Foregrips - What Should They Do And How Should They Do It?

[gibonez 3633]

I have no problem with the stocks and the hand guard so long as they are purely cosmetic and have no bearing on weapon performance.

 

That being said I would not lose sleep over the removal of the handguard and stock attachment on weapons seems like a complete and utter waste of time for the devs.

[Bororm 1156]

Handguard slot will likely be the same slot used for underslung grenade launchers I bet.

It already is a requirement for using the flashlight attachment that you have some particular hand guards, so there's a functional use already besides the arbitrary spread reducing nonsense.

 

 

You guys are too caught up on the now, and need to think about the later.  The point is the slots on weapons not necessarily what currently occupies them.

Think of it this way, what offers more potential for opportunity?  Not having attachments/these slots at all, or having them with currently unfavorable attachments?

Again, it's about laying a foundation.

[Elgen 9]

Hello.

ii think attachments make the weapons more realistic in the way they exist. They should not affect the accuracy or the stats of a weapon, but they should have some effect on the sway and time used to aim.

I was in the army two years ago. We used a modified version og A3G3 with no attachments and a HK416-n with moveable stock, red dot sights, foregrip, flashlight and so on. What my troop noticed is that we managed to clear buildings and so on alot faster with the HK rather than the G3. This had probably alot to do with the weight of the weapons too, but you can turn, aim, shoot and clear building rather faster with the foregrip and the red dot sightings.

my point is, if we want a more realistic game, that the attachments in the game should have realistic features.

Examples: foregrip should only affect the time used to aim and turn with your weapon in an aggressive stance. Not accuracy, damage and so on.

Red dot sight should decrease the animation time from when you are in an non-agressive stance to an agressive stance. However, red dot sight would not improve anything else except the cosmetics of actually being a sight.

stocks should have different values. If its a moveable stock, it should have lesser weapon sway in all states of a character. Prone as much as in a moving aggressive stance. However, if its a non-moveable short-stock, it would only have the bonus in a moving aggressive state, and the opposite if its a long stock.

When it comes to the handguard i dont think it would matter that much. If you want a fully modded weapon you need some kind of railed guard. And color on the guard should be able to be painted.

tl; dr

attachments should not improve damage, accuracy. Only weapon sway and the amount of time used to aim. Also a little decrease in sway depending on what attachment and what state you are in.

this is my view on it, feel free to tell the positive and negative sides on it.

thanks.

[hombrecz 832]

I wish devs acknowledged that current system of attachments influencing accuracy so much is just a placeholder.

That would make me sleep better.

 

On the other hand I dont have anything against attachments being in the game.

It's always nice to personalise your weapon a bit plus attaching scope and bipod should influence usability of the gun a lot.

[gibonez 3633]

Hello.

ii think attachments make the weapons more realistic in the way they exist. They should not affect the accuracy or the stats of a weapon, but they should have some effect on the sway and time used to aim.

I was in the army two years ago. We used a modified version og A3G3 with no attachments and a HK416-n with moveable stock, red dot sights, foregrip, flashlight and so on. What my troop noticed is that we managed to clear buildings and so on alot faster with the HK rather than the G3. This had probably alot to do with the weight of the weapons too, but you can turn, aim, shoot and clear building rather faster with the foregrip and the red dot sightings.

my point is, if we want a more realistic game, that the attachments in the game should have realistic features.

Examples: foregrip should only affect the time used to aim and turn with your weapon in an aggressive stance. Not accuracy, damage and so on.

Red dot sight should decrease the animation time from when you are in an non-agressive stance to an agressive stance. However, red dot sight would not improve anything else except the cosmetics of actually being a sight.

stocks should have different values. If its a moveable stock, it should have lesser weapon sway in all states of a character. Prone as much as in a moving aggressive stance. However, if its a non-moveable short-stock, it would only have the bonus in a moving aggressive state, and the opposite if its a long stock.

When it comes to the handguard i dont think it would matter that much. If you want a fully modded weapon you need some kind of railed guard. And color on the guard should be able to be painted.

tl; dr

attachments should not improve damage, accuracy. Only weapon sway and the amount of time used to aim. Also a little decrease in sway depending on what attachment and what state you are in.

this is my view on it, feel free to tell the positive and negative sides on it.

thanks.

This man gets it.

[Katana67 2907]

tl; dr

attachments should not improve damage, accuracy. Only weapon sway and the amount of time used to aim. Also a little decrease in sway depending on what attachment and what state you are in.

this is my view on it, feel free to tell the positive and negative sides on it.

thanks.

 

Agreed, the only folks that I think have suggested otherwise are the developers, unfortunately. But, we haven't received official word from them.

 

Attachments, at least ones like foregrips, should only affect how the weapon handles for the player. Not down-range accuracy.

Edited May 12, 2014 by Katana67

[hombrecz 832]

Devs said, that AKM will have lootable underfolding stock, so basically there will be AKM / AKMS.

That upper AKMS is the same I've got...only that mine is just airsoft toy O_o. Still love it though :).

 

Personally I'm not huge fan of overtuned AK's, I feel that wooden furniture + Kobra or PSO (maybe GP-25 & 30) is perfectly enough for that gun.

 

[Elgen 9]

Well, thats a nice to have a underfold stock too, but i have to say that a non-moveable long-stock in wooden furniture like the ones russia produced during the cold war is a beauty.

cant reallu understand why they would go for a lootable attachment-stock on an AK, there shoulnt be any besides a PSO mountable scope in some version.

However, im glad to have a rifle such as the AK no matter what version it is. Really hoping the sound and recoil is unforgiving! :-D

Last thing, who the fuck mounts a plastic handgrip to a wooden-furniture based gun?

[Katana67 2907]

Last thing, who the fuck mounts a plastic handgrip to a wooden-furniture based gun?

 

The folks who buy cheap, widely available railed foreguards to replace the vanilla polymer/wood furniture for their AKs?

 

And these gentlemen...

 

 

 

[hombrecz 832]

Well, thats a nice to have a underfold stock too, but i have to say that a non-moveable long-stock in wooden furniture like the ones russia produced during the cold war is a beauty.

cant reallu understand why they would go for a lootable attachment-stock on an AK, there shoulnt be any besides a PSO mountable scope in some version.

However, im glad to have a rifle such as the AK no matter what version it is. Really hoping the sound and recoil is unforgiving! :-D

Last thing, who the fuck mounts a plastic handgrip to a wooden-furniture based gun?

 

Well some folks like their AK like this for example.

While I generaly like the classic look a lot more, one can't argue that some attachments can make the gun handling more pleasant (in real life).

Ofc I would not expect that rather poor East block country (even fictional) would have heavily modded AK's in their armament, but what do I know.

 

edit: Ok Katana67 beat me to it.

 

Edited May 13, 2014 by Hombre

[Katana67 2907]

It's habbening!

 

 

And it's detachable! /hnnnnnngh

 

Hopefully it'll be able to be applied to the other weapons which can also mount it (see M4A1 w/ looted KAC RIS and AKM w/ looted MW rail).

[gibonez 3633]

It's habbening!

 

 

And it's detachable! /hnnnnnngh

 

Hopefully it'll be able to be applied to the other weapons which can also mount it (see M4A1 w/ looted KAC RIS and AKM w/ looted MW rail).

 

Hopefully the fore grips are attached to this mechanic.

 

[hombrecz 832]

 Not sure I'm on board with this BF-esque approach (works fine for BF but I'm assuming some of the realism humpers may not want it to have exorbitant benefits attached to it), but it could work if done properly. Or, they could all (or there could just be one model) do the same thing.

 

 

Please think about refraining from terms like this one.

I remember well your reaction, when I used term "gun crazy" or how you dislike expression "tacticool", which makes me wonder, how come you are doing the same now.

 

Demeaning or vitriolic posting seemed as something you were against, atleast that was what I thought up till now.

 

Regarding attachments, rather have them do nothing, then something crazy like +30 accuracy.

[Katana67 2907]

Please think about refraining from terms like this one.

I remember well your reaction, when I used term "gun crazy" or how you dislike expression "tacticool", which makes me wonder, how come you are doing the same now.

 

Demeaning or vitriolic posting seemed as something you were against, atleast that was what I thought up till now.

 

Regarding attachments, rather have them do nothing, then something crazy like +30 accuracy.

 

It's worth mentioning that this post is two months old, two months ago... I was getting a METRIC TON OF SHIT... DAILY... from people (including yourself) just for the mere suggestion of something made outside of Soviet Russia.

 

Things have changed since then.

 

It's also worth mentioning, that the context of the sentence is actually giving the so-called "realism humpers" what they want. Moreover, I have never... and I've stated this (because I'm one of them)... had an issue with folks who are reasonable about their desire for realism. Where I call people "realism humpers" is when they're unreasonable, overzealous, and vitriolic in the first place.

 

However, what you said is fair, and I will work to stop using the term. But just bear in mind, I see tons of shit... dismissals... illogical arguments... contradictions... indictments of the developers... and general bile... from people who want "realism" and feel it's okay to demean the neutral suggestions of others. On a daily basis. So, you'll forgive me if I get a bit terse from time to time.

Edited June 29, 2014 by Katana67

[TheWanderingMan 170]

Foregrips should be purely aesthetic. It's all to do with personal preference and really, guns don't need them. My dad used an FN Fal in the army, he thought it was fine. That had no foregrip. My uncle, who just came back from Afghan, used the SA80 and thought the SA80 was a great weapon. That had no foregrip. If foregrips were all advantage, I think all armies would have them on their guns. Many armies main battle rifles don't have foregrips, so surely that proves they are not the greatest things to guns since sliced bread.

 

We've been using fore grips on the rifle for at least four years, it's rare that someone would be issued a rifle without one unless they're a clerk or something similar. Those gangsta grips with the pop out bipod are utter wank though, I prefer the older hand guard with no rail system.

[hombrecz 832]

It's worth mentioning that this post is two months old, two months ago... I was getting a METRIC TON OF SHIT... DAILY... from people (including yourself) just for the mere suggestion of something made outside of Soviet Russia.

 

 

I've noticed the time of that post, after I wrote it, but yes you got a point here.

Anyway, if somebody is against it, he should steer clear of it himself, out of a principle and integrity, I'm glad you agree on that  :) .

 

Time has changed, that's also true. I no longer get irked that much, when someone suggests adding this or that gun.

I gave up on focusing if any gun would truly be found in my country or not.

 

What remains a bit troublesome concept for me, is that caliber "streamlining", because it is something so alien even when compared to the mod.

I was also both happy and sad, when they added CZ525, because they want to chamber it 5,56x45. Does that mean CZ525 will be almost useless, unless I hunt heli crashes or raid barracks for 5,56?

I mean how feasible is to do that, only to be able to feed civilian hunting rifle?

Kinda reminds me of how Sporter is handicaped, because mags spawn mostly in barracks or jail buildings.

 

These kinds of decisions make me worry, I still hope they will reconsider in many such cases.

[gibonez 3633]

I've noticed the time of that post, after I wrote it, but yes you got a point here.

Anyway, if somebody is against it, he should steer clear of it himself, out of a principle and integrity, I'm glad you agree on that  :) .

 

Time has changed, that's also true. I no longer get irked that much, when someone suggests adding this or that gun.

I gave up on focusing if any gun would truly be found in my country or not.

 

What remains a bit troublesome concept for me, is that caliber "streamlining", because it is something so alien even when compared to the mod.

I was also both happy and sad, when they added CZ525, because they want to chamber it 5,56x45. Does that mean CZ525 will be almost useless, unless I hunt heli crashes or raid barracks for 5,56?

I mean how feasible is to do that, only to be able to feed civilian hunting rifle?

Kinda reminds me of how Sporter is handicaped, because mags spawn mostly in barracks or jail buildings.

 

These kinds of decisions make me worry, I still hope they will reconsider in many such cases.

 

I am sure 5.56 will be a civilian spawn. Keep m4 mags as a military spawn and then incorporate 5.56 into the civilian spawns at the same rate as 7.62x39.

[hombrecz 832]

I am sure 5.56 will be a civilian spawn. Keep m4 mags as a military spawn and then incorporate 5.56 into the civilian spawns at the same rate as 7.62x39.

 

That would make 5.56 civilian weapons feasible. On the other hand, it would allow for frequent usage of NATO weapons, which I am not sure I like.

 

I mean, from gameplay perspective, I'm more confident with 5.56 spawning in barracks and helicrashes, than in civilian loot spawns.

Maybe if it was more rare, it would be ok, we'll see.

Edited June 30, 2014 by Hombre

[gibonez 3633]

That would make 5.56 civilian weapons feasible. On the other hand, it would allow for frequent usage of NATO weapons, which I am not sure I like.

 

I mean, from gameplay perspective, I'm more confident with 5.56 spawning in barracks and helicrashes, then in civilian loot spawns.

Maybe if it was more rare, it would be ok, we'll see.

 

Not really because we also have to factor in the magazines.

 

You also need to remember having the ability to frequently stock up on an assault rifle only increases the utility and the allure of an m4 or akm.

 

The use of the m4 should not be controlled with ammo rarity but instead with controlling the spawn rate of its magazines and or the weapon itself. Having only a finite number of akms and m4s around the game world would be ideal.

[hombrecz 832]

Not really because we also have to factor in the magazines.

 

You also need to remember having the ability to frequently stock up on an assault rifle only increases the utility and the allure of an m4 or akm.

 

The use of the m4 should not be controlled with ammo rarity but instead with controlling the spawn rate of its magazines and or the weapon itself. Having only a finite number of akms and m4s around the game world would be ideal.

 

Well if all you need to do, after you find M4, is to make 1 trip to barracks to get magazine and then you are free to roam anywhere while getting ammo restocked from civilian buildings, that does not seem right to me.

 

If 5,45x39 was introduced, that would be the round + 7,62x39, that I would expect to be more common in civilian buildings.

5,56 I feel should be rare in civilian areas, but I guess Devs don't want this, when they are adding CZ rifle in 5.56 caliber.

 

So yeah, I guess it will be more like you say, still I don't like that idea much. 

[Katana67 2907]

Not really because we also have to factor in the magazines.

 

You also need to remember having the ability to frequently stock up on an assault rifle only increases the utility and the allure of an m4 or akm.

 

The use of the m4 should not be controlled with ammo rarity but instead with controlling the spawn rate of its magazines and or the weapon itself. Having only a finite number of akms and m4s around the game world would be ideal.

 

Again, the rarity of it's use is dependent on all three factors - the rarity of the weapon spawning, the likelihood of finding a magazine, and the likelihood of being able to fill or refill that magazine with ammunition. Just looking at two of those factors doesn't give you a full picture of how it would actually play out in-game.

 

If the mod teaches us anything, it's that no matter how rare you make a weapon (even though, there are other factors which also play into this, like server hopping) that it will become pervasive if it is inconsequential to use.

 

I've used this example before, but I'll use it again. The DMR and/or M14 AIM. DMR mags spawned all over the place in the mod. Forget the common criticism of the weapon having "no recoil" and having a ridiculous rate-of-fire. DMR mags spawned in industrial buildings, damn near every town had a DMR mag laying about somewhere.

 

Weapons like the SVD and FAL suffered because of that, because they themselves were rarer... and, more significantly, their ammunition was rarer. Therefore making it unfeasible by comparison to arm/rearm these weapons over the DMR/M14. Just making the weapons rarer isn't a complete action. It has to be done in tandem with a myriad of factors, such as the ammunition for starters.

 

However, I do sort of see the merit in having something be rare... because it's easy to supply/maintain. But, if it's just as easy to supply/maintain as more common/effective weapons, we're stuck with the same problem as in the mod that I demonstrated above.

[Katana67 2907]

Well if all you need to do, after you find M4, is to make 1 trip to barracks to get magazine and then you are free to roam anywhere while getting ammo restocked from civilian buildings, that does not seem right to me.

 

If 5,45x39 was introduced, that would be the round + 7,62x39, that I would expect to be more common in civilian buildings.

5,56 I feel should be rare in civilian areas, but I guess Devs don't want this, when they are adding CZ rifle in 5.56 caliber.

 

So yeah, I guess it will be more like you say, still I don't like that idea much. 

 

I'd just rather the ammunition follow a general pattern (with certain exceptions, mostly in the case of LMGs) of corresponding to an overall weapon archetype. So you'd have 5.56x45 be the "NATO Assault Rifle" round.

 

Which is why I don't want 5.56x45 being used in the CZ 527, because they'll be repeating the ubiquity of the current 7.62x51 situation, in having it be applicable to a wide variety of differently tiered weapons. With 7.62x39, there's less of a hard gap in my mind, because it's sort of supplying the same weapons... which are more common, and by implication, the ammunition should be more common as well.

[TheWalrusNet 6]

I've always seen the CQB buttstock as slightly useful, well, more convenient than anything.

Say you're following a guy into a building, you both have m4's, yours has full pristine Magpul parts and shoots pretty much 100% accurately, his has a CQB stock and other terrible attachments, and thus very little accuracy.

you both meet each other at either end of a corridor, you fire a burst at him, but in the panic your aim is slightly off to the right, you miss every single shot.
He also panics, his aim slightly off to the left, but because of his wacky dispersion values he hits you 5-6 times, even though his aim was completely off.

 

Alternatively, if you didn't panic, and your aim was not off, you would hit him every single time, but i'd assume if CQB guy's aim wasn't off, the same would be true anyway in close quarters, it is unlikely he would miss any but a few shots too.

It's all theoretical, but that's what i'd assumed the increased dispersion was implemented for, not simply as a trade-off to the turn speed of the weapon, you would be more effective in close-quarter engagements not due to weapon advantage but perhaps not needing to fire so accurately, your quick turn speed and high spread allow you to fire at a whim, not taking to time to line up shots first.

[Pandema 352]

Knowing the devs. There will be several of the same handguard with cosmetic differences, and each handguard will affect the god awful dispersion mechanic in some way that has no bearing on reality.

[gibonez 3633]

Knowing the devs. There will be several of the same handguard with cosmetic differences, and each handguard will affect the god awful dispersion mechanic in some way that has no bearing on reality.

 

Truly wish they would just dump the attributes on accessories.

 

Make them purely cosmetic thats it none of this goofy RPG crap stats on items.

I thought they were going to dump it after the akm had no attachments that increased the accuracy.

The cz 527 however apparently has a magical dispersion reducing attachment.