Meeting the Hacker Within: A challenge to the Devs and the community.

[Space Milk 195]

That is properly interesting dude. And, yes, you're bang-on, I'm going from complete guess work, from a few brushes with hackers where I had very little chance to actually communicate with them. It's a whole lot better to actually hear about it from the horses mouth... Before writing the post I was thinking how little I really know about hackers, but I guess its information I'm not that keen to start browsing for, I don;t exactly trust hacker sites. I guess that's what frustrates me so much about the ban-hammer, its the fact that it's just 'end of discussion'... I don't mean it isn't needed, I don't mean I don't applaud it but part of me wants a minute to see if I can't find out why that dude just killed the server.

 

So, I'd be interested to know, do you think there is sometimes an in-game issue that sends virgin hackers off to find scripts? I mean, in your experience, is the idea of a chip on someones shoulder causing them to 'turn' just bollocks... Is that not something you've seen at all...?  

I guess what I'm fishing for is whether you'd have any suggestions to keep players on-side somehow before the ban hammer comes. I'm curious.

 

Well I never. Most unexpected.

 

I don't think there is any one "fix" we can introduce to help bring hackers or script kiddies (which what most people mean by hackers)  to the "light side."

If there is a solution, which I do not know, then it would be costly to implement, and may not work at all, or only for a tiny fraction of these guys.

It's the same thing with the prison system most countries have.  It is really the only catch all solution we have.  There is a better way, rehabilitation, but we don't know exactly how we can do it, and if it works for a fraction of the prisoners, if any at all.

 

 

 

PS:  Most hackers, especially script kiddies, are young people.  

TLDR, I can't give you a answer.  I realize why you made this topic, but I am going to tell you that no one has a solid idea what the solution is going to be.

Edited January 26, 2014 by Space Milk

[zhrike 264]

"Hacking" in the context of this thread is cheating. Period. Immature, insecure, and antisocial behavior. Cheating.

Enabling cheats to win is not fun. Unless you see "win at all costs and by any means" as a positive. Most (if not all) normal people do not.

Hacking in the context of programming has been bastardized. No one in the mainstream appears to knows what it originally meant: to hack code, and not poorly, just to change things for functional purposes. Richard Stallman is one of the people who originated the term, and he has been fighting a losing battle to reclaim its original meaning since.

Hacking in the context of network intrusion has also been bastardized. Script kiddies are called hackers. Idiots who use poor passwords and are the victims of account compromised are often considered to have been "hacked" by people who know fuck all about the context. They weren't hacked. People who get viruses "I was hacked." No, you weren't.

So stop muddying the issue. Cheaters are people who are broken in some way. I wasn't going to respond to this thread any further until I saw the Rust video by MaskedGamer yesterday.

The behavior exhibited there is typical of the types of personalities who cheat. Fuck cheaters and hackers. And, to the point of hackers who actually engage in enumeration and intrusion (I've been involved in this profession for decades), most of them also exhibit the same insecure, cowardly, immature behavior.

Do not encourage smart, creative people to engage in hacking, unless by hacking you mean programming, or perhaps white hat hacking (which is what hackers who aren't dicks, or who grow up, often become). They should get into coding, into the nuts and bolts of the program, how things work; also music, art, film, any one of a number of positive and constructive endeavors. Hacking and then using the knowledge gained/scripts built to cheat is antisocial.

Fuck cheats. Fuck all of them. I'd love to get those assholes into a room with no consequences. But then, that's the problem - they're weak, and they're cowards, and they can't fight fair, which is why they seek these advantages.

Poor players, or players who have been killed do not seek to hack, unless they already exhibit these traits. Unfortunately, many of them (traits) are endemic to youth, particularly teens.

Edited January 27, 2014 by Zhrike

[mangozapp 46]

Yup, I'll have a look at that vid shortly... But it was actually getting into Rust and then being repeatedly hacked (finding no-clippers had walking through my base's walls every time I logged out) that got me fired up and thinking about the possibility of this same thing happening with DayZ once the code gets out there. (Is that what happens? I ain't a clue how it works tbh.)

 

 Unfortunately, many of them (traits) are endemic to youth, particularly teens.

 

That is, I guess what I feel may be approached a little more sensitively: the natural tendencies of young, insecure players... Guys who are (mistakenly or otherwise) looking to find more than we might seek in playing video games - i.e. some genuine social status. These tendencies are very real and I think the way the industry pushes elitist, hierarchical thinking in it's products and doesn't seem to consider the (predominantly young, male, yet to prove themselves in life) audience's weaknesses is asking for backlash.

I'm going to start repeating myself if I'm not careful... But I think there could be a little more creative thinking on concessions that might be made in order to soften that elitist leaning drilled into the game-playing public. DayZ ain't an advocate of that ethos but, at the same time, it leaves the welcoming of new players completely to chance so that they might easily continue in that same elitist way of thinking when they enter Chernarus. If DayZ is to be different in that respect then I feel it needs to put itself forward a little, as a positive, forward thinking community or the old hierarchical precedent and the consequential backlash will, I feel, return through old association and swamp the game.

Not suggesting any real modifications in the game itself, the hero/bandit choices etc... But some kind of way to make sure new players meet the community before they fall into that same-old 'fuck him, I'm anonymous, I'm the best, he's shit' kind of thinking and start spreading that around the coastline.

 

Edie: vid watched... or most of it... Yeah, as you said, something is broken in these guys. The thing I fear is that these broken guys are so completely lacking in social etiquette because of complete game addiction/ no-life'ing... but hey, whatever it is, they're... well... Terribly pathetic, tragically misdirected individuals and no, in that case, they need something far more than an adjustment to the game to rehabilitate (probably their future wife leaving with the kids and a subsequent nervous breakdown..Oh well.) :( 

Edited January 27, 2014 by Harmonica

[zhrike 264]

I hear what you're saying, and I get it. I think I am going to repeat myself a bit: the game is not broken. It's not even finished, really - but I am lumping in the mod and this game together in my responses. It doesn't need a fix. Young players shouldn't be playing. It's an 18+ game. Do they? Yes. Are some mature, smart kids who get it? Yes. Do some adults get irrationally angry at the current state of the game (and same with the mod), and react poorly? Yes. But here is what will happen: they will evolve, or move on. Some of them might cheat, but they're cheaters.  They're going to cheat in life, too.
 

Guys who are (mistakenly or otherwise) looking to find more than we might seek in playing video games - i.e. some genuine social status. These tendencies are very real and I think the way the industry pushes elitist, hierarchical thinking in it's products and doesn't seem to consider the (predominantly young, male, yet to prove themselves in life) audience's weaknesses is asking for backlash.

 

I think elitist, hierarchical thinking derives from far more ubiquitous sources than video games. And I don't personally believe that either DayZ, Bohemia, or Dean Hall are pushing those ideals with this game. I don't think there is a responsibility to cater to each and every subset of human thought on the part of video game producers, aside from defining their audience and releasing it accordingly. The same goes for many other producers of content. All in all that quoted piece that I included calls for a much broader context than a single video game, but I do see how it relates.

Private hives will solve a lot of the issues you raise. People will create servers, whitelist them, make them private, define a set of rules, and players will be able to look for the environments that best suit their styles of play ... and in some cases, their styles of play at that particular moment. At the same time, some people will play the game and be repeatedly murdered, and some will find friends on the coastline, and that's what makes the game spectacular. It's totally unpredictable.

Edited January 28, 2014 by Zhrike

[fart11eleven 5]

False premises. Hackers are not a product of our society, i think it is within their nature to do so. I have watched hackers now long enough to understand, that these kind of people are potential murderes; it is the same kick they get from destroying others fun than sadistically murdering someone. And you might think that it is cool to be feared; well, i don't give a damn about your life full of fear and no innovation; all i see in a hacker is disgust of humanity. Video game hacking is special here, because it is seemingly not that much of a matter; i mean common, it is just a video game, right? Well, that is wrong. I can assure you, that this is just a matter of personal value system. If you get bored of some thing, you do not value it. And here is the difference then between hackers and potential murderers, and normal people. Normal peopel just move on, hackers get a kick out of destroying others, for whatever reason. To find out that reason is probably also a matter of intellect; i can assure you most hackers are not very smart. They can not distinguish different cases, and between well deserved vengeance and violence and random violence. They would say the random violence is well deserved, because either for their ego, or for real (like, they actually relieve their real life stress or problems with this). That is why i think online gaming hacking is a great indicator of potential murderes. Mark my words.

[mangozapp 46]

False premises. Hackers are not a product of our society, i think it is within their nature to do so. 

I think you may be going in a bit strong with the murderer bit... but, possibly, maybe, in some (hopefully) rare cases you may not be too far from the truth. I recently read a (newly published) book: The Psychopath Test by Jon Ronson which your thoughts brought to mind again. In this book he explores the debate in psychology around psychopathy and specifically a test, basically a list of check points, to determine if somebody is a hac... HA!... Whoa!... A psychopath.

 

(This thread is going into some pretty curious territory that may or may not be 'on topic' but, hey, it seems a valid exploration of an issue that effects many of us, if an Admin thinks it needs to be moved to an off-topic section then so be it.)

 

Back to the psychopath test... I have taken the list below from here. In the test (or interview with the person in question) a score is derived accessing the persons leaning on those points in question. Please understand, I am posting this as an exploratory device, though I have a longstanding interest in this field I am not a psychologist and, personally, I have serious doubts about categorizing an entire person's being and future capability on the basis of an interview with a shrink. Anyway, the list of traits associated with a psychopath which are accessed in this test are:

• glib and superficial charm,
• grandiosity
• need for stimulation
• pathological lying
• cunning and manipulating,
• lack of remorse
• callousness
• poor behavioral controls
• impulsiveness
• irresponsibility
• denial
• parasitic lifestyle
• sexual promiscuity
• early behavior problems
• lack of realistic long-term goals
• failure to accept responsibility for own actions
• many short-term marital relationships
• juvenile delinquency
• revocation of conditional release
• criminal versatility

The main underlying trait, in my understanding, which leads to these behavior patterns is that psychopaths are incapable of empathising with another person. One of the example given in the above book regards passing a car crash, according to current understanding, when a psychopath wintnesses something like this he/she will not be disturbed in the slightest, they will look on the devastation, the mutilation as I might observe an interesting science experiment.

Its a scale, on the other end of it are neurotic people who overly empathise and may be subject to a kind of social paralysis as a result. To put that in context, I think, possibly, I lean toward that end of the spectrum - i.e. I have a tendency toward focusing myself too much on what other people are feeling or suffering and, in the process of that I often neglect to state my own position or fail to equate how a situation is effecting me, sounds nice but it creates problems later on when I 'rewind' and possibly find I've not adequately expressed my own dissatisfaction etc.

Anyway. Yup. I have wondered about this. According to Jon Ronson's book Phsycopaths are not nearly as rare as we think they are some statistics show that in the US 1 in every 100 people could be categorized a psychopath (1 in 200 in th UK apparently) [statistics... I don't trust them, but hey]. They are not all murderers either, far from it, some are extremely successful people in the eyes of society - they do not suffer those empathetic tendencies which may otherwise stop someone from stepping on their piers on the way 'to the top'. They are also often charismatic, charming individuals until you're on the wrong side of them.

One thing of interest is that, apparently, these character types have been noted for gravitating towards the social hub of their society - due to their need for stimulation - i.e. They're generally not found living out in the sticks but instead they move into the capital city where they can more successfully satisfy their social needs. In that respect I can't help but think that PC gaming offers an immediate social hub and platform for these kind of characters to seek satisfaction. A highly successful game is a capital city of a kind and for many young men today, for gamers a top title is their social proving ground - the hub of their culture, and, yes, a game offers potentially limitless stimulation, potential to dominate and control. 

Winding this up... Following my own recent experience with Rust I couldn't help but feel that something was happening that went beyond the boundaries of a 'game'. I felt there was a desire on the part of these cheaters/hackers/script-kiddies to impose themselves on me with their actions in a very personal way. That feeling meant that I found myself reluctant to engage with them as I might a simple bandit. I got the distinct feeling that if I attempted to challenge them I might find myself pursued. I didn't give that feeling too much credit but it was there, that feeling that I might just find myself on the end of a hate-mail campaign or something else of that sort. 

Lastly, there is a particularly troubling theory that psychopaths, that 1% (that often reaches the top of their fields in political and business circles) have an influence on society that is completely out of proportion i.e. their ethics are so far removed from that of their 'polite' piers (the underdogs) that that their traits become the dominant. I guess that is what I have been incidentally attempting to bring up here - the negative traits of some players are so dominating in the minds of many players that they get taken along with that current. They don't really notice the fact that 99 players acted normally but they cannot forget that 1 player/clan that utterly degraded and belittled them. So it's in that respect that I have been wishing to explore ways for the 'Mr Nices' of DayZ to put themselves forward a little more 'aggressively'. That isn't a natural thing for these players/community members to do but without it I feel that 1% will dominate the horizon for new players.

Here endeth the lesson :blush:   

[zhrike 264]

I find the issue fascinating and have read a number of books on the subject. I've not read Ronson's yet, as I thought he was a little flippant about the subject in interviews I've seen. I still plan on reading it, though.

The Psychopath Test derives from the work of this man, primarily (as well as teams of his grad students), and here is a great book:

Without Conscience by Robert Hare , Ph.D.

I've also read the seminal book on the subject. It's dated, but still very interesting, and available for free digitally:

The Mask Of Sanity

Link to PDF version of book.

I've also recently read this one, though I was underwhelmed:

The Sociopath Next Door

[fart11eleven 5]

Yeah, the psychopath theory. I think it is just a buzzword in modern society; i mean, everyone wants to be a psychopath anyway, because it is cool; i get it; psychopaths, yeah "i don't give a shit" yeah yeah i am so cool and all that blah. You could call pretty much all Bronce citicens psychopaths then, because there is this ubermind controlling them; there is no way out. So i rather think it is a meme, which comes from naturally deseased people; most people just adapt then; and thus the world goes poisened. That last point real psychopaths probably will not understand, because i am sure they do not want to live by themselves in a world full of destruction; thus it is actually nothing more than exploiting and acting like a parasite. Psychopaths are the real desease of this world; and online gaming is a perfect playing ground for them; because they think the online world does not matter anyway; well, what happens if i value your life as "doesn't matter"; think about it. It is actually a desease; but then again, it is aposterio. Actually apriori vs aposterio. Real question: can we ever get rid of them? Considering that genes spread over generations this would probably take a long long time and probably only be possible by recognition (tests) and popluation control.

 

And herby i totally brought this thread into the abyss :)

 

P.S. what a psychopath probably will never understand: what will happen if everybody acts the same way as he/she? It would be such a violent and ugly world, no? A psychopath hopes to exploit the behavior of others. The only solution would be pain AKA we all turn into psychopaths: let us see what the world looks like then; probably even better for the world (debatable what "world wants"), because then there would be immediate thermonuclear war .... or wouldn't it? Probably not, there are unfortunately also smart psychopaths ... understanding their "exploit nature" .... but they are not smart enough to understand what would happen if everybody would act like them. So the only solution is probably to show them themselves what they are AKA inflict pain on them the same way they do on others they seek to exploit. But this would lead into a such uncomfortable and uneccessary world; this is why i think a resource base economy would be best for us all; not that shit we have now today ( a dream world for psychopaths which could't give more sh!t) .... putting that into the dayz online-gaming world: we would all need to become hackers. The same way as bycicle sports actually; a complete joke HAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA really men, this is so fucked up to think about ....

Edited January 30, 2014 by fart11eleven

[mangozapp 46]

So the only solution is probably to show them themselves what they are AKA inflict pain on them the same way they do on others they seek to exploit. 

...I need bed. But yes indeed sir, it is a super-bumper-bonus can of worms this one... And it's taking over my life at a worrying rate.

 

The quote I've snipped from your post... This article, specifically the findings of a test described under the final section titled "It Shouldn't Work That Way" pretty much throws the idea of 'teaching them a lesson' clean out of the window. But we're discussing psychopaths here, not hackers/cheaters/script-kiddies etc. etc.

(Best be clear on that until we've got one of those handcuffed on the beach alongside Hannibal Lecter and have performed some comparative testing involving a red button and a bottle of detergent...  And published a peer reviewed paper proving incontrovertibly that all cheaters are in fact psychopaths.  ...And have BattlEye linked directly to Bridgewater State Hospital's front desk.)   :o

 

And fear not, this thread was born from the abyss! Thup, thup, thup. [that's Lecteresque lip licking]

 

EDIT: Lecteresque lip licking - try saying that three times quickly.

Edited January 31, 2014 by Harmonica

[Trigger Hippy 176]

Personally, I'm convinved Frankie hacks. Too many years of experience spotting and catching hackers to let that one go...and too many other players whose opinions I respect (not the kind to going around throwing hackusations about) have come to the same conclusion. Either that or has developed eyesight which is far superior to any other human I have met and has developed a 6th sense which even works on the digital world.

Edited January 31, 2014 by Trigger Hippy

[mangozapp 46]

Personally, I'm convinved Frankie hacks.

Me too, its quite clear. However I view his hacking in those videos as something quite different from normal 'vandalistic' cheating. This is my own opinion on the matter and I quite accept and understand if it isn't shared:

Frankies focus, I think, was in creating good video's. He was using DayZ as his film set. He is clearly quite capable of playing extremely well without any artificial assistance, he's a high level pro games player, he's likely sponsored by games companies etc. to promote their games. I think he was though making these videos for fun as an amateur film maker.

Fact is, he is incredibly fast and accurate - look at his BF4 vids they're just ridiculous - I don't see an aim-bot in his DayZ series, only god-mode. However, I suspect that he suffered frustration when first attempting to create these 'films' due to the fact that if he did die he would then lose the plot and usefulness of the story he had previously built. i.e. he helps someone out, they tell him of a bandit clan, they find a vehicle, travel across the map (hours of play)... they find the bandit camp... And then he dies by glitching into a tree - that was very common in the mod and would be a complete non-ending for his film. ...And by the time he got back to the camp half the clan would have logged off etc. One important factor that new DayZ players coming in for the Standalone won't realise is that the mod was at that time extremely buggy. 9/10 times you died by a glitch.

 

So I think he made the decision to hack in order to have a good chance of seeing his in-game character's story through to a satisfying end - I think it was likely to also be a decision based on time constraints - he could have got the story he wanted anyway but it might have taken him three days of play to get his footage and he had his studies. 

 

I've worked in the media and so I guess, personally, I respect the fact that he prioritised his story over 'reality'... his real interest being building the story, developing his player interaction and commentary skills, editing the footage, finding music... etc. etc. - seeing how far he could go with these films. That all means his actual in-game character is an actor. Again, he is good enough to go it alone but you just can't make a film if your lead actor gets killed and you have to re-shoot the entire film every time you do a car chase.  So for me disregarding him on that basis is much like saying "Sylvester Stallone is full of s***, all the boxing scenes in Rocky are fake!" ...like: "David Blane is bullshit, his levitation is fake!" Of course they're fakes, they're entertainers.

Yes, all this might of meant some players were killed that might have walked away but, personally, I think the quality of his videos outweighs those 'casualties' - besides, they got their five minutes of fame :). Also, we just don't know, in those early videos the entire server may have known what was going on and been involved in it - actors themselves - who knows..?

Edited January 31, 2014 by Harmonica

[B.a.r.r.e.t 20]

Call to connect to the BattIEye experimental branch, seen foul play player appeared and disappeared in different rooms of the SKS killing people. All those who died could not charge your weapon. Such foul play was today on the server SE-05 regular at 05:40 Moscow time

[mangozapp 46]

Call to connect to the BattIEye experimental branch, seen foul play player appeared and disappeared in different rooms of the SKS killing people. All those who died could not charge your weapon. Such foul play was today on the server SE-05 regular at 05:40 Moscow time

I'm on the mother f***er.

[B.a.r.r.e.t 20]

Harmonica! Your comment you made ​​me laugh)) :)

[fart11eleven 5]

This article, specifically the findings of a test described under the final section titled "It Shouldn't Work That Way" pretty much throws the idea of 'teaching them a lesson' clean out of the window.

 

It is the only solution :D Either just kill them (as can be seen by the death penalty in some countries) or just let them be (which means: all the rest of society has to live with it AKA the tendency; of course there are different variations of it).

 

And yop: my personal believe is that most of these people have gone through generations of suffereing, social traumas, etc, and that in their genes is encoded this information and thus the natural desire to just be a damn asshole. And i do not mean that cool asshole we all know, i mean a true "mean mother" .. wait ... no i don't mean that one either, i mean the films show us it is cool to be that "mean mother", right? Don't you wanna be that damn asshole fin up everyone in the films? Damn culture, i mean we play a video game pretending to kill each other :D :P

 

It is pretty much a meme, which over generations has encoded its information on our genes. Pretty much starting from the early phases of evolution where we still were small bacterias swimming in the ocean ... but the question is: how did that meme get there at first place ... :P

Edited February 1, 2014 by fart11eleven

[mangozapp 46]

 And i do not mean that cool asshole we all know, i mean a true "mean mother" .. wait ... no i don't mean that one either, i mean the films show us it is cool to be that "mean mother", right? 

:D  ...most assholes are full of shit. But, yeah, it takes some folks a while to work that out.   

[dvsilverwing 241]

DayZ has already started off on a good foot by not claiming to be unhackable before even releasing the game. WarZ lel

Edited February 2, 2014 by dvsilverwing

[fart11eleven 5]

:D  ...most assholes are full of shit. But, yeah, it takes some folks a while to work that out.   

 

Yop. Most psycholige focuses on just empirics (is that a word in english?; i mean the thing where you get evil by experience). I just do not think this is true. Genes are still pretty much unkown to us all, and i think there is an evil gene, which gets even more evil, the more generations before you in your same bloodline have experienced "shit"; "social shit", "traumas". Because i am pretty much a guy who has never had the urge to hack in any way, because i think it is just lame and boring. What is the point anyway? And there come the other psychopaths probably telling you that they were bored of the original gameplay and thus tried to entertain themself by pain of others or simply getting a kick out of doing hacking.

 

Do you know that feeling when you have hack-killed someone? Most folks will feel bad, but there is the psychopaths getting a kick out of this. Probably the feeling in normal people, which tells them to have remorse, turns into the opposite in them, because they hate society norms and common "feeling". It is purely an emotional thing as well.

 

Ew, whateffs :)

[B.a.r.r.e.t 20]

It is the only solution :D Either just kill them (as can be seen by the death penalty in some countries) or just let them be (which means: all the rest of society has to live with it AKA the tendency; of course there are different variations of it).

 

And yop: my personal believe is that most of these people have gone through generations of suffereing, social traumas, etc, and that in their genes is encoded this information and thus the natural desire to just be a damn asshole. And i do not mean that cool asshole we all know, i mean a true "mean mother" .. wait ... no i don't mean that one either, i mean the films show us it is cool to be that "mean mother", right? Don't you wanna be that damn asshole fin up everyone in the films? Damn culture, i mean we play a video game pretending to kill each other :D :P

 

It is pretty much a meme, which over generations has encoded its information on our genes. Pretty much starting from the early phases of evolution where we still were small bacterias swimming in the ocean ... but the question is: how did that meme get there at first place ... :P

For me this game DayZ like another world in which I live as it is impossible to live in the real world, and I would like that the game was all right. What would nebilo hackers)

[mangozapp 46]

For me this game DayZ like another world in which I live as it is impossible to live in the real world, and I would like that the game was all right. What would nebilo hackers)

I'm sorry to hear that dude, I don't know a lot about it but Russia doesn't sound like a very easy place to be right now (welcome to capitalism). I think many gamers play for this reason or something similar, hard-core gamers anyway. I played far too much last year for this reason myself. 

The sad thing I see now is that we make the in-game world pretty much the same as the one we're running from - we import the frustrations we feel in real life into the game world and take them out on other gamers. You feel like you've been fucked over in real life so you go and fuck someone up in-game to feel a bit more powerful. Obviously that is a massive simplification of a very complex problem, everyone has their own reasons and difficulties...

 

Scientifically, I think I can say simulators were invented to test out previously untested interactions in a safe way - Is that what is happening in DayZ...? I don't think so, we're just doing the exact same things we've always done - re-running what we already know... 

 

...I know I feel a great dissatisfaction with the way the world is right now, politically etc. I feel more and more people feel the same way and are questioning the old rules - Mr Big getting all the beans...etc. So there are a lot of people looking for something different, a different way of operating socially - they're sick and tired of the shit they have to put up with; the shit they're asked to accept in the 'real' world. That's what I feel makes the 'escape' that games can offer so attractive. BUT, I feel that 'escape' idea is an out-dated attitude to gaming - a game like DayZ is a simulated world but it's actually populated by real people and so it should not be looked at purely as an escape. The fact is there is, there is a real culture of real people here and we're really meeting in-game when we play together. That, I think, is proved by the very real hatred that hackers inspire in a player.

 

So I have a wish to see more gamers doing something different: Actually using the safe-zone that this simulation offers to try something new - instead of just continually repeating all the bullshit we see in the real world and thus making the game world just another place to fuck each other up... Just a place where we can reverse the old rolls and give the shit instead of receiving it... Whichever way round the exchange is going, the fact is it's still just the same old stinking piece of shit that we're throwing back and forth.

 

I can't help but think that there is a possibility in these games to drop that stuff and create a culture that we actually like, something we can be genuinely proud of; something new, something better - we might actually use this technology, all this time we have to waste, to teach ourselves to interact in a different way... And while we're doing it stick a big finger up at those rich, tired old men that think they know how the world works. And if we have the balls to do that, we might be able to take that new way back out and into the 'real world'. There is an opportunity there, I feel, just waiting for someone to recognize it. ...Well its been said now... the choice is yours, continue spreading the shit or try something new?

 

That's obviously a very idealistic vision... But it is happening in some ways already - the diplomatic way these games are developed - half a million people giving their suggestions, working to find something that satisfies them; that's something very new I think. I know the games companies may be using this approach simply for profit reasons but, all the same, something new is happening... maybe. Or, at least, it could happen. What is there to lose? We're playing anyway, nobody really gets hurt. Personally, I would find it much more interesting in-game to be exploring these kind of social things (yes, at the same time as playing DayZ) rather than being able to predict pretty easily what everybody is going to do -  shoot first and ask questions later....Trying to become as powerful as we can so we can feed off other players. It's not exactly creative thinking... Once you've played for a while, as I have (understatement of the year), well, that gets pretty dull - I'm a good shot, well whoopy-do! Yes, you do see a little creative thought happening when the game is new but having watched the mod's evolution, I know that after a couple of months those interesting interactions will get thrown out and pretty much everyone will return to the same old strategies - bandits and heroes - cowboys and Indians.

 

I suppose I am a little disappointed with the games companies, with the Dev team and Bohemia for seemingly feeding the lowest common denominator... It puzzled me the way there was so much talk about reducing KOS and pushing something more interesting but then when it came out... What had changed? A load more military bases... What are the best clothes? Military clothes... What is the best weapon? Every red-neck's wet dream: the M4A1... It kind of said "Yeah, sorry guys but this gun-ho shit makes money, and hey everybody loves the US army right...? Everybody wishes they were a soldier right...?" For those of us who actually find that whole military museum thing a bit f***ing dull (to say the least) it was like "Ah. OK, right... So its back to KOS then... Its a Military Simulator with a few zombies thrown in."

 

Bit of a wasted opportunity in my opinion.... And now most players have gone with that idea they've been fed, they've become focused on the warfare aspect, on making themselves as dangerous as possible... we've been hooked back into that mentality. While that mentality is actually being fed by the Dev team (though they maybe don't realise it) there's very little room for any more interesting things to happen: the Arma Mil-sim community will dominate. The sad truth is, a lot of those guys don't have the imagination to realise that something else could actually be far more interesting for them...  "I want my M107 Mummy!" ...So they'll rubbish any ideas that threaten the easy fix they've be given.

 

...Sheesh... I'm inviting a lot of shit for writing that... But hey, I don't really expect anyone to actually think... We're the guys who sit at home playing games right? We're the guys that never quite made it... You can't expect us to think! Lets just grab whatever we can to take away the boredom... Leave the real world for the very real men with their very real rifles - the ones that leave foot-soldier's completely unable to relate to their wives, families and friends back home... the ones that leave them crawling about under the office tables when they get back from the front... AKA my Grandfather, Lt. Andrew Watson GM of the Lancashire Fusiliers - Battle of Kohima veteran: 

Relevant? You tell me.

            ...I do know this is the real world... and I'd prefer DayZ offered a real escape from it.... Rather than this thinly veiled mil-sim we're getting now.

 

My personal effort to find an alternative: http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/170411-sil-subject-test-16/

 

P.S. B.A.R.R.E.T - Nebilo...? Struggling with that word... Try again dude.

Edited February 4, 2014 by Harmonica

[mangozapp 46]

...ach, why did that double post...? And why can't I delete a post? Hmm. 

Edited February 4, 2014 by Harmonica

[B.a.r.r.e.t 20]

I'm sorry to hear that dude, I don't know a lot about it but Russia doesn't sound like a very easy place to be right now (welcome to capitalism). I think many gamers play for this reason or something similar, hard-core gamers anyway. I played far too much last year for this reason myself. 

The sad thing I see now is that we make the in-game world pretty much the same as the one we're running from - we import the frustrations we feel in real life into the game world and take them out on other gamers. You feel like you've been fucked over in real life so you go and fuck someone up in-game to feel a bit more powerful. Obviously that is a massive simplification of a very complex problem, everyone has their own reasons and difficulties...

 

Scientifically, I think I can say simulators were invented to test out previously untested interactions in a safe way - Is that what is happening in DayZ...? I don't think so, we're just doing the exact same things we've always done - re-running what we already know... 

 

...I know I feel a great dissatisfaction with the way the world is right now, politically etc. I feel more and more people feel the same way and are questioning the old rules - Mr Big getting all the beans...etc. So there are a lot of people looking for something different, a different way of operating socially - they're sick and tired of the shit they have to put up with; the shit they're asked to accept in the 'real' world. That's what I feel makes the 'escape' that games can offer so attractive. BUT, I feel that 'escape' idea is an out-dated attitude to gaming - a game like DayZ is a simulated world but it's actually populated by real people and so it should not be looked at purely as an escape. The fact is there is, there is a real culture of real people here and we're really meeting in-game when we play together. That, I think, is proved by the very real hatred that hackers inspire in a player.

 

So I have a wish to see more gamers doing something different: Actually using the safe-zone that this simulation offers to try something new - instead of just continually repeating all the bullshit we see in the real world and thus making the game world just another place to fuck each other up... Just a place where we can reverse the old rolls and give the shit instead of receiving it... Whichever way round the exchange is going, the fact is it's still just the same old stinking piece of shit that we're throwing back and forth.

 

I can't help but think that there is a possibility in these games to drop that stuff and create a culture that we actually like, something we can be genuinely proud of; something new, something better - we might actually use this technology, all this time we have to waste, to teach ourselves to interact in a different way... And while we're doing it stick a big finger up at those rich, tired old men that think they know how the world works. And if we have the balls to do that, we might be able to take that new way back out and into the 'real world'. There is an opportunity there, I feel, just waiting for someone to recognize it. ...Well its been said now... the choice is yours, continue spreading the shit or try something new?

 

That's obviously a very idealistic vision... But it is happening in some ways already - the diplomatic way these games are developed - half a million people giving their suggestions, working to find something that satisfies them; that's something very new I think. I know the games companies may be using this approach simply for profit reasons but, all the same, something new is happening... maybe. Or, at least, it could happen. What is there to lose? We're playing anyway, nobody really gets hurt. Personally, I would find it much more interesting in-game to be exploring these kind of social things (yes, at the same time as playing DayZ) rather than being able to predict pretty easily what everybody is going to do -  shoot first and ask questions later....Trying to become as powerful as we can so we can feed off other players. It's not exactly creative thinking... Once you've played for a while, as I have (understatement of the year), well, that gets pretty dull - I'm a good shot, well whoopy-do! Yes, you do see a little creative thought happening when the game is new but having watched the mod's evolution, I know that after a couple of months those interesting interactions will get thrown out and pretty much everyone will return to the same old strategies - bandits and heroes - cowboys and Indians.

 

I suppose I am a little disappointed with the games companies, with the Dev team and Bohemia for seemingly feeding the lowest common denominator... It puzzled me the way there was so much talk about reducing KOS and pushing something more interesting but then when it came out... What had changed? A load more military bases... What are the best clothes? Military clothes... What is the best weapon? Every red-neck's wet dream: the M4A1... It kind of said "Yeah, sorry guys but this gun-ho shit makes money, and hey everybody loves the US army right...? Everybody wishes they were a soldier right...?" For those of us who actually find that whole military museum thing a bit f***ing dull (to say the least) it was like "Ah. OK, right... So its back to KOS then... Its a Military Simulator with a few zombies thrown in."

 

Bit of a wasted opportunity in my opinion.... And now most players have gone with that idea they've been fed, they've become focused on the warfare aspect, on making themselves as dangerous as possible... we've been hooked back into that mentality. While that mentality is actually being fed by the Dev team (though they maybe don't realise it) there's very little room for any more interesting things to happen: the Arma Mil-sim community will dominate. The sad truth is, a lot of those guys don't have the imagination to realise that something else could actually be far more interesting for them...  "I want my M107 Mummy!" ...So they'll rubbish any ideas that threaten the easy fix they've be given.

 

...Sheesh... I'm inviting a lot of shit for writing that... But hey, I don't really expect anyone to actually think... We're the guys who sit at home playing games right? We're the guys that never quite made it... You can't expect us to think! Lets just grab whatever we can to take away the boredom... Leave the real world for the very real men with their very real rifles - the ones that leave foot-soldier's completely unable to relate to their wives, families and friends back home... the ones that leave them crawling about under the office tables when they get back from the front... AKA my Grandfather, Lt. Andrew Watson GM of the Lancashire Fusiliers - Battle of Kohima veteran: 

Relevant? You tell me.

            ...I do know this is the real world... and I'd prefer DayZ offered a real escape from it.... Rather than this thinly veiled mil-sim we're getting now.

 

My personal effort to find an alternative: http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/170411-sil-subject-test-16/

 

P.S. B.A.R.R.E.T - Nebilo...? Struggling with that word... Try again dude.

This fucking Google translator does not give me to understand you dude (())