Suggestions to Rocket from a REAL HC player; Reactions to latest patch

[allbusiness 5]

After playing abit more after the hotfix, here's a really long winded ass commentary on what I feel Rocket should move towards, as I feel it's a more logical, more fun, and more challenging (not difficult, challenging) simulation.

1. Vision

Current Zombie/Infected vision is still wonky as shit. It's not even remotely close to realistic. Although I understand it is a hotfix, it's still kind of dumb that it's so easy to lose them by just glitching their LOS with walls, trees, etc. This makes no sense at all. Somehow the Zeds can still me from quite a distance off IF facing me, and yet can't put two and two together that I simply disappeared right behind a damn tree right in front of it. I thought they were suppose to have heightened senses in terms of smell and sound... if you're that close, you shouldn't be able to lose them that easily if they can hear and smell better than your normal average human being.

Not to mention, if these are more akin to Infected like in 28 days later, they shouldn't stop "investigating" just because you disappeared behind a tree proned. That's stupid. It just allows players that know the game mechanics to abuse even harder, because now you can actually loot towns way faster than you could before, especially if you don't have any gear on you. You're better off running in, aggroing maybe 2-3, grabbing whatever you need inside the building, getting out, and then losing the zomebies through LOS, which is ridiculously easy to do if you know how to abuse the current LOS mechanics.

Suggestion to fix this :

First and foremost, the zombie vision needs to be toned down. I know alot of the "hardcore" players will jump out and say "YOU'RE NOT FUCKING HARDCORE YOU'RE JUST A CAREBEAR." No; I'm not a carebear. I've played games all my life, and I've played various amount of "hardcore" and "oldschool" games ranging from Ultima Online, Everquest, the Fallout Series (as in 1 and 2, not the shitty Bethesda rehash), various console games like Ghouls n Goblins, Contra, etc. etc. I can recognize when a game mechanic isn't working properly or in a way that is logical or consistent with the lore of the game. If this is to be a simulation, then we need to make sure that we are consistent with the most general accepted rules of Infected/Zombie lore.

From 28 days to Dawn of the Dead, zombie/infected vision hasn't always been the sharpest, especially at a distance. I understand that you don't want people having free roam of cities with just instastealth mode (aka prone). However, upping their vision distance is not the way to go about it. Zombie detection based on vision should be fairly short, no more than maybe 15m or so. Possibly even shorter. People will of course, cry foul to this and say that this would make the game too easy. Continue reading my suggestion please. What I believe Rocket should do is re implement the "eyes" approach (as in Zombies use their eyes as their vision, and not body direction), but with that much shorter distance. IMO, this will not only solve the "seeing your ass from a mile" issue, but it would also put an end to alot of the idiotic stealthing that we saw in previous patches. Although the detection radius based on vision would be short, the Zombies would have EXTREMELY sensitive detection within a short range, which would in fact actually somewhat simulate smell, which is a concept I believe Rocket wanted to implement in the game somehow. It would completely put an end to people literally stealth prone 3-5 feet away from a zombie, but also would stop alot of the super eagle eye vision that people are still currently experiencing.

Of course people will then say, but hey, even though they have a super short sensitive range based on their "vision", they are still relatively harmless if you can keep a distance away from them. That's true. But everyone knows that Zombies/Infected are hardly ever triggered by eye sight unless you're just a complete dumbass in the films/literature/etc. Most Zombies/Infected are triggered by sound. This brings me to my next point.

2. Sound

I always thought it was weird as shit that pistols had a ridiculously "lower" volume than say a Rifle or SMG. A gun is a gun, and if it goes off in an empty city where not much is moving, it's gonna echo off and everything within a 6-8 block radius should hear it. Also, I found it weird that I can actually make quiet abit of noise with bushes, stairs, ladders, etc. and still not aggro Zombies/Infected that are actually quite close to me. Now, granted the current sound mechanics are also a little wacky like the vision mechanics, but I seriously believe that Zombie "sound" mechanics are abit on the weak side. If I let off a pistol round in the city, pretty much every Zombie should be on the loose, riled up, and heading in the GENERAL direction of where I shot. They shouldn't be able to have pinpoint where I am, but they SHOULD move towards me in an attempt to investigate what is occuring on. Right now, with a Makarov or a G17, you can actually let off quite a few rounds, and Zombies/Infected that are within viewing distance (possibly like 50m or so or maybe a little bit more) actually do not react at all when they absolutely should, especially since that would be the case in the films, lore, etc.

Suggestion :

Zombies/Infected need to have EXTREMELY sensitive hearing. They are more feral/animal like than we as humans right? They should be able to hear from a TREMENDOUS range. Though they shouldn't be able to pinpoint your general direction, the whole city should come running in your general direction if you let even a Makarov (one of the quieter guns in the game) in the middle of the city go off. This would put an end to most if not all banditry in the coastal towns/major cities, but it would also force you to think twice about utilizing a weapon while in the town and come up with creative solutions. It would also make tin can throwing, etc. a much more viable solution to things. Also, they should be EXTREMELY sensitive to your pro typical running/walking noise, especially on sidewalks and hard surfaces. This makes looting in the city legitimately dangerous. Like really fucking dangerous. It means you have to move slow, time your movements, while also utilizing creative tactics to get around Zeds in the city unlike the current state of the game where I see more people run and LOS glitch than actually sneaking around. Also, if you're moving too fast say in grass, you should honestly make a shit ton of noise, and Zombies should come to investigate. I haven't put much more thought into this other than "Zeds should have ridiculously sensitive hearing although shouldn't be able to laser pinpoint you," but I think alot of people can agree with me on this one.

3. Number of Zeds versus Ammo Spawned

There are too few Zeds that spawn at the moment. Way too few. For the amount of ammunition that you can pick up, and the type of weaponry you can pick up early on, Zeds pose little to no trouble at the moment when you are detected, even with the great amount of damage that they can do right now. This is especially true if you are in a group and have 4x the amount of firepower a solo player would have. Not to mention that it's hilarious that you can just kite Zeds up steep hills, narrow hallways, etc. and just gun them down over and over with your sidearm / primary if you're looking to farm beans/soda cans.

Suggestion to fix :

Either one, increase the number of Zeds that spawn, or simply reduce the amount of ammunition that spawns. Now, I know alot of the so called "hardcore" players will say reduce the ammunition spawned. However, if I know anything, these same "hardcore" players will say "man up scrubs" and laugh because they have stockpiles of supplies. The second they are forced to completely start over though (someone may raid their loot, etc. etc.), they will start bitching about how there's so little amount of ammo. Not to mention, that we want new players to make choices, whether they are stupid or not. Crippling new players with artificial difficulty is not the way to go; crippling them with realistic mechanics though on the other hand.... that's both fun, and logical. The number of Zeds should be RAMPED up significantly, especially in cities. To compensate, reduce the spawn rate, but obviously make sure a shitload spawn, like 2k+ (hell maybe even 3k+ if that's possible on the ArmA 2 engine). What does this do? It allows players the opportunity to grab supplies, ammunition, etc., but they have to go through a dangerous amount of Zombies to do it. If they get caught with their pants down, they'll likely die due to the fact that they expended all their ammunition fighting their way out, or will have little to show for their trip into the city/high traffic areas. This means that people will have to use STEALTH, and not run around and try to LOS the Zeds that spawn. Also, it means that organized groups will have a much tougher time simply waltzing into a city, taking over, gunning all the Zeds down while collecting their loot. Hell, maybe even make it so when a gunshot goes off, 30+ Zeds spawn nearby on alert status. Would make for interesting gameplay.

This also would make player killing in the city extremely dangerous, especially if Rocket implemented super sensitive hearing on Zombies that can hear even pistols from a very far distance off. Bandits that are within city zones/camping at certain buildings such as the Fire Stations/Churches/Hospital Roofs/Apartments/etc. would likely all but abandon pking inside the city. It would also put an end to alot of the Makarov deathmatches that occur in the city. Any sort of gunshot should be either a death sentence, or SEVERELY punishing. Elektro, Cherno, etc. would be literal death traps for the CORRECT reasons, and not for the WRONG reasons. In a real life zombie apocalypse, thieves, bandits, etc. would AVOID being in the city or even remotely close to the city. They would wait for you to leave and enter an area that is free of Zeds, relatively open, and would take you out there. Right now, Bandits are simply camping it out in cities right now because the Zeds are mostly harmless at this point, and are not much of a threat because Bandits come with way too much ammunition for the amount of Zeds that spawn.

4. Change what you spawn with. It's not realistic. Period. Although I understand that people want a "hardcore" experience, you also have to be realistic and LOGICALLY CONSISTENT with traditional zombie/infected lore for the mod to be a TRUE simulation. Indeed there's nothing realistic about everyone running around with pistols, but there's also nothing realistic about walking around the zombie apocalypse without food, water, or a means of protection. You start out with none of those things now, and I'm pretty sure all of us in a real life situation would at the very least pack a little bit of food and water before taking off for the wilderness, while also trying to find some means of protection, whether it's a melee or ranged weapon. Giving people say this :

1. One Makarov Mag, One Makarov

2. One Can of Beans

3. One Can of Soda

4. A Flashlight/Maybe Roadflares instead of Flashlight

5. Painkillers

6. 1 set of Bandages

Is both realistic and logically consistent for the most part. Not everyone has a first aid kit at home, so it's unrealistic for you to spawn with medical supplies, especially advanced medical supplies like morphine, bloodbags, etc. Although there would be still SOME Makarov deathmatching, I think alot of people would seriously think twice about shooting another person when you only have one magazine. Before you used to spawn with way too many, and that was what lead to the Makarov deathmatches, not the fact that you actually spawned with one. The rest of the supplies are all what you would expect in an every day household, canned food, maybe some sort of form of bottled/canned water/soda, and of course some OTC painkillers.

This way, at least you have some sort of defense early on, but it's a last resort especially in Zombie infested areas, and the limited amount of bullets forces people to choose whether or not to expend their rounds or not. Also, the limited resources means you will be forced to go into towns, cities, etc. and likely cooperate with others. You'll still have the Makarov to defend yourself with against other "low tier" bandits, but won't have enough to just unload relentlessly like before. There's NOTHING hardcore about spawning with no defensive mechanism. There's nothing hardcore about running away from zombies and abusing poor LOS mechanics to get away from them. What is hardcore is having to intelligently ration the resources that you are given from the beginning while being rewarded for making smart decisions, while being punished severely for bad decisions; being spawned with a hopeless situation isn't hardcore, it just makes for difficult and unchallenging and tedious gameplay. The people who have survived at this point in the Zombie Apocalypse wouldn't be "hopeless," because they are the ones who are smart enough, strong enough, etc. to make it this far.

Overall I think that that this is what I feel should occur. You are free to disagree, but I definitely feel like the vision / sound / spawn mechanics if implemented would make a more immersive and realistic atmosphere. It would also make things much more challenging, especially in cities and other high population areas. I believe that the vision/sound/spawn mechanics that I detailed are for the most part logically consistent with most zombie/infected psychopathic killer lore. Feel free to correct me though.

[Legacy (DayZ) 1091]

Shitty post deleted.

I'm glad you spent the time to write up detailed thought about your suggestion towards this patch.

[Strategos (DayZ) 190]

Good job there's a suggestions forum eh ;)

"you also have to be realistic and LOGICALLY CONSISTENT with traditional zombie/infected lore for the mod to be a TRUE simulation. "

So your saying in order to be realistic this game needs to be like other fictional zombie stories / games / films. That really doesn't hold up as an argument.

"Indeed there's nothing realistic about everyone running around with pistols, but there's also nothing realistic about walking around the zombie apocalypse without food, water, or a means of protection. You start out with none of those things now, and I'm pretty sure all of us in a real life situation would at the very least pack a little bit of food and water before taking off for the wilderness"

How do you know what's realistic about how you start this game ? Do you know how you got on that beach ? No you don't.

Did you get washed up? Swim from a boat? Get drugged and dumped there as some evil experiment ? Your making alot of assumptions there to make a really bad argument.

[allbusiness 5]

Good job there's a suggestions forum eh ;)

"you also have to be realistic and LOGICALLY CONSISTENT with traditional zombie/infected lore for the mod to be a TRUE simulation. "

So your saying in order to be realistic this game needs to be like other fictional zombie stories / games / films. That really doesn't hold up as an argument.

"Indeed there's nothing realistic about everyone running around with pistols' date=' but there's also nothing realistic about walking around the zombie apocalypse without food, water, or a means of protection. You start out with none of those things now, and I'm pretty sure all of us in a real life situation would at the very least pack a little bit of food and water before taking off for the wilderness"

How do you know what's realistic about how you start this game ? Do you know how you got on that beach ? No you don't.

Did you get washed up? Swim from a boat? Get drugged and dumped there as some evil experiment ? Your making alot of assumptions there to make a really bad argument.

[/quote']

It's late at night. Didn't mean to post it here. Lol. A moderator can move it I think. A better title would be "suggestions/reactions to recent patch/hotfix."

Two, in order to be realistic, you need to start off somewhere. If you're just making shit up on the fly, we might as well be fighting rainbows and unicorns for all we care, because if we're not basing anything off the traditional zombie apocalypse lore, then why are we playing in the rulesets of a "zombie apocalypse simulator"?

[kissa3 1]

A ship.

What do you take with you on a ship?

You know why ship? Because you don't spawn in the wilderness as you stated.

You begin your trip without nothing after a ship wreck or being tossed off it. The ship. How many people carry guns on a cruise? When they go fishing?

It's not the zombie lore you should be wondering about. The shipwrecked survivor is not the one who has been there from the start. I extremely enjoy spawning with nothing. Hugging, almost swimming along side the coast line to avoid zombies, getting to the city (Cherno or Elektro), staking out it from the hill, checking zombie patterns and then making my move in to the dangerous, red alert zone.

The thing about the sound and sight i agree with. I can crouch run 10 feet behind a zombie while being chased and not alert it. Also soft flesh decays faster, so eyes would be the first thing to go.

[allbusiness 5]

A ship.

What do you take with you on a ship?

You know why ship? Because you don't spawn in the wilderness as you stated.

You begin your trip without nothing after a ship wreck or being tossed off it. The ship. How many people carry guns on a cruise? When they go fishing?

It's not the zombie lore you should be wondering about. The shipwrecked survivor is not the one who has been there from the start. I extremely enjoy spawning with nothing. Hugging' date=' almost swimming along side the coast line to avoid zombies, getting to the city (Cherno or Elektro), staking out it from the hill, checking zombie patterns and then making my move in to the dangerous, red alert zone.

The thing about the sound and sight i agree with. I can crouch run 10 feet behind a zombie while being chased and not alert it. Also soft flesh decays faster, so eyes would be the first thing to go.

[/quote']

I could agree with the "shipwreck" theory being implemented in the game. That at least makes sense and has some logical consistency to it. However, if you were shipwrecked, you would literally start off with nothing but the clothes on your back. If we're going to go from this direction, then I think we need to go all the way, and not half ass it at all. You'd also be wet, likely to catch a cold of some sort, etc. Now, I wouldn't mind dealing with something like this, and obviously it would be real annoying to start off with nothing, but to be honest with you, with the amount of supplies you start off with right now, you might as well start with nothing.

[Legacy (DayZ) 1091]

Edit your own title.

Thread Moved.

[RJLupin2 3]

(as in 1 and 2' date=' not the shitty Bethesda rehash)[/quote']

I stopped reading here^

(Loljk, but seriously, no need to insult the game just because it's not isometric and canonically weak... but anyway...)

I appreciate the way you've gone about this post. You're really giving constructive feedback the best way possible (even though I don't agree with everything you've said.)

My argument against your one Mak, one mag scenario is that what makes spawning without a weapon so thrilling is that you have to breach the barrier of getting a weapon to even use ammo. Weapons are hard to find, even a Makarov. Makarov mags are literally everywhere, too, so spawning with a Mak will just revert it back to the way it was, with just a little more risk than before, even if you had 0 clips.

Spawning without a weapon is seriously one of the best ways I've played this game! I'll take any weapon I can find, even a crossbow! Without a weapon, everyone is desperate.

[Matterthief 0]

How do you know what's realistic about how you start this game ? Do you know how you got on that beach ? No you don't.

Did you get washed up? Swim from a boat? Get drugged and dumped there as some evil experiment ? Your making alot of assumptions there to make a really bad argument.

If the world is ravaged by a virus that wiped out pretty much the entirity of the human population, why the fuck anyone would would go anywhere without some form of protection? It's not some experiment or some local infection, the FRONT PAGE of the Day Z website states that it is global. How about we go to the logical conclusion to the shipwreck theory.

You won't be wearing a backpack and you start with no bandages, coyote pack, or flashlight and you start off with nearly red food and dehydration, that will pretty much sum up the average person washed ashore. Last time I checked, Day Z was suppose to be a videogame, not Masochist Self Gratifying Time Waster.

[Heme (DayZ) 0]

I agree with your general ideas, reduced sight range and enhanced hearing range are both good ideas and I like the idea that letting off a round in city would bring every zombie within wide radius to investigate. That is indeed investigate, not homing in on you. Also sounds like going thru foliage and bushes makes sense but crouching/walking on hard surface lets off way too much sound already and there's no reason to enhance that. You can really move quietly, even upright, if you have to.

1. One Makarov Mag' date=' One Makarov

2. One Can of Beans

3. One Can of Soda

4. A Flashlight/Maybe Roadflares instead of Flashlight

5. Painkillers

6. 1 set of Bandages

Is both realistic and logically consistent for the most part.

[/quote']

I just spawned with painkillers, flashlight, bandage and ofc the backpack. I like the no-weapon thingy, it's really awesome and don't ever bring the makarov back in starting gear. I'd, however, like to see compass, matches and the knife added to it. The current gear makes little sense to me since the guy has a backpack and some stuff with him so he obviously knows he's heading off for a time and might need some supplies. Now who would really head off like that without matches, knife and compass? Also one set of food and bottle of drink would be nice, I've now spent an hour crawling in cherno and looted _every_ major place there but have found nothing edible but for a can of coke. After finding guns nuff for small army, ghillie, camo, alice and bunch of other good stuff the lack of food and drink seems bit obscure.

[moriak 35]

Last time I checked' date=' Day Z was suppose to be a videogame, not Masochist Self Gratifying Time Waster.

[/quote']

This wasn't really supposed to be a game, it's more of an anti-game.

[Tyrog 10]

I mostly agree with your ideas. Sorry for my first reply, I was in a trolling mood...

I like the minimum gear approach, but spawning with no weapon is fine with me. Not everyone has a weapon (Americans?). Finding a weapon should be the most rewarding thing ever. Before it was just taken for granted (a shitty weapon though) and people abused of this " spawn = weapon " mechanism, cue freshly spawned survivors wars.

I like your sound idea. I don't have much to add. Zombie should be more aware of sounds but shouldn't be able to pinpoint exactly where it comes from. The time it takes for the zombie to get to you, you should have the time to hide.

A lot more zombies is also a great idea :D