'From my cold...dead...hands...' (rule based choices)

[hoik 415]

You can skip this first bit and go straight to the actual idea, it is my personal conclusions and not neccecary to understand the mechanics of the proposition.

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I'd just like to point this out to those who haven't already come to this conclusion - this game will NEVER be a acurate simulator because this relies on true freedom, real concequences and for everyone in the game to have a genuine intrinsic value as HUMAN BEINGS rather than infintly reincarnating mobile-loot-drops.

I have tried my hand (theory: http://dayzmod.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=12557 and implementation: http://dayzmod.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=10295 ) at comming up with a mechanic that would create "freedom" by giving a global value to everyone in the game - please read them as I belive they have merit and will appeal to those who value freedom.

IMO gamers have been conditioned not to think because of a lifetime of being dicated to by video games. Even when games try to counter this by asking a player to make a moral decision (Which is EXACTLY what DayZ is asking you to do, even if that decision is completley immoral/amoral), they fail and actually REINFORCE the norm by using hard and fast rules to "guide" players rather then let them and their (gaming) community decide for themselves what is right and wrong - the outcome is then always a irresponsible attitude. Personaly there needs to be a general adjustment of thinking - why would you want DayZ to take the easy road when it could be so much more inovative and a genuine shift in how we view games.

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This is my proposition on a "free" gameworld based on rules - all it aims to promote is thought.

"You'll have to pry it from my cold, dead, hands..."

This phrase is the idea behind a singel "primary" mechanic that will infuence a group of "secondary" mechanics. By making black/white rules define a SINGLE option each, and making each of those single options influence EACHOTHER (and heres the interesting part) each rule will in effect have many influences that do not tell you what you can and can not do, but makes you think before you decide HOW you are going to do it.

This idea takes artistic licence and is not "realistic", but aims to create a subtle, unimposing set of rules.

The primary mechanic is this:

- On spawn a player will have two items (example) automatically set as being in their "Death Grip" with a hand icon ( or lock symble, does not matter). This means that those items can only be taken from you if you are dead - a player can change their "death grip" on to any item they choose to at any time.

Now I know this sounds contradictory - surely this would PROMOTE PvP - and by itself it would. But this is where the other "secondary" rules come into play, these are:

...........

1. When a players is killed by PvP action the loot in the "death Grip" can not be taken from the backpack - you can take everything else, but you can't access the loot which the dead player valued most (unrealistic, but valid "artisticly").

2. When you commit a murder your "death grip" is loosened for a period of time. Cumilitive kills have an expenetial effect on the timer - This means that when you murder other players you void your death grip for a time that is effected by kill frequency and not kill amount. So - if killed while your "death grip" is loosened, you can be fully looted.

3. If a player whose (void) "death grip" cooldown is high (indicating they have killed A LOT of people in succession) gets killed by PvP - the reprecussions on the person who killed them would be minimul (This means their grip would be void for a very short time and so would the indicators that they have just murded someone).

This IS directly aimed at greifers and people who SOLEY rely on kill-looting as these are the most "thoughtless" playes in the game.

4. (optional: personally im not in favour of very obvious 'bandit' indicators) The cumiltive timer of a void "death grip" could be associate with visual and/or audio ques (such as "peace status"armband loss, gore = kill amount, or heart beat 'intuition') that will give a indicator that a players has recently killed someone - as said before the more successive kills the longer this "indicator" would take to where off.

...........

Thats a far as I'll go with "secondary" mechanics, but they could be endless (as long as they dont assume a right/wrong attitude) as they are essentially a CAUSE and EFFECT- I would be very interested to see if others could find ways to incorperate their own ideas into this mechanic!

1 LAW to RULE THEM ALL!

This is my logic on how this single "primary" rule and four "secondary" rules can tackle some of the most biteing issues (IMO) in the game - without penalising anyones play-style (from greifer to co-op junkie) just making them relevant.

- PVP IN GENERAL

PvP is a 'problem' for this simple reason - At the moment the weights of the game are 100% in the favour of very, very basic PvP with no reason to think of more imaginitive ways to get what you want off other people than shooting them on sight - That is why these rules are all a big buff for non-PvP play.

This is how I see it:

A Scavangers price for loot = TIME SPENT (this gives their loot value).

Kill-looters pay this same price (loot = TIME SPENT) for their loot, but then CAPITILISE on other players time spent without paying for it - and on top of that they then punish them further by making them start all over again.

The combination of the 'Five' rules simply add a tax onto kill-looting in the form of becoming a more attractive target - not too a bad a IMHO. So that is how I see it taking on greiving/ high kill bandits without discouraging killing others for loot - it simply rewards smart kill-looters and punishes dumb ones.

- GROUP DYNAMICS and TRUST

In general it will help with trust simply knowing that there is SOME thought proccesses going on : ) .

- "SURRENDER" OPTION

If a GOOD surrender animation was made this idea could help in negotiating with captors as they can not access your 'death grip' gear without some negotiation. The point being this actually GIVES the hostage some power in the situation and could arise in situations where compromises are found, this is taken from another thread of mine:

"*when forced into a surrender situation (I know for some people this may NEVER be an option, but personaly I think thats a uninteligent way to approach a situation where you are hopelessly outguned) your assailants can rummage through your pack and will be able to see (with little hand icons) what items you are clinging to for dear life.

*This could lead to tense (if one sided) negotiations between the bandits and the captor - but remember you as the captor have NOTHING TO LOOSE.

Remember, if they take all your stuff your dead anyway - if they execute you, yes, you are dead. So making a bargin - even a tough one - is actually the smart thing to do. They may shoot you, but if they dont within the first few seconds it is highly unlikely that this is their intention and you can play to this unwillingness to take another players life.

Of course this all hinges on life being given an very clear global value in the game. Without it the death of a stranger has zero impact on you, so with zero compromises you can kill him with no social or finatial impact - Im not in favour of punishing murderers, im all about freedom, but there should be mechanics which at the least make you think for a moment before putting a bullet in someones head."

I would love to see others try to tie in their ideas with these five rules to validate if the system would be as flexible as I belive it could be : )

Also, before you post let me just remind you that IMO 'realism' isnt relative at all to this thread as I have already stated this idea takes artistic licence and is trying to use 'gamey' rules to kick start some thought proccesses.

If you value "realsim" and more freedom see my signiture, as it takes on the other side of this argument.

[KnT47r 51]

Not so keen on this one. The troll in me would just sit and wait for the person to come grab his death-gripped stuff and I'd kill him again...and again...and again...etc

[Kransthow 1]

"I don't like people killing me so they shouldn't be able to take my stuff"

[edonovan 15]

Too complicated and still doesn't solve the PvP issue. The majority of murderer's are not killing for gear.

The best solution I've seen for PvP is to give murderers alcohol dependence. They get the shakes and need to drink some Whiskey to calm their nerves. It could be recurring or simply a few minutes after each murder. Relatively easy to implement, too.

[hoik 415]

"I don't like people killing me so they shouldn't be able to take my stuff"

Yeah fair enough, it is a bit like that - I came up with this idea to satiate people who kept telling me that I wasn't 'facing the problem' of PvP - That is that no matter the incentive mindless PvP will happen. Thats why the idea is rule based and lets the player know there are very clear and direct concequences to their actions - I think the choices are still there, but it is more finely controlled - which I am actually GLAD to see people dislike.

Thats not to say I don't think the idea has merrit, IMO it does :P .

@ KnT47r

" Not so keen on this one. The troll in me would just sit and wait for the person to come grab his death-gripped stuff and I'd kill him again...and again...and again...etc "

My thoughts were that the 'death grip' items are just out right irretrevable from the corpse by ANYONE including the killed persons next reincarnation, but I didn't make it clear. So camping a corpse (even though it would still be good stratergy for trolling in general) wouldn't be of much use to troll the same person again and again.

@ edonovan

"Too complicated and still doesn't solve the PvP issue. The majority of murderer's are not killing for gear."

I can agree its complicated (though not excessively).

What is the 'issue' with PvP? Bordom? Fear? Paranioa? IMO opinion the biggest issue is communication. Have a look at this thread on communication = "humanity" by Scerun is very good: http://dayzmod.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=14619

I have come to the conclusion that the PvP chaos going on in DayZ at the moment is actually a very good reflection of a society suddenly stripped of law (I base my view on the movie 'the road', I highly recomend it as reference/guide on how to view DayZ in its present state)

For me not PKing in DayZ is my own personal badge of honour - as I've said in other threads:

"Personally I like to think that there is already a 'humanity' system in the game (not the silly heart beat) and the fact is that the vast majority is succumbing to the pressures of a lawless society and therefore becoming lawless themselves. Being a 'good guy' has basicly no value in a DayZ scenario, its only value is to like minded individuals - these are rare ATM and therefore of a very high value (to eachother). If you resolve to be 'good' you have chosen high humanity - the reward is your own KNOWLEDGE of your decision - and it WILL be appreciated greatly by like minded players.

If you are trying to be 'good' but after being fucked over again and again YOU think 'no one cares, fuck it all, im going Pking" you have infact lost your humanity.

I know this is extreamly 'ungamey' and for most gamers the need for some sort of ingame 'pat on the back' (that are more for braging rights than anything else) or 'rap on the knuckles' is manditory/neccecary so they can read the game world. I agree to some extent - there has to be some tools to interpret the world, but I think we have all been playing games long enough to get beyound the obvious."

So from what I gather many players have resorted to SoS/PvP as means of survival because their trust has been crushed. And IMO trust is being so easilty crushed because of a lack universal and intuitive communication.

"The best solution I've seen for PvP is to give murderers alcohol dependence. They get the shakes and need to drink some Whiskey to calm their nerves. It could be recurring or simply a few minutes after each murder. Relatively easy to implement, too."

This is a simple solution, I value simplicity, but if you think that my proposed system wouldn't make people more 'imaginative' in their PvP actions I honestly don't see how you think this could.

If I wanted anyone to take anything possitive from this idea I would want that to be the idea of a well implemented surrender animation.

[dubghall 36]

I love your freedom rule... but not so much this one.  Its not just that the rule is "gamey" its that it feels arbitrary... For example much of the same would function based on tents, stashes, etc... since you could only get a player's stash location if they give it to you... or if you follow them at risk and find it.

I also dislike any mechanism that will tell you what someone's behavior has been prior to meeting you... other than their actual behavior upon meeting you.

IF the game had a mental aspect.. you could tell someone was unstable because of the way they acted... which would let you know theyd been through some shit... or that they were psychotic or both... I made a post in suggestions  on just such a mechanic.. No limit on KoS or solo play, but  a separate mental constitution mechanic, like hunger/thirst that would benefit certain types of behavior under specific circumstances.


Mental Constitution: http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/162490-mental-constitution-socialsurvival-mechanic-for-immersion/page-2?hl=mental

 

[TYS 25]

Hello all.

First of all I know there is a humanity imbalance in the game at the moment. This is very prevalent in the Mod. In the Mod one gained skins based off how much humanity one had. You lost humanity if you killed survivors and lost more if you killed a Hero. Eventually you would gain the Bandit skin, becoming recognizable to others as hostile and if people were near you a heartbeat sound played. If you had moderate humanity you had the survivor skin. You gained humanity through helping other players through medical aid and killing Bandits. Eventually you would gain the Hero skin. Heroes also ran faster than Survivors and survivors ran faster than Bandits.

 

Now this wasn't much of a deterrent in the mod, but Rocket and the team are gradually fixing it in the Standalone. Now items have durability and can be damaged, so shooting someone for their loot really isn't the best idea anymore as their gear is often badly damaged when you go to loot them. This has had a profound effect on player interaction. I have watched videos of people holding others up for only one item then scurrying away while they can. There are handcuffs and you can knock people down with your bare hands. There is much more roleplaying and the balance is being restored. Don't forget that banditry is a perfectly legitimate part of the game and I although I play the Hero in game, I personally oppose anyone who tries to remove banditry. Because it adds to the DayZ experience, that is why people play the game, for the adrenaline rush.

 

Do not try to remove or directly attack banditry with some kind of mechanic that restricts them from taking loot. Keep it realistic. It should be a choice for the player to make, and is often situational. "Should I shoot this guy or talk to him?" "If I do shoot him, I run the risk of damaging his gear." "If I talk to him, I have a chance of getting the item I want in pristine condition."

 

Hoik said at the start "...hard and fast rules to "guide" players rather then let them and their (gaming) community decide for themselves what is right and wrong..". He then introduces his own "black/white" rules. My question is.. WHY not let the DayZ community decide what they want to do in the game? That is REAL freedom IMHO. Not some absolutist rules that force players into a category.. "You drink whiskey or you don't."

 

Of course the devs have to keep the balance through innovative mechanics that are still realistic eg. Durability. Just leave it to the devs. Also playing the good guy does have value (trading, blood transfusions etc.) and drinking whiskey if you're a bandit just puts images in my head of the stereotypical bounty-hunter antagonist in a Western movie.

 

My two cents,

Sobaka

TYS

[hoik 415]

Its not just that the rule is "gamey" its that it feels arbitrary...

 

It is arbitrary :P.

 

Well first of all I'd like to point out this is a very old thread made back in the good ol days when everyone and their velociraptor was trying their hand at 'fixing' DayZ. This Idea was also purposefully aimed at giving DayZ 'hard and fast' rules and restricting freedoms - it is was an attempt to give the illusion of freedom within a framework of black and white rules. (It was intentionally the opposite of the 'life/death calculator idea).

 

But that doesn't mean the purpose wast to dictate to the players, as in TYS's example:

 

'You drink whiskey or you don't'

 

It would be more like:

 

'You drink whiskey, but are made well aware that if you abuse alcohol it will come back and bite you in the liver.'

 

Now this wasn't much of a deterrent in the mod, but Rocket and the team are gradually fixing it in the Standalone. Now items have durability and can be damaged, so shooting someone for their loot really isn't the best idea anymore as their gear is often badly damaged when you go to loot them. This has had a profound effect on player interaction. I have watched videos of people holding others up for only one item then scurrying away while they can. There are handcuffs and you can knock people down with your bare hands. There is much more roleplaying and the balance is being restored. Don't forget that banditry is a perfectly legitimate part of the game and I although I play the Hero in game, I personally oppose anyone who tries to remove banditry. Because it adds to the DayZ experience, that is why people play the game, for the adrenaline rush.

 

Do not try to remove or directly attack banditry with some kind of mechanic that restricts them from taking loot. Keep it realistic. It should be a choice for the player to make, and is often situational. "Should I shoot this guy or talk to him?" "If I do shoot him, I run the risk of damaging his gear." "If I talk to him, I have a chance of getting the item I want in pristine condition."

 

Hoik said at the start "...hard and fast rules to "guide" players rather then let them and their (gaming) community decide for themselves what is right and wrong..". He then introduces his own "black/white" rules. My question is.. WHY not let the DayZ community decide what they want to do in the game? That is REAL freedom IMHO. Not some absolutist rules that force players into a category.. "You drink whiskey or you don't."

 

Yes the SA is making strides to give players freedom and choice as well as consequences. And yes, I was directly contradicting myself when I was talking about games dictating to gamers and then coming up with my own black and white rules - it was intentional :). For me what they do with loot distribution and zombies, and how players may have influence over these aspects, is where I think the most innovative game play will emerge.

 

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On the subject of the game having a 'mental' aspect, I have this issue with it - if you consider this mental aspect to be implemented by the game, in response to the actions you have taken, then it is a mechanic telling you, you should feel this way or respond that way to this given situation. In this light the implementation of 'mental' aspects is actually a 'black and white' decision made by the programmers with a limited number of responses to a limited number of situations. IMHO you shouldn't try to implement 'mental' aspects into the game but rather implement logical cause and effect mechanics which will hopefully make people think. The way items take damage and the new options such as a proper surrender mechanic are both great examples of this - it lets things that are logically black and white (shoot something and it gets damages) influence peoples often less than logical thought processes.

Edited January 11, 2014 by Hoik

[dubghall 36]

I really root for your calculator man... Great idea. But wheres this dynamic zombie idea you reffd? From switch or something? The link didnt work...

Also... I still am working on how to get people to stck to a server even as theyre ruining it lol... Not easy. The link you posted for sabats solution to server hopping also is broken now... Care to summarize these ideas for us in a new post? In sa... Or slide me the deets and ill help.

Edited January 11, 2014 by spcmonkey

[hoik 415]

I'll find those links!

[TYS 25]

@Hoik Send those links to me as well please! :D More beans for you :beans: