Proposed changes to weapon handling, debuffs, accuracy, tradeoffs etc.

[franzuu 211]

Right now the way they are going about this is all wrong. Rocket said that the they want to do things so that they are intuitive, well there is nothing intuitive about it. Its sloppy game dev magic. There has been whining on this but not many alternatives have been suggested on how to balance the game and keep it interesting and hard.

 

I'll just start off

 

• 1. Make bullet ballistics reasonably close to real life

 

Here is a good thread on it, I don't have much to add right now

http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/157148-correcting-sa-ballistics/

 

• 2. Remove mouse smoothing handling debuffs from longer weapons and add back weapon collision (CQB stock vs standard on the M4 for example)

 

instead

 

2a Add back weapon collision into the game. A longer rifle, an attached bayonet, stock, short stock, no stock, folded stock etc, it all changes how well you can maneuver in tight spaces.

 

2b Add inertia to swinging around your weapon. A weapon that has more attachments near the end is front heavier. Shortening the stock and removing attachments from the front (flashlight, bayonet) makes the gun easier to handle. Its shorter and less front heavy. Making the back end more heavy can make it easier to handle but adds other problem, but is still part of the equation.

 

A front heavy guns' muzzle will lag behind on a fast swing and overshoot its target when the person stops at it. This would add an element of skill to the game. An experienced player will be able to fight the inertia by:

1. Stopping before the target.

2. Actively fighting the overshoot inertia by dragging the mouse in the opposite direction.

3. Lowering their weapon on the swingaround. I don't know if this condition is worth adding, seems more of a hassle and we don't have so much control over our characters for it to be worth it + any benefit would be lost on the muzzle lag on the upswing. Main benefit would be that you don't get caught on stuff.

 

Muzzle lag on downward swings should be counteracted by gravity.

 

• 3. Remove bullet accuracy penalty from weapon attachments and their condition or state

 

3a. Deployed bi-pod in non-prone unsupported position - remove the penalty. Instead make the bi-pod collide with geometry. Rattle when moving around if damaged (some rattle when they are new). Ability to damage them if violently bumped into something from the wrong angle.

 

3b. Suppressor adds front weight and length, nothing else.

 

3c. Damaged scopes and sights. Wrong zeroing that the shooter will have to correct for himself, nothing else.

 

3d. Flashlight, front weight.

 

3e. Damaged bi-pod in supported position. Slow downward drift that the character will correct when you jolt/move your gun up. Left/right downward drift when bi-pod legs are unevenly damaged. Might not be the most realistic thing in the world but its better and predictable. Could be accompanied by creaky sound or sand crushed under teeth sound or whatever.

 

3f. No rear sight, only condition where I can accept increased random bullet wander.

 

3g. No stock, single shots are accurate but burst and auto has higher recoil. Sore shoulder that can have a negative effect for a while.

 

3h. Damaged handguard. Single shots accurate but increased recoil with burst and auto. Rattle when damaged and running.

 

3i. Bent barrel, predictable zeroing error.

 

3j. Worn barrel, random bullet wander accepted.

 

3k. No random bullet wander for attached bayonet

 

• 4. Increased breathing sway and shaking

 

4a. Increased breathing sway for longer weapons and front heavier weapons.

4b. Increased shaking for front heavier weapons and heavier weapons.

4c. Breathing sway and shaking modified by player position (prone to standing) and condition: hypothermia, cold, overheated, winded, weak, hungry, sick, injured, pain, whatever.

 

• 5. Recoil changes

5a. Increased recoil to Arma3 levels

5b. Recoil that doesn't fully autocorrect

5c. Recoil doesn't correct during burst, auto or sustained single fire, you'll have to fight it yourself (like Arma3 but Arma 3 has no autocorrect at all)

5d. Recoil correction after shooting has ended: prone supported 100% vertical corrected 90% RIGHT recoil corrected. Crouch 50% both corrected. Standing 25% corrected.

5e. Recoil increased when player isn't healthy.

5f. Realistic base recoil for the different stances.

 

• 6. More bi-pod changes

6a. Ability to use bi-pod on geometry in crouched and standing position (engine changes? Fixed and predetermined locations?)

6b. When player is using bi-pod while prone and moves it off the ground he loses the increased stability. This entails reduced downward aim while prone and weapon collision with ground. For loss of benefit while aiming up perhaps have a base aim angle in relation to body and it stops when going too many degrees down and loses benefit when too many degrees up. Also it is really hard and awkward to shoot up while prone. Should have some major recoil, sway and shaking penalties.

 

For the prone bi-pod upward thingy you'll have to keep in mind that irl there are multiple prone positions like resting your rifle on your hands. This should be represented in animation when going from bi-pod support to hands.

 

 

• 7. More affect on weapon handling from player condition (melee and firearms)

I touched upon this before but wanted to bring it out individually. Weaker swings when weak/injured. Sight shake, sway and recoil affected by player condition.

 

• 8. Melee weapon collision and tight spaces.

Instead of taking a full swing and hitting the wall, can't you just start the swing past the post/shelf and give a weaker blow or take a closer grip towards the end of the weapon or don't make as wide of an arc by limiting your hands. No idea how to do this, probably very hard.

 

• 9. More ammo variants and grades (conditions?) in the same caliber.

9a. Ammo variants: Subsonic, Sniper grade (very accurate - less random bullet wander, smaller muzzle flash), hollow point (no armor penetration more lethal), armor penetrating, hot loads (bigger bang, more range, more damage), surplus ammo (low quality, less accurate, jams etc). Whatever you can think of.

 

9b. Ammo condition old - hangfires or not workingat all, weathered, beat up, corroded, dirty (jams and less accurate).

 

Players should have the ability to clean dirty ammo and improve them somewhat. All stacks of ammo from the same caliber should be stackable, independent from their condition. Reverse should be possible too, to pull out the ammo that you want/don't want. Say you see someone far away and need your sniper grade bullets but they are in with all the others.

 

With so many different types of ammo for same calibers and different conditions there should be a different system for managing it. Or they should take up significantly less room. Perhaps have a stack for "Assorted ammo". I think ammo conditions will add a lot to the game.

 

• 10. Remove the precision/random bullet wander penalties from all of the weapons.

Currently a pristine M4 is useless at longer ranges, starting at about 70m, which is actually really close.

 

 

I suspect that a lot of this stuff was done to make killing harder and to combat kos. Instead make weapons more complex (made up of more parts) and spawn weapons in worse conditions, on average. This way people will have to work for good weapons and the more they have to work for them the more likely that they are going to get themselves in trouble which will give them more sway, shake whatever. And if a part of a weapon is damaged then don't make it give a BS penalty, have it affect the stuff that it would affect in real life.

 

 

Other Suggestions:Rain ponchos

Edited December 24, 2013 by KeelPool

[SFRGaming 718]

I really do like most of this. At the moment I don't have time to go through it bit by bit. One I saw that maybe should be changed is the suppressor. Yes, it adds weight and length, but I think it should be more in depth. There are many types of suppressors that, because of their construction, have different effects on the weapon. One may decrease muzzle velocity and accuracy, while another may grant you stock muzzle velocity, but affect accuracy. There should be a wide range of suppressors with different pros and cons.

[MCRoadkill 7]

Good points :)

 

PS. why would I find an American M4A1 in Russia where it's more likely to find loads of AK-47's or AK-74's (wich ever version you like best).

Edited December 23, 2013 by MCRoadkill

[franzuu 211]

1 more thing

 

In regards to wind affecting bullets. There is no good way to gauge wind in video games. In DayZ the clouds move incredibly fast and thick-ass trees sway at their roots. I personally don't like for it to be an UI element. Wind affect should be limited or not at all.

 

Elevation: elevation affect on bullet drop should be in the game. Makes it harder to snipe, and that is what we want, right?

 

Humidity and temperature, hard to gauge that, shouldn't be in.

 

Coriolis effect, very very minimal, not worth it. At ranges that it would matter players would probably be out of the bubble.

[franzuu 211]

• 10. Remove the precision/random bullet wander penalties from all of the weapons.

Currently a pristine M4 is useless at longer ranges, starting at about 70m, which is actually really close.

 

 

I suspect that a lot of this stuff was done to make killing harder and to combat kos. Instead make weapons more complex (made up of more parts) and spawn weapons in worse conditions, on average. This way people will have to work for good weapons and the more they have to work for them the more likely that they are going to get themselves in trouble which will give them more sway, shake whatever. And if a part of a weapon is damaged then don't make it give a BS penalty, have it affect the stuff that it would affect in real life.

Edited December 24, 2013 by KeelPool

[Snawfu (DayZ) 4]

Professional and well-thought post. Absolutely seconded. They should be combating KOS in different ways (which they have done), not just adjusting gunplay and making them inaccurate for no reason.

[Mopp_94 29]

Some of these things seem fantastic, smart, well thought out ideas, but some of it is way to convaluted to pull of on arma 2's quirky engine smoothly imo. I might be wrong, im nothing close to a game dev but, I dunno, I think they need to focus on optimization and content for the time being. 

[frosti 2165]

tl dr version - we want game to be more like Call of Duty?

[Snawfu (DayZ) 4]

tl dr version - we want game to be more like Call of Duty?

1/5 for effort. Any of these changes aren't comparable to Call of Duty.

[MarcusB 0]

I like some of this.. but alot of it seems abit much.. I be-leave at it's core to me DayZ is a Gun game.. But I know that it shouldn't be a Gun game and that it's not intended to be a Gun Game First above all else.

so for alot of this I would say it seems to much and pushes the game more to that "Gun Game" it isn't supposed to be. I think there is alot that could be improved on the survival horror side of the game that should

be improved before large scale changes in primarily guns are made, melee, crafting, zombie AI, collision, path finding, hunting, gathering, fishing, farming, cooking, primitive weapons like bows sling shots etc all these things once added will break the game away from that gun game mentality people have because there will be more to it.

  while alot of these ideas I would love to see in a game like arma I'd be real meh about in DayZ.. because Dayz isn't about the military spec ops takes on zombies... it's about the average joe surviving the apocalypse.. and the average joe don't know how to compensate for humidity, wind, bullet drop etc most average players are gonna have a hard time with ranging there scopes even (as we see with all the mosin/m4 ain't accurate posts)... if this were a military sim then it would make sense but its not.  I want to see cool things with guns too.. but with in reason that if my friends that don't shoot guns in real life can still join and be able to at least shoot guns as well as they can in most other fps games.

[David375 34]

If there is one subtle change I would like to see, it's barrel harmonics. As I remember, the SKS-45 was designed to fire with a locked-open bayonet, and therefore had the proper, desired POI. Without the Bayonet, it's accuracy and POI changed, different for every rifle.

 

Other changes I would like to see are folding bayonets for the SKS, and action bedding to increase the accuracy of the Mosin and SKS (I believe it's already done by default on the M4 at the factory). If they added Epoxy to the game you could do it.

 

Finally, using duct-tape or having a seperate device to connect two magazines. Or maybe a rotary drum magazine for the M4 and AK for when that comes out.

[David375 34]

also, handloading has to be a thing. Be able to find raw gunpowder, primers, cases and bullets to make your own ammo instead of having to find it everywhere.

[franzuu 211]

As per the latest Dev Blog the devs have decided to implement part of my suggestion #2. I feel accomplished even though they probably never even saw this :)

[Katana67 2907]

I agree with a lot of this as well. Although the folks here have sort of convinced me that subsonic ammo isn't necessarily worth pursuing, but I still think it might be useful.

 

As to the physics you're describing with regard to weapon mobility, I like them, but I'm not sure it's plausible/likely given the extreme granularity of what you're suggesting.