NO MORE BAMBIs!

[person915 345]

If this got implemented, no-one would let you get close enough before you attack them; making it null and void.

I mean, no-one walks up to you to kill you point blank do they!

That's why most things require one or more of the players to be still, as in, either they trust you, or you snuck up on them.

If you are in pain, panting, thirsty, hungry, or moving fast, your chances would be less likely to actually execute the move. Keep in mind, that the success rate should be far down anyways, as no one is a melee master by any means, and to simulate the specific circumstances requires the assumption that things will go wrong- a lot. I believe that these moves will be hard to execute anyway, without even hoping for the success rate to be in your favor.

I'd like to point out, also, that none of these moves kills anyone. You can disarm someone, sure, but unless you get the gun out of their hand right away, there's no chance of it going anywhere but to the floor after that.

Still, these moves are to give newbies a CHANCE, not a definite way or living, as well as give other players the ability to neutralize a target in a different way than killing, like say a hero would do. If you think about it, even if the moves fail, more often than not, you still would end up on top IRL, and still have the advantage you had before to take the guy out if all else fails.

Not to mention, unexpected combat would be the essence of this to work. Two players in the same house or coming around corners might not end up how you think, even if one has a gun. You can still run away then, and live, like you should have a chance to.

[person915 345]

It'd make CQC indoors a lot more interesting.

I'm still not keen on QTEs for retaliation, but I suppose that's unavoidable. (unless Q/E wiggle was enough to stop some n00b from taking your gun)

Knockdown/tackle should definitely have a cooldown to it,

Players turning juggernaut and just throwing zeds/players on their asses or off ledges all day would be a very important ability to balance.

Again, success rate. Shoving and kicking are desperation moves, when all else fails, or you have that one pesky zombie on your tale, like said in the OP.

I assume you are referring to Quick-Time-Events, in which I agree, I wouldn't like to see them in DayZ either. What I would suggest is adding some sort of reflex option though. Because, think about it: You are sniping, when all of a sudden, your player starts struggling, and you think "WTF is going on?". I believe the player should have to realize they're being attacked to be able to react, not figure it out while their character is doing it. Maybe just a simple click (that isn't telling you to do it on-screen) would suffice, and at that point your character would start struggling, and yours and the other's success rates would sort itself out. I think that counter moves should be something the victim will have to do themselves after they get out of the attack.

I also don't believe these moves should have cooldown. As they are very strenuous, I think they should lower the success rate of future moves for a set amount of time by a significant percentage, by making you exhausted, like when your character runs for a while.

Edited February 11, 2013 by McCullins

[person915 345]

I did that on a lot of pvp occasions in the whole OFP/ArmA history if the situation permitted it...mostly on wannabe snipers who forgot the most important rule when sniping.

I had a hatchet, started getting shot at in Elektro. Bandits at the barn who really didn't need to be in Elektro at all. I snuck around and saw the guy against a tree, scouting out for me. A man with an AK had distracted them, so I went around them on Dobry keeping to the trees. They didn't suspect a thing. I got to him, hatcheted him twice, noticing his M14 and coyote backpack, and see his friend run in. I hid behind a tree, and, not thinking, tried to run out at him. What I should have done is grabbed his M14 and shot his friend. If things had been different with these features, I would have gone for the silent strangle or disarm and taken the weapon, and maybe his friend wouldn't have seen the death message and not shown up. Even so, this is more proof that you get opportunities to use this kind of thing often and can be an effective way to go about doing things. Sometimes it won't work out, like the bandit friend, but with an M24 and M14 shooting at me, and sounding alike, I could only presume there was only 1 guy, so it was not a bad assumption at all. Things are more likely to go better in these situations.

Edited February 11, 2013 by McCullins

[person915 345]

All fairly good ideas, they will add to the other hundred or so melee based ideas, but still good.

I'd like to think these ideas are different as I wish them to blend in with the rest of DayZ, like melee with the hatchet and crowbar. I don't want to rely on use of UIs, special scripted events, only equations like those that keep you alive or kill you when a certain size bullet enters a certain part of your body from a certain distance at a certain speed. Like the other combat of the game. And, I'd also like to think, that unlike other ideas, this does not pertain specifically to the requirement of a completely unarmed body, nor does it pretain to the simple different style of killing. It is a way to 1) not lose humanity 2) neutralize targets quietly 3) give new players a chance against armed ones 4) support a new playstyle and get players thinking in different ways 5) provide more options than the linear "the only way to remove a threat is to erase it off the face of the earth"

Edited February 11, 2013 by McCullins

[person915 345]

i still would like to have a new item like a rope or handcuffs found in military bases to disarm a player entirely

if you can strangle a person and he is knocked out, what would stop you from using something to tie his hands and feet and shove him into your car?

you can allready do this, you just have to hit someone with a 7.62 gun from close range and can carry them aound and do pretty much everything with them, just that if you stop your car while they get concious again they can just hop out like nothing ever happened

with some way to restrain someone this would be a great idea, but without it becomes "just shoot everyone on sight who is closer than 20 meters"

This is a good idea, and again, it adds to the idea of what these mechanics would do. The player who is tied up would now be neutralized truly, and can be done with what they wish. Bandits can kidnap people, heroes can take someone down and tie them up, no longer a problem.

Perhaps there should be slight specialty items to support this playstyle, like one of those choking threads to increase the success rate of strangling (since you don't have to use your hands, and it's stronger), steel toed boots, and of course ropes (which should have the player be able to get out of if they "struggle" enough, which executes a very noticeable animation, and handcuffs, which there's not much getting out of without the key or steel pliers from a friend.

I think that these ideas fit into DayZ nicely, as if people could simply clock out their opponents, there'd be a lot more going on. Ransoms. Kidnapping. Hostages. Sheriffs. So much more, all in the DayZ spirit!

[maui.arupa@gmail.com 16]

This thread makes me dream of bars, locks, chokes, and ground and pound mechanics.

[Dylanco1 10]

Because a bambi is a player that spawns without a weapon. The player is now the weapon

Like a Crysis Nanosuit?

The should be this and stuff like climbing which is easier without a weapon (You could press Vault and lift yourself over cover if your about to clip with it or begin really slowly climbing a wall with very little grip and alot of pain so the Broken leg sound effect could play and you could risk falling to your death (higher with a Pistol until so fucking high you are a 1% success chance with the AS50/M107)) It kinda makes sense if your chasing some poor Little Newspawn for him to scramble over a K barrier and sprint down the street jumping as fast as his little legs will carry him over low down stuff (Vaultable and Not that hard to climb cover only if it requires effort you climb). It could also mean (and dont take offense in movie terms its this) "The Black guy" with the Makarov could not only out run the Bandits chasing him but be able to climb behind them and *Bang*

[rpatto92@hotmail.com 26]

I don't like the idea of leaving it to chance on whether or not you disarm, knock out or restrain a player; this is where mini games should have really came into their own. I think using a button timing or tapping system like you get in wrestling games would be perfect for grappling with another player; it'd be really lame if another player just ran up and knocked you out with no chance to defend yourself.

[person915 345]

I don't like the idea of leaving it to chance on whether or not you disarm, knock out or restrain a player; this is where mini games should have really came into their own. I think using a button timing or tapping system like you get in wrestling games would be perfect for grappling with another player; it'd be really lame if another player just ran up and knocked you out with no chance to defend yourself.

Want to hear a secret? Ok... here it is:

(Life's not fair!)

Sometimes guys sneak up behind you, chop you in the neck with their hand, and you have no way to defend yourself.

Now for the real reply. Why your argument is invalid (in my terms).

1) It's hard to do the moves.

Well, there you go. If you were a good player, you would know the guy was coming to try and CQC you. Basically, it's just at that point up to you're luck and his luck. You can both get out of it, or do it, sure, but whether you succeed is based on luck, and that close, if both know what they're doing skill doesn't really matter. It's gotta be player skill, the main reason.

2) When this happens to you, most likely you are trying to kill someone or are dangerous.

If you get CQC'd in a town that you KNOW has someone in it, you deserved it. It's not that hard to watch, and the victim moving drastically decreases the success rate.

3) Minigames in DayZ?

Pfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffft. Lol, that would be stupid. What happens when your wrestling on the floor and a zombie comes over? Another player? Yeah, good luck coding that in, getting it to work, making it fair, and making it liked. It's gotta be fast and simple, or it doesn't work. If the victim has time to struggle (which in my idea means they get away), then your opportunity is gone.

4) I did a thing where the player character shouldn't know what's going on if the user doesn't. Your character shouldn't start countering automatically, you should do it yourself, otherwise not. That guy who came outta nowhere just lost for even a more BS reason than chance, just because you knew it wouldn't matter, when you got the damn button tapping you could easily do it and win.

5) We're not talking to Mr. Death, here.

All these moves do not kill you, so chance isn't to bad, put up to your life. They could shoot you afterward, but if they had gotten any gun, even not yours, they would have done it anyway... so it really wouldn't matter there.

[Lordsarito 42]

This is kind of irrelevant, but can we stop referring to new players on the game as Bambis please? It's starting to get repulsive.

I still call them fresh-spawns. Never jumped on the bambi wagon.

It's such an arrogant term.

Edited February 15, 2013 by Lordsarito

[shadowleaper 22]

Cool ideas, but I'm not sure you realise how hard it is to find someone standing still/on the edge of something and not knowing you're there. These are big changes for something we'll hardly ever get round to trying/doing.

I do like your melee options though.

I had a similar idea, but I prefer the idea of bodies to degrade. Dead NPC characters in poses after zombie massacres... this way we can still scatter guns around like it's a new discovery and add more depth to the story of the game.

[person915 345]

Cool ideas, but I'm not sure you realise how hard it is to find someone standing still/on the edge of something and not knowing you're there. These are big changes for something we'll hardly ever get round to trying/doing.

The point is it's hard. These moves aren't supposed to be OP, that's why. They're a second line of defense. A last resort. Or, a new way of doing things. A way of neutralizing targets without killing them.

If they're in, trust me, you'll find a use for it.

[rpatto92@hotmail.com 26]

Want to hear a secret? Ok... here it is:

(Life's not fair!)

Sometimes guys sneak up behind you, chop you in the neck with their hand, and you have no way to defend yourself.

Now for the real reply. Why your argument is invalid (in my terms).

1) It's hard to do the moves.

Well, there you go. If you were a good player, you would know the guy was coming to try and CQC you. Basically, it's just at that point up to you're luck and his luck. You can both get out of it, or do it, sure, but whether you succeed is based on luck, and that close, if both know what they're doing skill doesn't really matter. It's gotta be player skill, the main reason.

2) When this happens to you, most likely you are trying to kill someone or are dangerous.

If you get CQC'd in a town that you KNOW has someone in it, you deserved it. It's not that hard to watch, and the victim moving drastically decreases the success rate.

3) Minigames in DayZ?

Pfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffft. Lol, that would be stupid. What happens when your wrestling on the floor and a zombie comes over? Another player? Yeah, good luck coding that in, getting it to work, making it fair, and making it liked. It's gotta be fast and simple, or it doesn't work. If the victim has time to struggle (which in my idea means they get away), then your opportunity is gone.

4) I did a thing where the player character shouldn't know what's going on if the user doesn't. Your character shouldn't start countering automatically, you should do it yourself, otherwise not. That guy who came outta nowhere just lost for even a more BS reason than chance, just because you knew it wouldn't matter, when you got the damn button tapping you could easily do it and win.

5) We're not talking to Mr. Death, here.

All these moves do not kill you, so chance isn't to bad, put up to your life. They could shoot you afterward, but if they had gotten any gun, even not yours, they would have done it anyway... so it really wouldn't matter there.

Hold back your immature hostilities; I'm not attacking you or your concept, I'm offering an opinion to refine it with. I think the way your idea is currently described would cause massive balancing issues. Basing a one hit kill (which is essentially what an instant knock out would amount too); in a game where a characters life is more meaningful than any other existing game. Is an absolute game breaking flaw, in any game let alone one with permanent death; were it would be intolerable for any player. Also to add in a variable that it might happen based on a random chance; would be mind bendingly frustrating for any player no matter which side of the engagement they fall on because whoever looses, will most likely end up being dead as a direct result.

What i'm saying is: I like the idea of some sort of advanced hand to hand combat or non lethal attacks for player without weapons but what I'm trying to get across is I'd much rather the system be based on actual player actions being successful as apposed to them trying their luck and seeing what happens. Equally if the player being attacked is aware of it; they should be able to avoid it if possible, by their own actions. When suggesting a sort of "mini game" (I wasn't suggesting a prompt or an automatic get of jail free card; I mean to provide the player with tools to do so, if they are able to) or wrestling game style combat system to provide that player functionality; I mean to assume that all parties would not necessarily have equal opportunity to do so (in other words don't prompt a player to attack or defend themselves; just give them the ability too and the rest of the time leave them in the dark)

Words of wisdom: skill based "anything" will never be apart of DayZ; it goes against everything Rocket is attempting to create in Standalone, all of these mechanics in his opinion (not mine) should be player based and organic.

[Maxgor 2314]

Bambie is still the worst term for a new spawn, always will be lol

I think at most, there should be punching. Its obviously the weakest form of attack in the game, but its a simple mechanic that allows a person to fight off a zombie, maybe it takes four or fight hits to kill one, way more for people, but gives them at the very least a basic form of attack. Plus it'll just be funny to see the inevitable badass who uses nothing but this fists to survive lol

[person915 345]

Hold back your immature hostilities; I'm not attacking you or your concept, I'm offering an opinion to refine it with. I think the way your idea is currently described would cause massive balancing issues. Basing a one hit kill (which is essentially what an instant knock out would amount too); in a game where a characters life is more meaningful than any other existing game. Is an absolute game breaking flaw, in any game let alone one with permanent death; were it would be intolerable for any player. Also to add in a variable that it might happen based on a random chance; would be mind bendingly frustrating for any player no matter which side of the engagement they fall on because whoever looses, will most likely end up being dead as a direct result.

What i'm saying is: I like the idea of some sort of advanced hand to hand combat or non lethal attacks for player without weapons but what I'm trying to get across is I'd much rather the system be based on actual player actions being successful as apposed to them trying their luck and seeing what happens. Equally if the player being attacked is aware of it; they should be able to avoid it if possible, by their own actions. When suggesting a sort of "mini game" (I wasn't suggesting a prompt or an automatic get of jail free card; I mean to provide the player with tools to do so, if they are able to) or wrestling game style combat system to provide that player functionality; I mean to assume that all parties would not necessarily have equal opportunity to do so (in other words don't prompt a player to attack or defend themselves; just give them the ability too and the rest of the time leave them in the dark)

Words of wisdom: skill based "anything" will never be apart of DayZ; it goes against everything Rocket is attempting to create in Standalone, all of these mechanics in his opinion (not mine) should be player based and organic.

One hit-kill. How. Many. Times. Do. I. Have. To. Say. It?

None of these moves kill you. They only knock you out. They are hard to do, and very situational. VERY. The only way you should be getting killed by any is if YOU made some mistake, making your death essentially your fault. You leave your flank open and unchecked for 5 mins while sniping? Your fault. You stop to loot a dead player in the street and don't look around? Your fault.

See what I'm saying? It's not OP. Strangling requires it to be stealth, which most likely in combat, and especially in most situations with newspawns, it isn't. Pushing someone just knocks them on their ass, doesn't even do anything else, allowing for you to get away and not get shot. Disarming.... do you know how hard it is to wrestle a gun out of someone's hands? You're better off putting a finger to their head and telling them to do it themselves, lol.

About the chance vs. skill. The skill is you getting close to do the moves. The positions have to be right, the speed has to be right, you have to really know what you're doing and execute it quickly. IRL, even if you do those things, they might still go wrong. And they do- a lot.

Not only with the fact that it might not matter if you were really skilled and you still failed, but that simulating skill in this kind of combat in a game has not been done very well at all, unless the game has tons of quick-times in which that shows reflex, not strength, quick thinking, and strategy which you need more of in a fight than anything. I think it's better to simulate it based on your chances if everyone was in the same boat. Sometimes you just don't win, and there's no reason why.

Not to mention, that some players aren't good at quick times and button mashing. You can't really get better at those things. There's just a certain point where you stop, and it's a skill in terms to the player that not everyone is equal at (which is good) but you can't improve on (which makes it unfair) as if it's a skill and meant to be used this way getting better at it should be an available option. There isn't one I can see that fits DayZ. So I dunno what you want from me.... Lee.

And sorry for the immaturity in the last post (and maybe a bit in the beginning of this one) I was pissed off.

Edited February 16, 2013 by McCullins

[rpatto92@hotmail.com 26]

One hit-kill. How. Many. Times. Do. I. Have. To. Say. It?

None of these moves kill you. They only knock you out. They are hard to do, and very situational. VERY. The only way you should be getting killed by any is if YOU made some mistake, making your death essentially your fault. You leave your flank open and unchecked for 5 mins while sniping? Your fault. You stop to loot a dead player in the street and don't look around? Your fault.

See what I'm saying? It's not OP. Strangling requires it to be stealth, which most likely in combat, and especially in most situations with newspawns, it isn't. Pushing someone just knocks them on their ass, doesn't even do anything else, allowing for you to get away and not get shot. Disarming.... do you know how hard it is to wrestle a gun out of someone's hands? You're better off putting a finger to their head and telling them to do it themselves, lol.

About the chance vs. skill. The skill is you getting close to do the moves. The positions have to be right, the speed has to be right, you have to really know what you're doing and execute it quickly. IRL, even if you do those things, they might still go wrong. And they do- a lot.

Not only with the fact that it might not matter if you were really skilled and you still failed, but that simulating skill in this kind of combat in a game has not been done very well at all, unless the game has tons of quick-times in which that shows reflex, not strength, quick thinking, and strategy which you need more of in a fight than anything. I think it's better to simulate it based on your chances if everyone was in the same boat. Sometimes you just don't win, and there's no reason why.

Not to mention, that some players aren't good at quick times and button mashing. You can't really get better at those things. There's just a certain point where you stop, and it's a skill in terms to the player that not everyone is equal at (which is good) but you can't improve on (which makes it unfair) as if it's a skill and meant to be used this way getting better at it should be an available option. There isn't one I can see that fits DayZ. So I dunno what you want from me.... Lee.

And sorry for the immaturity in the last post (and maybe a bit in the beginning of this one) I was pissed off.

I can tell just from reading the opening to your reply; you hardly even paid any attention to my post, the guy that gave me his beans on the other hand, clearly did.

You don't need to be pissed; i like the idea but it needs to be refined and you haven't yet got into the specific's of the mechanics. If it is going to work as a feature; it needs a solid platform. First of all Rocket wouldn't even entertain the idea of basing combat of off probability or skill "points"; if it stands a chance of being taken on board it would need to be as player based skill and as organic as possible. So in other words very much player based; "quick time events" are just one possibility, not the best but still better than probability based events.

Example of how I could see this working:

Grapple or choke: Approach a player from behind, use scroll wheel to activate action, then use LMB and RMB to control grip and move mouse to control hold position; if the victim can use the same actions to release themselves quickly enough, they can escape.

[person915 345]

I can tell just from reading the opening to your reply; you hardly even paid any attention to my post, the guy that gave me his beans on the other hand, clearly did.

You don't need to be pissed; i like the idea but it needs to be refined and you haven't yet got into the specific's of the mechanics. If it is going to work as a feature; it needs a solid platform. First of all Rocket wouldn't even entertain the idea of basing combat of off probability or skill "points"; if it stands a chance of being taken on board it would need to be as player based skill and as organic as possible. So in other words very much player based; "quick time events" are just one possibility, not the best but still better than probability based events.

Example of how I could see this working:

Grapple or choke: Approach a player from behind, use scroll wheel to activate action, then use LMB and RMB to control grip and move mouse to control hold position; if the victim can use the same actions to release themselves quickly enough, they can escape.

Ok... when did I ever say anything about skillpoints? You are misinterpreting what I say. I mean player skill. As in real skill. For instance, marksmanship. In ArmA, you get better at marksmanship (hitting people with your bullets) by doing it more often. That's how this feature needs to be. So I think you just misunderstand me.

I, however, love that idea in the spoiler. I think it's excellent. Kinda like an MGS sort of thing and I think that it would blend in fine, if using regular ArmA scroll wheels and controls like you say it would.

Edited February 16, 2013 by McCullins

[rpatto92@hotmail.com 26]

Ok... when did I ever say anything about skillpoints? You are misinterpreting what I say. I mean player skill. As in real skill. For instance, marksmanship. In ArmA, you get better at marksmanship (hitting people with your bullets) by doing it more often. That's how this feature needs to be. So I think you just misunderstand me.

I, however, love that idea in the spoiler. I think it's excellent. Kinda like an MGS sort of thing and I think that it would blend in fine, if using regular ArmA scroll wheels and controls like you say it would.

Yes i think we completely misunderstood each other and that's the source of our problem. Glad you like the concept on how I envisioned it working; though I think it might be time to make a thread up-date and jump in to specific mechanics of your system.

You can quote or draw from my concept if you like.

[mr_chabowski@live.co.uk 2416]

Sorry to butt in, but I think you should keep this discussion the way it is (disagreements and all) and let people come to their own conclusions.

I'm sure everyone has their own vision of how such a system would perform and IMO differing views are far more useful when exploring new ideas.

No need to take it too seriously or go back to the drawing board just yet.

I like where this is heading.

[person915 345]

Sorry to butt in, but I think you should keep this discussion the way it is (disagreements and all) and let people come to their own conclusions.

I'm sure everyone has their own vision of how such a system would perform and IMO differing views are far more useful when exploring new ideas.

No need to take it too seriously or go back to the drawing board just yet.

I like where this is heading.

Ok, so an official announcement from the OP:

This thread is at a standstill to preserve the original idea and keep it from becoming to narrow and linear in how everything should be performed. Discussions can still take place on this, but mechanics will not be added/updated to the original thread, and discussions are preferred to pretain to situations these kinds of things could be used, how it could benefit/not benefit the community, and other opinions on the subject.

Stopping the progression of mechanics in this thread will make it an idea more people can agree on and develop themselves, allowing for a wider perspective and more information to actually be put into a finished product (if it becomes a feature).

I thank you all for coming!