Suggested tweaks to balance game play

[Leechman 8]

--GIANT POST ALERT--

I'm sick of arguing about the need for bandits in a game like this and about the stupidity of punishing bandits. (I swear that's the last remark I'll make about it)

So instead I'm taking up pointing out why every "solution" that I've seen is a bad way of going about business. This post will not be about the 'need' for PvP, but rather why all suggested methods are ineffective in their attempt to address the proposer's "problem". This post is also not suggesting that any changes be made, rather addressing inadequacies in current proposals, as well as (hopefully) reducing the number of threads that devolve into pointless arguments about the inclusion of PvP and the need for punishments.

For the record, I am not, nor have I ever been a bandit. The only player I have killed was accidentally hitting a buddy of mine in a zombie engagement, and I did not drop to negative humanity. I am all for the uninhibited bandit playstyle as it stands in the game currently, and believe it adds a large amount of immersion, challenge and freedom to a great game. Anyway, to business:

Firstly, almost every thread I've seen proposing a 'solution' are punishments, in one form or another, of varying severity. I don't think I've actually seen a thread asking for the complete removal of PvP, but rather addressing the poster's desire to discourage excessive or indiscriminate banditry. The specific sphere of banditry shifts slightly from suggestion to suggestion, but mostly seems to focus on those who choose to kill for fun, rather than for resource gain("extreme banditry"). The argument of whether PvP should be allowable is irrelevant.

Secondly, every single one of these 'solutions' have been proposals that affect ALL players who choose a low humanity/bandit play style AFTER they have already committed to it. I say ALL because most, if not all proposals I have seen thus far, base the 'solution' off the humanity counter, which, while being a useful and interesting tool in the game, is ineffective to base a system of deterrence on. Any punishment adversely affects (beyond the intended targets) those who became a bandit by accident or self-defence, for example. Furthermore, it limits the ability of such players, as well as those who chose the bandit playstyle, to switch from low humanity/a bandit playstyle to high humanity/a survivor playstyle, because they are being adversely affected by the implemented punishment. This occurs regardless of the severity of the punishment and is a detriment to the overall experience for the player and can influence their decision-making, possibly removing any emergent gameplay.

Examples of ex post punishments: (not singling out suggestions, just giving examples)

-Altering spawn points to favour high humanity survivors

-Implementing new mobs that act aggressive towards low humanity players and passive to high humanity players.

-Altering gear upon spawn to favour high humanity survivors

-Altering loot chances/rarity to favour high humanity survivors

-Implementing a new gameplay feature to adversely affect low humanity players.

The better solution would be to use simple, already existing gameplay mechanics (i.e. zombies) to discourage 'extreme banditry' BEFORE it occurs. Don't take anything away, or play favourites, just increase the risk of certain generalised gameplay aspects.

Zombies already exist in the game and are the PERFECT tool if you want to discourage extreme banditry. By altering zombie mechanics and behaviour in certain situations you can increase the risk associated with extreme banditry and effectively reduce the number of players who participate in such behaviour with far less deadweight loss for the community as a whole. Furthermore, 'solutions' that utilise zombies as an ex ante deterrent are fair to all playstyles - increasing risk/danger for all players, not targeting those with low humanity for punishment.

Examples:

-Zombies that become more attracted to gunfire, perhaps on an increasing scale (i.e. the more gunfire within a certain period the greater the aggro radius for the person firing). This would discourage, and effectively reduce, the amount of indiscriminate firing by all players. Furthermore it would increase immersion, and encourage more thoughtful use of ammo in a crisis.

-You could spawn more zombies in near to a player if X number of shots were fired within Y seconds (this basis is just an example and would have to be balanced per weapon). Once again, this discourages indiscriminate firing and instead of punishing it, it actually encourages directed, considered firing something which is important for all players and immersion.

-You could also improve the rate at which zombies which are aggro'd onto one player will switch to another if he is also firing nearby or within a certain radius. Or perhaps even transferring zombies once their target player is dead. The aim of this would be to reduce PvP ambushes whilst one player is being attacked. It would also, however encourage and foster teamwork in the face of adversity as both players would need to fight together to fend off the horde, or risk taking them all on solo, adding to immersion.

-You could spawn zombies around a player who has not moved or moved a small amount (I believe the servers can track distance moved?) in a certain period of time or perhaps a certain period of time after firing a weapon. This would be aimed at reducing camping behaviours. It would also encourage players to consider their movements (or lack thereof) and add a danger element to going AFK in a bush (something which would definitely be highly dangerous in a real zombie apocalypse :P)

-You could increase military zombie spawns around players who are frequently (X shots within Y seconds again, balanced for weapon type/firing rate) firing military-grade weapons. More often than not, it is likely that a bandit will carry this type of weapon, but this would increase the risk for all players who use such weapons. Ammo for those weapons tends to be more valuable due to the rarity and military zombies are more difficult to kill giving incentives for players to be more mindful of their ammo use and increasing the marginal risk of choosing to shoot at a player or a zombie.

These are just some examples of ways that gameplay challenge and immersion could be improved while discouraging prevalence of extreme banditry or poor playing. They don't unfairly favour one playstyle over another. Instead they affect all players and give them greater choice and challenge about pursuing different playstyles, giving better immersion and gameplay experience. Furthermore, they don't limit switching between playstyles because they are based on how you are playing in the moment, not how you have acted previously, giving freedom of choice.

As I mentioned earlier, I'm not providing these as suggestions for changes to the game, but rather providing suggestions on how to change your mindset for addressing, and providing 'solutions' for the 'problem' you see with certain playstyles. An ex ante method of deterrence is far, far better than an ex post punishment at addressing the issue and achieving the desired effect without adversely affecting by-standers (self-defence bandits or those who wish to change playstyles). Limiting choice through punishment is detrimental to an individual gameplay experience in a game such as this, and can affect the game as a whole. Instead use the existing mechanics to increase the risk of decidedly risky behaviours.

Remember if you choose to reply that this post was about methods of enacting 'solutions' not about whether they are needed.

Apologies for giant post, but I needed to get it off my chest. Thanks for reading (if you took the time :D)

TL;DR: Ex ante deterrents > ex post punishments. Please change your thought process.

[gator (DayZ) 22]

Preach on, brutha.

[oktyabr 53]

I won't have yet another thread turn into a PVP sissy fight. I wish you would have chosen your topic line more carefully.

[Leechman 8]

Apologies,

Change it as you see fit. I also don't want another PvP sissy fight.

[gator (DayZ) 22]

There seems to be a consensus on moar zombies though. Maybe this can be a how to make zombies a bigger part of the game mechanics thread?

[oktyabr 53]

Apologies' date='

Change it as you see fit. I also don't want another PvP sissy fight.

[/quote']

How does that suit you?

Your OP reminds me of some posts I wrote myself not long ago. If I read it right then I can say I agree that in general adjusting the *threat level* from the PVP end of the scale towards the PVE opposite should be the focus.

It's very difficult to find the time to be a deliberate pain in the ass or conversely, complain about pain in the asses being the biggest threat in the game when new and improved zed (and hopefully in bigger numbers) make even the best bandit look like a girl scout selling cookies by comparison.

[Leechman 8]

It's fine. I've moderated forums similar in size to this and completely understand the issue with the original title. :)

Your OP reminds me of some posts I wrote myself not long ago. If I read it right then I can say I agree that in general adjusting the *threat level* from the PVP end of the scale towards the PVE opposite should be the focus.

More or less. I'm ok with things staying the same, and don't feel banditry in any form is an issue. However, the volume of posts regarding it is, or at least indicates something I'm not experiencing. Shifting risk and threat to the PvE side can improve the overall challenge, immersion and fun of the game for all. I'm also hoping that my suggestions can give people better thought process for more effective suggestions.

Of course fixing and refining zombies first is more important :)

It's very difficult to find the time to be a deliberate pain in the ass or conversely, complain about pain in the asses being the biggest threat in the game when new and improved zed (and hopefully in bigger numbers) make even the best bandit look like a girl scout selling cookies by comparison.

Note to self: New suggestion thread - change bandit skins to girl scout uniforms. Remove guns, make bandits throw cookies. :D

[Jimmy James 18]

I remember the first time I was knocked down by the first zombie of several in a pack and torn to bits, I had 7000-ish blood and my first thought was "Wow, I didn't think zombies were really a threat" and my second was "I wish I had teamed up with someone. I'd probably live through this."

If zombies were extremely dangerous it'd probably completely alter the gameplay, as you both have mentioned.

[oktyabr 53]

Oh hell yeah! In a different thread someone suggested that the zombies need to be so ramped up that when you finally do encounter another player it's usually with a sigh of relief. I'd like to play THAT game.

[bjorn (DayZ) 1]

I wholly agree with this equation

more zombies = less pointless/COD pvp , more gain from team work, etc.

Also another balance to game play is spreading spawns across the island (not sure if spawns are just around the south coast)

This would reduce the "rush on normandy" beach when spawning on a fresh full server.

[Leechman 8]

I started out just using these as examples for pro bandit punishment people on how to improve their proposals. I didn't actually see a dire need for change.

I think I've actually managed to argue myself into believing my examples need to happen.

Zombies NEED to be more difficult/threatening. Not from a PvP resolution standpoint, but from an overall gameplay view.

My examples are now suggestions I would like to see implemented for testing if possible.

I'm happy to accept any feedback on them.

[O'Malley 3]

So, I'm in the general 'Bandits need to be nerfed' group, and I think you're idea is by far the simplist and most effective.

I can imagine a fire fight between two teams of bandits happening, and spawning a lot of zombies. They then need to decide whether to gang up and trust each other to survive, or go their seperate ways and risk the zombie horde. That would lead to some incredibly intense gameplay.

[UbiquitousBadGuy 846]

The best solutions are elegant in their simplicity and execution. Installing arbitrary rules to limit "undesirable" behavior is messy and invites other issues while making the system more complex than it needs to be.

Kudos for devising a solution that attacks the fundamental "flaw" without bias. I completely agree that Zed aggroing is the best way to deal with the issue.

[Virfortis 111]

I'm surprised this hasn't turned into a "you carebear" flamefest yet.

Basically, firefights in general should attract zombies. I don't see how a Makarov shot can still be heard and yet the Zeds do not get near it. The general aggro radius of zombies is far too low as far as guns are concerned. Now, I disagree that Bandits need to be nerfed because there's no REASON for them to be, given that all concepts of law and humanity have been thrown out the window because of a total collapse of society.

What needs to be done though? Gunshots need to be heard from MUCH farther than they are now. If a player can hear them, a Zombie should hear them. That way, firing your gun would be almost suicide unless you had the ammo to back it up. This would make cities much less of a bandit haven, as the zombies would hear a CZ shot from inside the city and GO AFTER HIM.

[Hesher (DayZ) 2]

The best solutions are elegant in their simplicity and execution. Installing arbitrary rules to limit "undesirable" behavior is messy and invites other issues while making the system more complex than it needs to be.

Kudos for devising a solution that attacks the fundamental "flaw" without bias. I completely agree that Zed aggroing is the best way to deal with the issue.

I agree, as it stands now, you can easily survive alone, the only real threat in this game so far isn't a lack of supplies or number of zombies, after you get the basics down the only way you can die is bug/lag or other players killing you. On my own, for example I can roam the map indefinitely with more than enough supplies to last me for days and getting them easily by myself till another player kills me ofc.

The enviroment should get drastically more dangerous, getting supplies should be a high danger level operation/mission, just staying alive should be by itself dangerous. This should imho increase the motivation to group up and change priorities from - "I'm bored, should I go kill some players/bandits cause I'm full on everything I need" or create a situation where you never are certain that you gonna 100% be able to survive in next couple of hours or so and you always feel a need to stockpile resources and be careful.

This way I think the killings aren't gonna be and shouldn't be "just for fun/cause I'm bored", people will be killing to stay alive, and an act of killing should naturally bring high risk and not necessarily high reward ratio.

Besides as it was pointed out, trying to arbitrarily punish certain gameplay style isn't gonna work, imho it will only ruin the game, instead changing a motivation behind the choices made by players should be a way to improve IMHO.

[n7snk 13]

The enviroment should get drastically more dangerous' date=' getting supplies should be a high danger level operation/mission, just staying alive should be by itself dangerous. This should imho increase the motivation to group up and change priorities from - "I'm bored, should I go kill some players/bandits cause I'm full on everything I need" or create a situation where you never are certain that you gonna 100% be able to survive in next couple of hours or so and you always feel a need to stockpile resources and be careful.

This way I think the killings aren't gonna be and shouldn't be "just for fun/cause I'm bored", people will be killing to stay alive, and an act of killing should naturally bring high risk and not necessarily high reward ratio.

[/quote']

so far the best idea i've read here.

[alexander_q 6]

This thread is on the right track. My $3.05:

ZOMBIES

-Zombie hearing range should be greatly increased. However, they do not lock on to the exact location of a shot, but instead search within a certain radius depending on the volume. Subsequent shots narrow this search radius. While in search mode, zombie vision and hearing is a lot more acute.

-Zombies should be able to overpower players, immobilising them. The more zombies taking part in the overpowering, the harder it is for the player to escape. The player might escape the zombie's hold, push the zombie into a prone position, be killed, or kill the zombie, based on his stamina and some rapid panicked button mashing.

-There should be a lot more zombies, especially in towns. Thousands if possible. Huge wandering mobs of them between towns.

-Zombies should be just as formidable indoors, though it should be possible to barricade doors (either using your body or with planks).

-Zombies should follow other zombies who are aggro'd or in search mode

COOPERATION

-Players should be able to collaborate on actions, like this: http://dayzmod.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=23848

-Players should be able to demonstrate their intentions by lowering or holstering their weapons, or raising their hands, while retaining the ability to move to make it non-risky to do so

-Skills should get better through practice, creating emerging classes to make all players more cautious with their lives: http://dayzmod.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=24651

AMMO

-Ammo should only be available from unreliable spawns so it cannot be camped or server-hopped. Make people think about each shot, and whether or not to try a bluff.