Humanity

[Hellfire447 7]

Hey Forums, I had this interesting idea for Dayz, I was thinking of the humanity system and it's complexity and I knew that this system has a huge amount of growth possible, and also that it's incredibly difficult to measure, none the less implement perfectly, most noticeably when player interaction is involved, with voice chat, typing and even just body language, and there affects on players whether that be if someone saved you or killed you, with all those factors involved. Yes, sorry that was huge, but again that is just some of the vast complexity with the issue:

I was thinking that trust and first impressions are a huge factor when meeting new people. A very realistic assumption I feel, and when applying this to a post-apocalyptic world things matter even more, so what if players are able to give some type of humanity based reputation to players that would allow for players to recognize good from evil, when actions preformed in the world become noticeable to a player they can react to the situation accordingly by say an example would be, a man saves you from starvation, you could in a way reward him with humanity in some way that can be measured , and others would be able to distinguish. The current system has difficulty when measuring when someone is shooting at you in self-defense, versus killing for your beans, so if someone is a bandit, a player can act accordingly and give that player a reputation, like is untrustworthy, greedy, ect. This system in my mind would be largely influenced by player interaction, it would be less actions triggering reward versus punishment humanity to players rewarding players for being a good person versus a guy being a backstabber. A leader board system possibly?

Also this system would work largely for promoting a persons non-mechanic action, which means a more role play/immersion play style which has near no reward for. I feel the current system measures bandits (I allude to a psychopath persona for this later) and the sort well because, well; they just shoot you, and that can be easily measured, but if there is a way to measure a person's actions that wants to be a bandit, but wants to promote more interaction. Whether that would be, an example imprisonment, a shake-down situation where you spill your bag, and they take what they want and they run off. This is an especially hard interaction to measure and I feel players that are serious about taking the simulation seriously would love to do these things, and players would respectively brand them in there play style, meaning bandits would be actual bandits, people that do what they need to do to survive, unlike the current bandit that is just someone who is a gun-slinging psychopath that wants to kill everything what moves, this is not a bandit, and I’m not advocating that bandits can't kill people, but I feel that people that don't want to be branded as a psychopath murderer, but still want to play a more survivalist play style, would be branded accordingly, and this means that those KOS style players can get an entirely new persona and play style that would make them distinguishable from a bandit, who is first a survivor and second a guy looking to reestablish humanity, versus the new psychopathy KOS type that would be something entirely different, so in a way I’m advocating a new class for this kind of person. This also means that those that want to be a survivalist, but don't want to commit banditry to do so, would be are true survivors, that everyone starts as. Then there are the far left survivors that want to help everyone and go out of there way to save everyone, which people would easily recognize from the situation and then could also be rewarded accordingly. See I feel this system has potential if implemented in a way that people would participate and use, like I was alluding to before could be some type of leader board system that people could progress through to reach a deviation in. In no way am I advocating skills or out of game buffs for these semi “class” distinguishing features. Furthermore, I also not only take into account, but support that players shouldn't be skinned so that there are extremely distinguishable, this system does demote from immersion, I agree, but then again naturally poor-minded, sick (in the head), people won't look like someone who is out to save people, they would dress in ragged cloths stripped from there victims, or would have a mentality that what they look like doesn't matter much because what people think of them or how they are perceived by others isn't a characteristic they take into account.

The bandits on the other hand, the hardened, survivalists that go long strides to secure and acquire a vehicle, or there large stockpiles of equipment to ensure there family, or friends are looked after by any means necessary would be completely different, they would dress to survive, any and all situations if possible, combat gear, body armor, face masks make sense, so a skin that pushes people this way would make sense. So you see I understand the argument that skins are wrong because it makes things too linear and less immersive, but the idea behind it is actually quite natural. The system needs work, and if a system that by either being close to someone and actually examining them, by example being able to hear there voice or see there face for immersive argumentation. Would allow such a reputation system to be distinguished.

TLDR; Players humanity needs, not a new, but another system to help measure interaction, so that game play is as real and immersive as possible. Which is what a survival game needs.

-Jesse

Edited February 22, 2013 by Hellfire447

[Avelon 2]

If the branding happens in such a way that you can see this information, but only if you are not in the game, then I agree that this is a satisfactory solution to the humanity problem and a good idea in its own right.

If however you can press a button and view their profile in-game, or look at them and see that 20 people have said they kill people on sight, having never approached them or been spotted by them, then this breaks immersion and becomes a gimmick rather than a feature, and has room for abuse. Imagine if players gave you a 'Murderer' flag when you joined the server so that your appearance would stand out from them, with them having given one another 'Saint' flags or something similar.

Or just imagine if it was the view-in-game-profile variant. You see someone in the city below you, so if nameplates are on, you use that info to pull up his profile and see what his likely disposition is going to be. If nameplates are off, this function is largely useless.

So, if there is a tracker on the hive itself that supports player profiles with a 'humanity' score, it'd be nice. Gradually, as you immerse yourself in the community, you would then come to find several notorious people as well as people who are commonly known as being good guys and girls.

But again, being able to simply look at someone and see that they are a bandit is a gimmick, not a feature, and a bad one at that even if the implementation of it is fixed.

[Hellfire447 7]

If the branding happens in such a way that you can see this information, but only if you are not in the game, then I agree that this is a satisfactory solution to the humanity problem and a good idea in its own right.

If however you can press a button and view their profile in-game, or look at them and see that 20 people have said they kill people on sight, having never approached them or been spotted by them, then this breaks immersion and becomes a gimmick rather than a feature, and has room for abuse. Imagine if players gave you a 'Murderer' flag when you joined the server so that your appearance would stand out from them, with them having given one another 'Saint' flags or something similar.

Or just imagine if it was the view-in-game-profile variant. You see someone in the city below you, so if nameplates are on, you use that info to pull up his profile and see what his likely disposition is going to be. If nameplates are off, this function is largely useless.

So, if there is a tracker on the hive itself that supports player profiles with a 'humanity' score, it'd be nice. Gradually, as you immerse yourself in the community, you would then come to find several notorious people as well as people who are commonly known as being good guys and girls.

But again, being able to simply look at someone and see that they are a bandit is a gimmick, not a feature, and a bad one at that even if the implementation of it is fixed.

Interesting, and I agree that having a tool that allows you to have knowledge of a players demeanor is immersive breaking, but to an extent isn't unrealistic, in a situation where someone is randomly confronted you both see each other, you wont have time to look these people up. thus you will be going off some type of reputation of this person as you see them, my rational for this is that word of bad people would get around, whether is from a note left in blood on a wall somewhere that is seen and perpetuated around, or is heard over a local radio broadcast, your physical character would know and you would have some type of brand appear with this player, it wouldn't be blatant as to say (player name) (Status:killer) in there name plate, but more like if this person is a huge murder(measured from a leader board) you would have some type of tip to allude to this and you can judge the situation accordingly, the more high profile; better the tip would be, simply because these people would be for lack of a better word more famous, there name, some type of symbol, ect would be recognizable to your character and would help you, and i say to your character because obviously you as a the player, wouldn't know everything about all players, as the humanity of characters would fluxuate due to players dying and there humanity for that character there reputation as you will, would be wiped clear. versus someone of low reputation, someone that is a new character, or doesn't have any bad humanity would present itself differently in that situation, maybe you are given a tip some how that this person should be trusted and then you are able to act accordingly, this is all on the idea that people in the dayz world's actions would leave a presents if you will, a history based on the fact that they have a presents left on the leader boards which you can use to help you. Now on the other hand, someone is spotted in a city and from someway you are able to find there name or something recognizable to look this person up, this isn't too unrealistic either, you can ask your friends or call around to figure out hey there is this shady guy here, i think i recognize this clan symbol or something, you have any idea if this guy is trustworthy, in which case translates too you simply looking him up and seeing, yeah this guys humanity is negative approach with caution, versus oh this guy is a saint, go give him a hug.

I hope this is an acquitted rebuttal and i try to argue the subject with realism and immersion in mind.

Edited February 22, 2013 by Hellfire447

[Clumzy (DayZ) 377]

my rational for this is that word of bad people would get around, whether is from a note left in blood on a wall somewhere that is seen and perpetuated around, or is heard over a local radio broadcast,

So why don't we add those things instead?

[Hellfire447 7]

T

So why don't we add those things instead?

Agreed, it's an interesting take on what they are planning on doing and that is there note system, they are planning on enabling players to be able to leave note for other players, and what i was thinking is that if a note is left behind proposing a outlook about a player, describing a description and reputation, an opinion of that player would this be a way to measure points to someones humanity. This is just one way to do this, obviously, there are many ways to communicate an opinion, so another way i was thinking to actually, realistically contribute to someones reputation is that if a claim is made to someones reputation, if the player dies with in a determined time frame, the claim is dis-noted, the rational behind this is that word of someones actions wouldn't be able to be spoken, or clues of there presents, their effect on the world wouldn't have existed, unless a note or some other discoverable clue is made, this is kinda like how when someone dies and you examine them you are able to see who killed them, this system was never perfected and thus, it never worked well, the cause of death of a player never seemed to work well for me when i tried to use it anyway. Furthermore, if a player makes a claim on someone, and are able to stay alive long enough, it could be the equivalent that you have spoken about this person and thus the ripple of communication would unfold and the possibility of the claim would be possible. Which case the claim can be made. On the note of leaving a clue about some person would be a sure way to make this claim because if someone would examine this clue it would be like if it was communicated.

[Steak and Potatoes 13480]

I like it your, posts are massive btw I hit clumzy's then moved the the next one and was like feck gotta read this bad boy two.

[HERBERT-THETREE 44]

I would have to say no to this. My reasons are as follows: 1.would the reputation be held by the player or the character i.e if that player died would he still have the same reputation when he spawned? If yes then your breaking the immersion, if no then i dont really see the point because then the fresh spawned player is registered as a survivor when hes really a bandit (problem also exists with current humanity system). 2. Any clue left behind by someone who was killed would need to be very descriptive in order to actually identify anyone, seeing as it would probobly be the last thing he/she did, the not/clue they left would most likely only be descriptive enough to tell the gender of their killer. 3. I dont like the idea of being able to look at someone and instantly know things about there past, yes you could come to certain conclusions based on their attire but looks can be very decieving. you simply cant just look at someone and know their intentions. 4. Because of the nature of Dayz, no organized settlements/comunities, and the only living people left (i know there not zombies but just roll with it, its easier) being us, the players, whom have limited contact with one another, the reputation of people would hardly spread if at all by word of mouth. 4. IMO, it would take the suspense of meeting other players away since you would already know about what kind of person he/she is.

lastly i know i can come across as an asshole at times, Its not intentional and i dont mean to offend. this is just my 2 cents.

[Hellfire447 7]

I would have to say no to this. My reasons are as follows: 1.would the reputation be held by the player or the character i.e if that player died would he still have the same reputation when he spawned? If yes then your breaking the immersion, if no then i dont really see the point because then the fresh spawned player is registered as a survivor when hes really a bandit (problem also exists with current humanity system). 2. Any clue left behind by someone who was killed would need to be very descriptive in order to actually identify anyone, seeing as it would probobly be the last thing he/she did, the not/clue they left would most likely only be descriptive enough to tell the gender of their killer. 3. I dont like the idea of being able to look at someone and instantly know things about there past, yes you could come to certain conclusions based on their attire but looks can be very decieving. you simply cant just look at someone and know their intentions. 4. Because of the nature of Dayz, no organized settlements/comunities, and the only living people left (i know there not zombies but just roll with it, its easier) being us, the players, whom have limited contact with one another, the reputation of people would hardly spread if at all by word of mouth. 4. IMO, it would take the suspense of meeting other players away since you would already know about what kind of person he/she is.

lastly i know i can come across as an asshole at times, Its not intentional and i don't mean to offend. this is just my 2 cents.

Hey Herbert, there isn't any need to apologize your opinion is completely valid and i'm excited to see people actually taking this idea into consideration, and if i may i will try and put things into better perspective so that things don't seem so cut and paste, because from what i can tell, you have a pretty clear idea how this will all work out, and i just want to say that this is all merely speculation and a defined and definitive system for this is no where near operation, and with that i ask if this system could be possible, because as i see it, it isn't a system like skins where you look at someone and it's black and white, but actually more like subtle advice that your character would be able to supply to you as the player, in how you can better deal with a situation.

Also with regards to the clue system and that entire mechanic, is just an example justifying how i felt the physical character would be able to give the player the information when dealing with reputation, and the reason for that is because immersion and realism make or break this game for me, and I don't want a system like the current one with only skins as a distinguishing fact for humanity, on its own it doesn't work, but if it had an additional system that would make it believable, adds to the immersion it would make sense, and i made this argument earlier when i was describing how players characters game play and choices would have an effect on there appearance and disposition, i can go more into this for the sake of making the argument if some would like this explained more, so really i was just trying to explain how such a mechanic could work because the character would have information and being the player playing him we would be able to use his knowledge.

Your first point is troubling me, it's undoubtedly true that reputation doesn't make sense to be persistent over multiple lives, but that is if we are measuring actions made in each life, and this isn't a system meant to judge each life it's to judge the player, and give players clues how they should interact with each other, My points on clues and actions that you do with your character to help identify each other is just an argument and yes it has a flaw, but this flaw only exists because players can re spawn as someone new, i'm delving into something much bigger then a humanity system at this point, i would be trying to make a rational explanation to re-spawning when the process itself is immersive breaking. This point isn't over, i really like the idea you tossed here, but i need time to think, and if anyone can make a better explanation i would love to hear it, this is after all an idea to help polish or even perfect a system that could have a huge effect on the game.

Will come back to this.

Your third point about having previous knowledge is interesting, but is this an instant process? You would have to do more research on someone if you wanted to know more then a small description of someone or even a word. But at that moment you would only have a very restricted idea about someone based on how well known that person could potentially be, and i want to rebuttal and say that, yes you can look at someone and know there intentions, it may not be complete picture but if someone dressed in head to toe body armor jumps out the back of a car, i know that he is here ready for combat, versus someone who is in a tang-top and sandals walking around with a flashlight versus an AR, this guy is not looking for trouble, purposely :D

And your fourth point is open for discussion in my opinion, the history and the world of dayz is still under development, maybe settlements ( bases?) is a possibility belive it or not but in a zombie Apocalypse there are going to be people that want to reestablish humanity, and these would be the people that would take these things into account. like i said this is all just starting to take form so to make an assertion like that is still quite ambiguous.

And again for fifth point, again you are interpreting that this system is going to unveil all secrets on someone on contact, unlike the current system where the progress of someones humanity is obvious, this system is going to give subtle hints on how you carry out the interaction, all dependent on the persons reputation, if after this idea gets thoroughly picked and smashed, makes sense to be the angle of implication.

Again Herbert I want to thank you for contributing to this idea, because as interesting and defensive as i am being, it's because i feel it has potential to have some type of implication on how the humanity system should function, and i'm not saying that this system is perfect or is the only way the humanity problem can be solved, but simply that as an idea that i am trying to convey, i want to make sure everyone is seeing this system as i am.

And about your point above, as of right now i am going to wait and see how others might answer that, because that is an answer i can't seem to convey as i see it in my head.

-Jesse