Why Mouse Acceleration and Responsiveness desperately needs Fixing

[Mutonizer 78]

If a bit of body control is present and if the bag does not dangle as loosely as a school bag, this is definately not the case.

Also, most guns are not as heavy as many people think. A fully loaded stock M4 weighs 3.4 kilograms. If you have weights at home, try turning around with 3.4 kilograms in your hand. The rotation speed is barely not affected. Especially if you hold a gun like it should be held (with strained muscles and a rather safe grip).

 

The heavy weight of the bag also does not influence the neck movement speed. No weight is resting on the top of your head, except maybe a light helmet or bandana. You should be able to look around faster than aim, but limiting your view on the direction of your arms instead of your face does not make sense.

 

Why are humans so underestimated? We have been walking and running around our whole lives, using our feet, turning around is not "difficult footwork".

 

And seeing that even without a bag and a gun, these controls are so clunky, i think there will have to be applied quite a bit of tweaking before full release.

 

 

Slight tweaks are good and probably in the works. Some of the body movement can be clunky but usually it's because don't understand how it works and try to control their character like they control other FPS games and when they see that there is no perfect precision to everything they do...they think there's a problem.

To me, that's not a problem, that's the closest to perfect solution to such a game. Sure it could be improved, but what can't right?

 

Also, 3.4kg isn't about weight, it's about inertia. If you apply a great burst of energy to move 3.4kg in a very short amount of time, that energy will have to go somewhere and usually that somewhere has to be met with another burst of energy to prevent inertia or it'll go flying. If you put 3.5kg in your hands (as if holding a gun raised and aiming forward) and rotate exactly 180° at full speed and keep a straight aim, your muscles will work hard to stop the rotation and without some kind of training (usually through repetition) your aim will be way off...

However, if you do it slower, the energy will be minimal for both the rotation and the inertia blocking and the aim will be stable and constant.

 

Now put a trekking backpack on your back with 50-60 pounds of gear in it. Even with proper packing & strapping (which are skills, most people have no idea how to do that), if you rotate full speed 180°, the energy needed to just stabilize will be crazy and people who never really tried it before will most likely fall down on their butt or go flying across the room.

 

Also as a note, the human body actually suck balls. Our skin is pierced easily, we don't have any natural defenses or camouflage, our reproduction system sucks and the list goes on and on. We're awesome because of our brain (and thumbs), not our body :)

 

 

That said, I agree that there needs to be some tweaks to the system. I'm hoping for a weight system that will "act" on the mouse movement/acceleration. The more you carry, the more it's felt but if you are in light clothing and no backpack, you'll get more stability/smoothness. Overall however, I feel that my head movement (ALT) in DayZ is perfect and doesn't feel clunky whatsoever, on the contrary. Can be ultra fast when needed though less precise, or slow and very accurate! For the body, I'm used to it so I know how it behaves...

[27 others 102]

Some very good and interesting points in that post, Mutonizer. 

 

Some of the body movement can be clunky but usually it's because don't understand how it works and try to control their character like they control other FPS games and when they see that there is no perfect precision to everything they do...they think there's a problem.

 

I know the devs of Arma tried to do it more realistic. But it seems they did not have the capacities to fulfill that dream of realism, which led to a less responsive (as in registering the actions of the player), not really more realistic, but restricting, and less fun movement system.

with the mouse, you basically just move your chest. you are not able to move your torso and your head at the same time.

 

Max Payne 3 had the most realistic shooting physics i have ever experienced. They captured hundreds of animations for simulating arm movement. Yes, bullet time and jumping is unrealistic, but we are talking about the general shooting mechanics.

 

Watch from 0.58 onwards

 

"maintaining full responsiveness, without sacrificing realistic character movement"

 

The shooting in Max Payne 3 is fun, realistic, fluid, and not CoD-esque.

 

Also, 3.4kg isn't about weight, it's about inertia. If you apply a great burst of energy to move 3.4kg in a very short amount of time, that energy will have to go somewhere and usually that somewhere has to be met with another burst of energy to prevent inertia or it'll go flying. If you put 3.5kg in your hands (as if holding a gun raised and aiming forward) and rotate exactly 180° at full speed and keep a straight aim, your muscles will work hard to stop the rotation and without some kind of training (usually through repetition) your aim will be way off...

Now put a trekking backpack on your back with 50-60 pounds of gear in it. Even with proper packing & strapping (which are skills, most people have no idea how to do that), if you rotate full speed 180°, the energy needed to just stabilize will be crazy and people who never really tried it before will most likely fall down on their butt or go flying across the room.

 

I just loaded my backpack with 40 pounds of dumb bell weights, and tried to turn around . 50-60 pounds is wayy to overexaggerated. The biggest backpack in the game has 35 slots. Most things you pack are cans of sardines, bandages, clothing, vitamin bottles and such stuff. You can do the math. I strapped it tight and tried to turn around quickly. I did not fall on my ass. The backpack is heavy, but was not even close to throwing me off balance.

 

In a right turn, you put all your weight on the right leg and swing the other one around with a tiny little jump. You make a tight "v" with your right arm, gripping the handle, then your loose left arm swings after and steadies the aim after the spin is completed. If you do this in a tight rotation movement, you sure as hell are way faster than in DayZ.

 

The inertia forces are not applied that much, since from beginning of the rotation movement, until the point you see the threat, there is no necessity to "keep the M4 at a straight aim". ONLY when the turn is almost finished, you raise the gun. And you know when that turn has to be finished way before this moment, because your neck movement is preceding your arm movement. (If you have trouble imagining this, look at the pictures in the end of my first post in this thread :) )

 

I felt some inertia forces DO apply, the backpack HAS an effect. Tho, this effect is easily liquidated by the right leg which you stomp on the ground.

 

 

Also as a note, the human body actually suck balls. Our skin is pierced easily, we don't have any natural defenses or camouflage, our reproduction system sucks and the list goes on and on. 

 

 

Yes, you are right. I was only referring to footwork there.

Edited January 5, 2014 by 27 others

[csharp 47]

That is something i would like to test, 180 irl, but i think i'll wait till my fiance goes to work, she would think i'm crazy if i'm rolling around in our living room with rifle :P

[27 others 102]

yeah if somebody would just have seen me through the window he would have called a psychiatrist haha

[Mutonizer 78]

yeah if somebody would just have seen me through the window he would have called a psychiatrist haha

 

Haha. It's an interesting test however :)

 

As for Max Payne 3, yea, it's quite fun (though not really my style of games) but come on, it's TOTALLY unrealistic! The guy fires a DE.50 (one handed!!) with constant pixel perfect accuracy while running around AND being fired at from everywhere!

It's like his gun arm is not even connected to his body nor affected by the laws of physics :)

Edited January 5, 2014 by Mutonizer

[27 others 102]

Max Payne 3 is not a realistic game. It`s mouse- and bodymovement, however, TOTALLY are. And that was the only thing i focused on.

 

pixel-accuracy and gun-physics-wise, you are correct. Arma has more realistic gun physics, as well as pixel accuracy. Notice how when you sprint in Arma 2, your crosshair starts wobbling all over the place? This should also be implemented when a quick mouse motion is taking place, instead of just punishing fast mouse movements with barely no response.

 

I want my mouse to control the head of the player primarily, and the weapon secondarily.

Edited January 5, 2014 by 27 others

[Mutonizer 78]

Max Payne 3 is not a realistic game. It`s mouse- and bodymovement, however, TOTALLY are. And that was the only thing i focused on.

 

pixel-accuracy and gun-physics-wise, you are correct. Arma has more realistic gun physics, as well as pixel accuracy. Notice how when you sprint in Arma 2, your crosshair starts wobbling all over the place? This should also be implemented when a quick mouse motion is taking place, instead of just punishing fast mouse movements with barely no response.

 

Yea the body movement is quite cool, but I think the fluidity comes from the fact that it doesn't matter whatsoever in game since it could a stick that just floats in the air and the gun gameplay would be exactly the same. It's just fluffy animations (and nice ones at that) but they are completely irrelevant to game-play.

 

In ARMA, your arms are actually connected to your body and they react to it's movement (in a somewhat clunky way as mentioned). Do you play with DeadZone activated? Quite helpful in getting arms movement without body movement though the actual ratio is very personal I think.

 

In any case, I think we both agree it can be vastly improved overall, and hopefully it'll be. As to the actual "improvements" needed however, we might not agree on :)

[eviltoast499 7]

Moving around with full gear for real is clunky, go load a large bag with heavy gear and try to spin on the spot quickly, like in an FPS game.....the bag will completly throw your balance and you will probably end up on your ass. That dosent even take into account the gun weight and the footwork involved in a 180 to a stable firing position.

 

Why do you think the mouselook is in any way natural? Do you not have your own pair of legs, or perhaps you're not a human or something? Are you a fish? It is not hard to turn around or navigate through tight areas when you're carrying a bag of equipment. The last time I've had to do something similar was hiking through the appalachian trails with a 50+ pound bag on my back every day, the only thing made more difficult was walking up steep hills. I didn't end up staring up or down from turning around too quickly like the current mouse-movement in dayz, how does something like that even make sense? You can have no gear whatsoever in the standalone and the mouse movement is still clunky. This problem wasn't in the dayz mod and it sure as hell doesn't exist in Arma 3 because it's obviously bad design. Like I mentioned, throughout the mods development there has always been some unintuitive things popping up with controls or inventory or whatever, and you can bet there's always been some dude on these forums claiming it should be a feature. Makes me scratch my head.   

Edited January 6, 2014 by stevebob

[Mutonizer 78]

Why do you think the mouselook is in any way natural? Do you not have your own pair of legs, or perhaps you're not a human or something? Are you a fish? It is not hard to turn around or navigate through tight areas when you're carrying a bag of equipment. The last time I've had to do something similar was hiking through the appalachian trails with a 50+ pound bag on my back every day, the only thing made more difficult was walking up steep hills. I didn't end up staring up or down from turning around too quickly like the current mouse-movement in dayz, how does something like that even make sense? You can have no gear whatsoever in the standalone and the mouse movement is still clunky. This problem wasn't in the dayz mod and it sure as hell doesn't exist in Arma 3 because it's obviously bad design. Like I mentioned, throughout the mods development there has always been some unintuitive things popping up with controls or inventory or whatever, and you can bet there's always been some dude on these forums claiming it should be a feature. Makes me scratch my head.   

 

Hmmm, move your mouse less quickly, bit like you would a human head or body? I mean, you don't just "ZIP ZAP" your head or entire body, usually it's all in a smooth, fluid and rather moderate motion. Not sure why you can't do that in DayZ...

 

I mean, yes I see what you're saying and if I move my mouse around full speed, it's "clunky" as you said, but just don't do it. Pan around and you can still get a decent speed if need be. It won't be 180° in a nanosecond but I never had it cause me any issue whatsoever. Look at the OP's video, his mouse movement are completely crazy. Sure they're great in twitch shooters but they're completely unrealistic.

[irichey25 17]

OP: "Hey guys, I thought sense this is an alpha I'd give my feedback on something I think is a bit weird"

Fourm :'NOFUCKYOUYOUSTUPIDPEICEOFSHITYOU'REOPINIONANDFEEDBACKISCOMPLETLYWRONGGETOUTRIGHTNOW"

 

How I love this community. 

[wolf7115 8]

Negative mouse acceleration is the stupidest fucking thing I have ever heard of. I agree with you complately OP.

 

In DayZ, the controls in general are garbage. I don't at all feel like I'm walking around the world. Instead, I feel more like I'm remote controlling a drone on the moon with an ATARI controller.