bow and arrow, and you can clearly see if someone has one and is about to use it. Otherwise, bandits have to get up close and personal to dispense with you. You almost always have a chance to fight back, and bandits have to work for their kills.

DayZ has a lot to learn from MineZ in this respect. The rate of high-powered sniper rifles in DayZ is simply too damn high. In a zombie apocalypse, maybe ONE crazy individual is going to be perched somewhere with a DMR, picking off survivors. What you're NOT going to see is entire teams of ghillie-suited folks sitting on hills doing this. The resources wouldn't be that readily available in the real world, but in DayZ they are.

DayZ needs to tone down its high-powered military equipment, especially the long-range stuff. You can survive just as well with a Winchester and Makarov against Zeds as you would with a silenced M4 and G17. The military grade stuff seems to be there just to buff bandits, especially the sniper rifles. In MineZ, you'll be lucky to run across an Iron sword (The equivalent of an assault rifle), and it actually HELPS you against Zeds, not just players.

DayZ could learn from MineZ by severely increasing the rarity of military sniper rifles (CZ 550s and Lee Enfields becoming the norm for snipers), and decreasing the overall number of assault weapons. To help with the monotony, DayZ could add a few more low-tier weapons to its ranks, such as more melee and more "common household" firearms. I think this would help considerably to getting DayZ back to its roots, and feel more grounded without everyone running around with M4s and DMRs.

Bandits are easily identifiable by unique player skins and easy-to-read nametags.

I had a very fun time last night forming a rivalry with another player on MineZ. His name was Loborabo or something similar, and whenever we saw each other, it was time for battle. We formed this rivalry because we could instantly recognize each other, identify the other as hostile, and engage in combat.

In MineZ, identifying a bandit after they've killed you is very easy. It does this in a number of ways. First, player skins are very identifiable from a distance, and almost everyone is unique. Unlike the samey kind of look that everyone has in Arma II, this gives the player the immediate ability to say "Oh! That's that guy! KILL HIM!". This also gives that bandit a reputation.

MineZ also has the classic " Player X MURDERED Player Y!", but only at close range. These are not global broadcasts, only within a certain radius, where in real life you might notice the dying screams or gunshots of a murder in progress. If you round a corner and all of a sudden see Player X, then you can be extra cautious (In case it was self defense).

Also, MineZ does have player tags, but it's damn near impossible to see these player tags at range. This makes it so you don't have the DayZ problem of "Oh I just saw a player tag 1000m that way, let's have a look-see through my sniper. Oop! There he is! *bang...*

These systems in MineZ made keeping track of known bandits very easy, and avoiding them even easier. With nametags only visible at short range, unique player skins that easily identify who someone is, and very clear "X Killed Y" messages around you, banditry is a much more challenging art in MineZ than it is in DayZ.

It also doesn't hurt that MineZ doesn't have sniper rifles. Just sayin'.

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From my time with MineZ, it's a much more friendly and cooperative experience than DayZ. Yeah, you'll get some of those dicks that kill you for no reason, but more often than not, after exchanging a few crouches and wags of the sword, you'll get a buddy to help you through the apocalypse.

I think DayZ could really use to have a little more of that.

EDIT: Finally got it all formatted correctly.

tl;dr: remove guns

[frodevil 15]

blah blah blah changing my tactic=punishing a playstyle (did i mention I like to italicize things alot?) so this game is total shit

You keep spouting the punishing a playstyle bullshit over and over again, but what you don't realize is that changing your tactics isn't punishing a playstyle.

When other people say "MineZ punishes you for doing X" they mean that the creator intended for it to happen. As in, the creator did NOT want you to do whatever you are doing, so he purposely gave you a meta-style drawback that has no real bearing to real life. For instance, nametags make it nearly impossible to sneak efficiently.

But you seem to be confused about this. You think that players running into a problem and finding a solution (e.g. "I saw someone else get sniped in this town I'm about to enter. I'd better stay down and try to find where the sniper could be, and change my plans accordingly to avoid him") is punishing a playstyle, when it's not. If you sprint into a town guns blazing, you're going to get draw attention, be it negative or positive (the former being most likely).

That's just simply a fact of life. In order for you to have gotten sniped, you had to have been noticed by him beforehand (your fault). This isn't Rocket punishing the player with unrealistic downsides; the player is punishing himself by being hasty and cocky.

About the Snipefest thing: That's how warfare is. Crack, Boom. You're dead. It is fast, gruesome, visceral and, above all else, confusing. You might get shot at and not find the shooter for a million years. It's unexpected and jarring--that's just how it is.

No amount of training in the world can prevent you from getting hit by a lucky AK spray.

And the reason so many people have high-grade weapons is due to server-hopping, which theoretically shouldn't happen. Ergo it's not a valid point on your side.

tl;dr Go back to your casualized bullshit Lego game or stop crying.

[frodevil 15]

In minecraft if someone tricks me and attacks me, I still can win really easily.

In DayZ, because of the latency, desync issues, and 1 shot kills, there is no way to win if someone wants to ambush you or trick you.

1. Don't use non-theoretical points to try and prove your arguments

2. It's an ambush. That's what happens. If planned correctly by the ambusher, everything will go terribly for you and will go great for him. That's how it works.

[Virfortis 111]

Adapt or Die

Get rid of sniper rifles. Then you have to adapt or die.

[funionz 7]

Edit : Read his post wrong, nevermind carry on

Edited July 11, 2012 by Aaron

[SixPackAbs 13]

to the guy who was talking about legos

LegoZ would be amazing. i want the "Any Freindlies in Cherno" set, it has a lego dood with a sweet sniper rifle and a newb lego guy with an exploded lego head.

Edited July 11, 2012 by SixPackAbs

[slyder73 94]

Can't believe a crafting game almost in ASCII graphics that is targeted to preteens is being compared to DayZ?!

Can't believe there are pages of comments. Completely different target audiences and philosophy and a radical difference in level of realism.

Edited July 11, 2012 by Slyder73

[Virfortis 111]

Have you ever seen the Minecraft forums? The mentality is exactly the same in their PvP/Arena forums.

"game is perfect! go back to wow noob!"

[underscore 12]

You are alone on this I'm sorry most people here understand how the game is played and why it plays the way it does.

This. Also, familiarize yourself with the term survivorship bias. OP you're wasting your time. We tried having these discussions weeks ago and that ship has long sailed. Leave this troll game to the trolls. Apparently, that's rocket's vision. My best advice: ignore this game and allow mother nature to take its course. Dayz will stagnate and wallow as it sinks ever deeper into griefer muck, but sooner rather than later something better will rise to replace it. At the core of this mod there lies a kernel of amazing, innovative gameplay. If rocket fails to develop it properly, then somebody else will. So, no worries, but trying to argue with these fanboys is nothing more than an exercise in futility. Spare yourself the frustration.

[Virfortis 111]

This. Also, familiarize yourself with the term survivorship bias. OP you're wasting your time. We tried having these discussions weeks ago and that ship has long sailed. Leave this troll game to the trolls. Apparently, that's rocket's vision. My best advice: ignore this game and allow mother nature to take its course. Dayz will stagnate and wallow as it sinks ever deeper into griefer muck, but sooner rather than later something better will rise to replace it. At the core of this mod there lies a kernel of amazing, innovative gameplay. If rocket fails to develop it properly, then somebody else will. So, no worries, but trying to argue with these fanboys is nothing more than an exercise in futility. Spare yourself the frustration.

This, pretty much. I think it's time the intelligent people stayed put for a while.

DayZ will only continue to grow in popularity, sure, but eventually someone will make a good game out of the concept. This must be how Everquest players felt when WoW came along, really.

[jatobi (DayZ) 12]

I've got some beef with this MineZ crap already: Charging people $25 to play on the server running it.

Regardless of it being a "donation" and regardless of how long, you charged people $25 to play a "mod" you technically did not write yourself (using other mods?) and using the idea of someone like Rocket. You did not come up with this idea and are profiting off it, yet Rocket is not.

And before you say you don't force anyone to donate....you weren't letting people into the server until they donated AT LEAST $25.

Rocket should sue the shit out of you lol.

[Jackftw 310]

I have a good friendly indicator.. USE YOUR MIC YOU IDIOT.

If I hear some guy screaming FRIENDLY DON'T SHOOT through direct, I won't shoot. But if I see some idiot trying to salute or do some other crap, I'll just cap him and assume he was raising his weapon to fire at me.

[Virfortis 111]

I have a good friendly indicator.. USE YOUR MIC YOU IDIOT.

If I hear some guy screaming FRIENDLY DON'T SHOOT through direct, I won't shoot. But if I see some idiot trying to salute or do some other crap, I'll just cap him and assume he was raising his weapon to fire at me.

About that...

Direct only works at a short distance, and even then I've never picked it up. It seems to be pretty far behind the actual player chatter too. It's a technical issue that needs to be worked out, but until then it's not really a feasable workaround.

That said, I could have just been playing on a bad server.

[hkurban 31]

Rocket should sue the shit out of you lol.

Or Notch for that matter. Pretty sure its against Minecraft's TOS to make money off of mods or otherwise profiting from their IP without their go ahead. I could be wrong though, it's been forever since I played Minecraft.

[jatobi (DayZ) 12]

Or Notch for that matter. Pretty sure its against Minecraft's TOS to make money off of mods or otherwise profiting from their IP without their go ahead. I could be wrong though, it's been forever since I played Minecraft.

You know, you're right. Rocket AND Notch should sue them.

Any tools you write for the game from scratch belongs to you. Other than commercial use (unless specifically authorized by us in our brand and assets usage guidelines - for instance you are allowed to put ads on your YouTube videos containing Minecraft footage), you're free to do whatever you want with screenshots and videos of the game

[Virfortis 111]

Technically, if they're selling a pass onto their server, there's nothing illegal about it. It's no different than paying to join the whitelist of another, privately hosted Minecraft server.

Secondly, at the rate things are going, I'll be glad to see other DayZ-esque games pop up, maybe then someone will try to actually solve the community problems in one of them.

[jatobi (DayZ) 12]

Technically, if they're selling a pass onto their server, there's nothing illegal about it. It's no different than paying to join the whitelist of another, privately hosted Minecraft server.

Secondly, at the rate things are going, I'll be glad to see other DayZ-esque games pop up, maybe then someone will try to actually solve the community problems in one of them.

It is illegal to charge people money to join your server. You can ask for donations, but to force people into paying to join your server to play your so called "mod," which is nothing but a combination of other mods that you never made yourself, and an idea from someone else.....yeah, not legal brah.

You are most definitely allowed to put whitelists on your server. Forcing people to pay to play on the server is not allowed. Asking for donations is.

[Jackftw 310]

About that...

Direct only works at a short distance, and even then I've never picked it up. It seems to be pretty far behind the actual player chatter too. It's a technical issue that needs to be worked out, but until then it's not really a feasable workaround.

That said, I could have just been playing on a bad server.

I've never had any problems with direct chat what-so-ever. And if you're close enough to see someone, you're close enough to hear them. Me and a buddy were testing the range on direct and it seemed to go about 100 meters. Sure, you can see someone way farther than that, but hey this is a realistic game; and in real life, you wouldn't just trust someone to be friendly through their movement. You would run for cover and keep your eyes peeled on them (or if you're like me, you shoot them, lol)

[syncmaster (DayZ) 63]

I guess someone finally took the "If you don't like it make your own mod" comments personally and did just that..

[Virfortis 111]

I've never had any problems with direct chat what-so-ever. And if you're close enough to see someone, you're close enough to hear them. Me and a buddy were testing the range on direct and it seemed to go about 100 meters. Sure, you can see someone way farther than that, but hey this is a realistic game; and in real life, you wouldn't just trust someone to be friendly through their movement. You would run for cover and keep your eyes peeled on them (or if you're like me, you shoot them, lol)

As I said, likely I'm just on a bad server.

[underscore 12]

This, pretty much. I think it's time the intelligent people stayed put for a while.

DayZ will only continue to grow in popularity, sure, but eventually someone will make a good game out of the concept. This must be how Everquest players felt when WoW came along, really.

Well, in all honesty, I haven't given up on dayz. After all, I'm still here keeping my ear to the ground and seeing where rocket takes things over the next few months. The feedback has been given and now it's time to let the creator do his thing. But, I'm also curious to see what other designers will come up with amd the receptions other experiments receive. It's going to be a survival of the fittest situation. Or, more accurately, we'll see variations on the base concept with each filling a respective ecological niche and attracting its own playerbase. So, yeah, no need to panic.