Retention - How is the Standalone going to achieve what the mod could not?

[semipr0 402]

Poll added to get an idea of what people think on this subject.

Anyways, long post as short as I can possibly make it right here in this paragraph. Simple facts are as much fun as DayZ can be, the true story of it all is its not exactly what you'd call an attention holding game. At best, the DayZ Mod usually entertains people, for on average, about a month to a month and a half at best and then its pretty much BTDT until the next patch and only if that patch adds something that might make the game somewhat substantially different. So, in the shortest descriptive possible, DayZ has always kinda sucked at being more than a brief fling of a game for most people that have played it.

Now, with the short description out of the way lets get a little deeper.

DayZ was awesome when it first came out, it was really kind of a novel experience at the time because it combined some elements of role playing games with a main focus feature of FPS/action gaming and it was a pretty nice mix....for a mod at least, it was quite a laudable achievement to come up with such a nice balance of game mechanics and make it actually work well.

But even then...it didn't really retain those 1.7 million or so survivors it had play it either, now did it. Lets face it, there are role playing games in Second Life and IMVU made by users of those platforms that have had 2 million unique players over their existence, that doesn't mean that two million people play those games every day, nor does it even mean that Second Life and IMVU have two million players consistently.

DayZ as a game simply lacked any retention factor whatsoever. You spawn, you gear up, you die....and you do it again. Its very much a hamster wheel in of which, eventually even the RPG elements of it as far as loot scavenging and basic crafting and survival mechanisms eventually simply lose any shine whatsoever. Eventually even respawning to go kill more people becomes onerous and boring because its kinda something that so many other games do so much better than the Arma platform has ever done it...so once all the features that while combined make DayZ a fairly entertaining experience start to fragment into boring, repetitive actions...the game kind of exposes itself for what it really is, an unfinished thought that had a really good core foundation, but never got much more beyond that.

Now a lot of mods of the mod like Origins and 2017 and Epoch and Breaking Point tried to address all this stuff, each in their own respective ways....none of which I would specifically say were effective on their own as being able to take DayZ to that next level and actually finish the thought...and in doing so, establish a heavy retention value for what is otherwise a pretty meaningless and shallow experience after you come out of the other end of it.

Now as much as I'm aware that this is "Alpha" and that the "game isn't finished yet".....looking at the base functionality we have so far and extrapolating to a certain degree...even at the best guessed scenario of "completion"...I still don't think the answer to the ultimate question which faces DayZ...which is "What do I do now?", is even something that has a legitimate feature planned for it.

And "Alpha" or not, the entire point of the standalone was to create a game...not a mod of a game, and if we don't tackle the ultimate question which undermines the entire DayZ experience and has since the mod was released....well then its still kind of just like the mod is it not? Except a lot more money and time got spent on it.

So, in conclusion, what do you think it will take as a feature, to make DayZ a more completed gaming experience for you? If its not one of the poll options..I'd love to hear your ideas....cause I really think this game could use a few.

[Publik 404]

I'd like to see larger server populations, for one. Challenging survival would be good, so would base building and crafting. Basically, all of the above on the poll. The DayZ team's biggest priority should be getting all of the mod features working in SA, like vehicles, storage, base building, etc, even if they're all in a basic form. I'd kill to be able to drop a sandbag wall or a wooden crate or drive around. This also includes the zombies, which I feel would be pretty good if they just respawned and were more common (and didn't go through buildings). They're actually pretty decently dangerous if you're underequipped and can be a problem once you start to get 3+ on you. I'd really like to see a preview build that only supports a low server population but has a lot of zombies and no loot, just to see how they'd be once optimized and en masse. Right now though there's just nothing to do, and I can't imagine continuing on like this for another week, much less a month.

 

I'm also worried about recent player behaviour; Coastal Detergent Drinking Simulator 2014 isn't a game I really care for, and I don't know if it'll stop even if new features are added. It's kind of annoying that people haven't grown up in the year I've been away from DayZ.

[semipr0 402]

Yanno I did forget to mention larger server populations.

 

I'd definitely like to see the network architecture be more optimized for perhaps 64 - 100 player loads but given the hurdles the game has faced so far in regards to its network level stuff...I'm not sure we're ever going to get that.

 

40 player limits with 4 hour automatic restarts seems like its going to be a prevalent theme, from mod..to game...unfortunately.

[Publik 404]

Yanno I did forget to mention larger server populations.

 

I'd definitely like to see the network architecture be more optimized for perhaps 64 - 100 player loads but given the hurdles the game has faced so far in regards to its network level stuff...I'm not sure we're ever going to get that.

 

40 player limits with 4 hour automatic restarts seems like its going to be a prevalent theme, from mod..to game...unfortunately.

I'd heard talk of 140 man servers from our server admin ;)

[semipr0 402]

I'd heard talk of 140 man servers from our server admin ;)

 

I don't think thats functionally possible without using an entire rackmount to pull it off. Not to mention the bandwidth would be somewhat insane. I definitely think its possible if someones willing to throw enough expensive hardware at the situation to make it happen, but that won't exactly be the norm.

 

Plus even if you do throw a bunch of expensive hardware at the situation, a 3000 dollar transfer bandwidth bill monthly is pretty hard to justify without some way to monetize the endeavor...unless you're just ridiculously rich or you're managing a federal data center where no one really understands what you're doing with the hardware (which is not uncommon) so no one really notices that eighteen thousand dollars worth of tax payer bought hardware is running the most ridiculous game server on earth.

 

So yeah I'm not saying its impossible, I'm just saying I don't see it being the status quo at all. If it could be done efficiently and cost effectively Vilayer would already be doing it and waving their collective dick in everyones face with their server numbers. Its how business is done after all...in the hosting business at least.

[hoik 415]

Thanks to the new loot drop system and the new zombie spawning system that has been introduced in the SA there are many, many possible directions that Dayz can take in order to achieve unique and engaging game play.

 

IMO it comes down to two words - Dynamic Causality. That is:

 

 - All actions (by the player) have consequences

 - These consequences are neither positive or negative, they are simply the logical outcome of a action.

 - These consequences will have subtle effect on what has value in Dayz

 

For a detailed look at where I think this Idea can go please have a read of these:

 

http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/105714-global-causality-within-the-scope-of-dayz/

http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/8616-lifedeath-calculator-intrinsic-valueculture/

http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/24410-server-death-the-end-game-to-end-games/#entry240216

 

Not all these idea involve dynamic loot or zombies but they all overlap in some way in order to promote interesting and complex global dynamics in order to give the players value as well as provide an overarching 'endgame' for those that choose to pursue it.

 

Why do I think this is important?

 

Well this idea of 'Dynamic Causality' stems from a much harder question: How to give players intrinsic value in DayZ? (Its important to note that this question has to take into account the unique framework that Dayz makes you work within - that is: Freedom of choice, 'authenticity', non-traditional RPG (no skills or perks) etc. These factors must (IMO) be taken into account when trying to 'solve' issues such as giving players lives value or extending game play.) Myself, I found that solving the one problem also solves the other.

 

Simply put, I feel there needs to be something that ties all the players together, a common fate that is larger than our individual whims and selfish impulses, but at the same time is driven by them. IMO this is how we give players value, this is how we give the game longevity.

Edited December 30, 2013 by Hoik

[flygamer1 176]

Oh god, I hope there will never be base building in the standalone. It's just retarded

[Twixxer 159]

Well, for me it would be atmosphere. Atmospheric music and possibly some-kind of backstory is what would make the game for me. 

[Lancer 2-2 14]

Oh god, I hope there will never be base building in the standalone. It's just retarded

Why not?

 

It is natural that during a zombie apocalypse a group of survivors would wish to have shelter, it is human nature to want a home, protection.

 

So you would find what you could to board up windows, doors, use ex-military sandbags or barbed wire, build fences to protect yourself from looters/zombies.

 

Also we would need some sort of delay/protection for tents as we are not around 100% of the time to defend them if found.

 

 

If you don't like it play servers that don't allow it, or just ignore it... you don't have to bum on someone else's gamestyle if it doesn't suit you, if you find a "camp" then either demolish it or avoid it.... why do you need to get involved if your not going to take advantage, that is find, that is your play style.

 

But if Rocket is going for realism, then the human nature and requirement for shelter and protection should factor.

 

It also works with combat logging, I mentioned somewhere else that if you log off while in the middle of nowhere your avatar should remain for X time, but if you log off inside a building aka shelter you disappear instantly... this adds the realism of shelter... I mean if we constantly slept in the middle of the forest/field with no sleeping bag or cover we would all die of various illnesses.... it is a cold, wet world out there.

So you can pitch your tent, but find a nice spot you can pitch your tent with a buddies and either build some fences, boobie traps around it or just relocate every day or so.... makes the game more sandbox MMO like too which I think is cool, adds depth and realism.

 

It also gives groups of bandits and the lone looter something to do and we all loved that moment we came across undefended tents in the mod and they had that all vital medical supplies, food, drink, ammo and cool weapons inside....

Edited December 29, 2013 by Lancer 2-2

[k120 42]

Base building and crafting. Other points are important aswell.

 

Without anything to look forward game gets boring very quick. In the mod i mostly enjoyed when i was new and after learning more everything got boring. Mods of mod such as epoch managed to keep my interest further when i always had something to do - look for materials and build a base or just find other survivors bases.

[Traveler (DayZ) 27]

The way better interaction with the world and the objects in it will add a LOT, even if they are not fleshed-out yet. I don't like base building, but temporary camps with tents, and maybe fences and stuff should be possible. It takes away a bit from the survival aspect initially, but rewards you with group-PVP, so "base-Building" really factors into the "rewarding PVP/PVE" section imho. I also like the roleplay/social interaction component (I play the game to be a postapocalyptic survivor)...but at the end of the road, what will make the Standalone better than any of the mos of the mod, is its system of organizing objects, crafting, rearranging, and the many possibilities that arise from that (spreading disease, disinfecting stuff, writing notes for others to read, making an IED to blow someone up, set a trap, ingame talk via radio...this will make the game all the more immersive and cool. I mean there is the possibility to orient yourself at nighttime by using the constellations of stars?! That's fu**ed up deep, man! (I know it was in Arma II too).

[Rott (DayZ) 218]

Stand alone cannot touch any of the mods... Not now, not for an awful long time....

[badman85@gmail.com 14]

so the main question or at least the direction of the conversation is long term shelter . interestingly tents were never used as shelter , more of a chest . i know you know this already . so the first question is :

will we at some point be required to utilize shelter ? if the answer is "yes" this opens up the debate of how much & how complex a system will best suit the flow of game play & game stability .

if the answer is "no" base building might be more finite . obviously up to the dev's discretion . 

 

if i remember correctly Dean had mentioned underground bunkers or instances . i thought this was an attempt to force a degree of community within game . 

in any case iv always been fond of barricading preexisting buildings & less attracted to full on fort construction .

in any case my primary concern as im confident the dev's is , is stability ! i am grateful this seems to be Dean's primary focus & commend him for this . 

[Novalis 17]

IMHO the lessons learned from DayZ Origins and Epoch are no-excessive-base-building. It totally alters (i.e. ruins) the game If a player can hoard dozens of weapons, endless ammunition, equipment and owns a freaking garage for a car. I'm all for providing the player with a method of lessen the impact of dying, I even think it would be nice If it provides safety regarding stealing. Instead of the old tent mechanics I would like to see small personalized caches only the player can access - maybe a safe (like the new safes in Origins) or storage boxes. Important is that only 1 or 2 storage boxes per account are aloud and the boxes itself only have 1-2 weaponslot(s), space for one complete garment and a few slots for random items needed. 

 

I like the idea of barricading existing buildings. But if something like that is permanently we will see entire neighborhoods and city districts converted into fortresses from clans.

[Lancer 2-2 14]

Well base building won't be to that extent, it will be the ability to apply sections of barbed wire, wooden fencing, sandbag walls (reinforced with wood) at various heights requiring someone trying to get passed having to climb over, jump, cut or demolish completely. Naturally cutting barbed wire is the quieter to demolishing but physically touching or jumping that should hurt you and maybe make you bleed.

 

The point of this is to protect what ever someone has "horded" inside, but it is not a fortress and everything can be tackled in their way rather simply if you have the right tools and/or the builder has not made any mistakes.

 

Don't forget there has to be a way in anyway... even if it some form of interaction with a gate called "padlock" which can be broken with certain heavy duty cutting tools. It does just leave you vulnerably in the open for a few seconds when your avatar goes through the animation.

 

Again this is not a fortress to horde weapons, but it could be one survivor or several or even bandits who just want a base of ops to store loot and strike out from.... could even be vehicles inside.

 

This adds an element of factions and gangs developing out of the survivors, bandits, looters etc... You don't have to do any of this, you can carry on as you like being the solo guy... you can even sneakily break into one of these camps and steal stuff.

 

As for tents, who is to say they have to stay like the "storage box tents" from Arma 2. They could be tents we can crouch walk or prone crawl into as well as being limited storage boxes.

We could have different tents from the compact tents to larger tents you can even walk into... store more stuff in but are easier to spot and harder to hide unless slap bang in the middle of an encampment. 

 

This works with IEDs, claymores, mines... can be used to deter anyone trying to gain entry through the "trap zones".... and it would be interesting as I believe Rocket mentioned he wants to make fire/heat/smoke attract zombies so having a camp fire or making noise within your encampment has a chance to attract zombies who will end up surrounding your encampment damaging the defences or setting off the traps. A loud explosion attracts more zombies which can now trudge through the gap left by the now blown up zombie, you spawn in and... holy crap!!!

 

As for shelter... perhaps simply logged off too many times in the "wilderness" can cause illness, but logging off inside of shelter preserves your stats and protects you from the weather. I'm thinking the Namalsk map in DayZ and feeling cold... how fires and warm clothes warm you up.

Edited December 29, 2013 by Lancer 2-2