Decrease number of psychopaths with Karma system

[LansEllion 1]

I know people have argued the whole bandit/hero idea and whether or not to punish bandits to death but I had a different take on the issue. One big problem with day Z is the high percentage of psychopaths (people with no sense that killing is wrong and who kill other people merely for fun). Day Z is supposed to be a survival simulator that simulates a real life survival situation but the problem is the percentage of psychopaths in Day Z appears to be much higher than we see in real life. This is obviously because in real life most people have some sort of moral sense that it is wrong to kill and so tend to avoid doing so. However, in a video game there is no real moral reason not to kill, because its just a game, and thus we end up with a higher percentage of those who feel no moral aversion to killing another player. Of course some players don't kill because they enjoy helping others and that's just how they play. But, it would be nice to do something to add back in a little bit sense of "its wrong to kill" into the game and I think an unseen karma system could do this.

A Karma system could simply create random bad luck that might happen or might not happen to players who do things that we typically think of as morally wrong that persists even after you die and respawn. For example, a person with low Karma might suddenly be heard by Zombies that wouldn't have otherwise heard them, they might get hungry faster, they might get sick for no reason, their car might break for no reason, they might spawn in bad locations, might spawn in surrounded by zombies, break a leg more easily, or nothing might happen. Bad Karma could be worse from sniping players or shooting unarmed players, etc. and Bad Karma should be hard to detect so players will only wonder "was that bad luck from when I sniped that survivor who just started?" And the Karmic reaction could get worse depending on how bad of things you have done. On the other hand some bad players might never get bad luck from their bad Karma. And players also shouldn't be able to tell if they have bad or good karma or even whether this system actually exists in the game. This system would work best if it was never announced and simply added and then over time people would slowly realize that murderers have worse luck in the game.

The whole point of the system would be to create a vague sense that its wrong to murder and something bad might happen if you do it but at the same time you might get away with it. In real life many people are superstitious, religious, or have other beliefs that prevent them from killing and make them think they will be punished in the after life if they do kill (Karma would literally allow punishing in the next life). Adding in a hidden Karma system that might give bad luck to murderers could add that extra second to pause before shooting and wonder if its worth it while at the same time it probably won't worry those who are killing in self defense. This also avoids more unrealistic solutions like bandit skins. And just maybe it might reduce the number of psychopaths to a more realistic level.

[captainwaffles 41]

Its not going to happen its still punishing bandits. anyway why are people still posting these punishment has already been beatan to death

[Goggalor 191]

Day Z is supposed to be a survival simulator that simulates a real life survival situation but the problem is the percentage of psychopaths in Day Z appears to be much higher than we see in real life.

The thing is we aren't living in a post apocalyptic setting, so you can't really compare the two. Plus, if society doesn't exist who is there to say what's right and what's wrong? In the apocalypse there would be no punishment for murder unless someone caught you and decided to punish you (which can totally happen in the game).

I'm not even a bandit, but I don't want them to be punished by the game just because some people don't like it.

["Lost" Alice 205]

Its not going to happen its still punishing bandits. anyway why are people still posting these punishment has already been beatan to death

While I agree with the Cap'n about the whole 'we can't punish bandits' thing.

I think LansEllion has put a lot more thought and organization into his Karma idea than most other threads

[Mos1ey 6301]

While I agree with the Cap'n about the whole 'we can't punish bandits' thing.

I think LansEllion has put a lot more thought and organization into his Karma idea than most other threads

It's still just not what DayZ is about. You can't punish players for a certain playstyle, there has to be absolute freedom.

I'd like to see some kind of ADVANTAGE to helping random people, not a DISADVANTAGE to killing people.

[Venzire 76]

There are already advantages and disadvantages to killing people. Bandit mask= higher chance of being shot at and the Hero skin well you know, hero skin!!

Also the fact that there are other people near you that heard the gun fire... So many other factors go into it, I can't be bothered to say them all with my crappy replacement keyboard today. (I want my G110 back...)

I do like the karma Idea, it needs to be thought on upon this thread. This thread is going somewhere bad and good. (I might come back and write up my thoughts on this system when I get my keyboard back.)

Edited October 30, 2012 by Venzire

[mr_chabowski@live.co.uk 2416]

You can't punish players for a certain playstyle, there has to be absolute freedom.

I agree that there should be no mechanic to prevent anybody from playing as they see fit, but I believe some incentive, to keep from murdering everything you see, will become necessary eventually.

The sheer number of players who would kill you as soon as look at you guarantees heroes are constantly punished for trying to help people.

[Rastamaus 323]

thing is dude, killing is fun, it might be something of an inconvenience to the person that's killed (believe me i know all about it) but for the killer it's pure lulz, sometimes the victims rage makes it even more fun and just serves to encourage more killing.

As long as pointing a gun at another player, taking careful aim and pulling that trigger, as long as that oh so satisfying sound of the gunshot and the victims direct chat abuse inspire so much merriment and mirth (and that will be forever), then people who don't like to die will keep on grumbling, until, like i did, they grow some balls and start killing before they themselves get killed. And then they too will giggle a little at the carebears rants.

The sense of relief, pleasure and pride you get when you survive an engagement is about as good as dayz gets, double it if you kill the guy that fired on you first. The fear of being shot is the only real fear the game currently has as no one is really afraid of the zombies, once they work out the mechanics etc. We need the killers to get our hearts racing and for the tension and fear and sheer fucking elation they generate.

Edited October 30, 2012 by Rastamaus

[entspeak 374]

I have to agree that there should be no karma system beyond what already exists. I'd imagine in a zombie apocalypse, many would lose their sense of right and wrong - many would lose their minds. At least you can identify the murderers.

There are ways to avoid being shot. I've died 5 or so times in the week I've been playing DayZ... only twice have I been killed by another player - the first two deaths when I had no idea what I was doing. One of my lives, I lasted for 4 days in game before succumbing to an infection (I never stopped bleeding - a glitch because I thought it stopped at 6000? - and, of course, I had no antibiotics, so suicide was the only answer). Because I know there are psychos out there who simply want to shoot me, I avoid the cities on more populated servers and play mostly night games - *GASP!*... with a flashlight... *GASP! GASP!!* That's real and, in a zombie apocalypse where zombies can't see you at night, it makes the most sense. I figure psychos are part of the simulation. Be smart, be quiet and be lucky. I have more server issues than issues with players.

My point is that psychos will be psychos and the best way to deal with them is to account for them in your gameplay... you can't play thinking you aren't a target for the vast numbers of psychos.

What I'd love to see is a refinement of the self-defense system - the aim being to reduce the number of bandits resulting from self-defense.

[mr_chabowski@live.co.uk 2416]

I'd imagine in a zombie apocalypse, many would lose their sense of right and wrong - many would lose their minds. At least you can identify the murderers.

The humanity system we have now is seriously flawed and will be redone (most likely just removed) when standalone hits.

I doubt OPs "karma" suggestion would be any better either.

A couple of months back there were Q+A/interviews regarding targets for future DayZ gameplay, and encouraging interaction between players to allow communities to form was high on Rockets list.

While the vast majority either kill everyone, or avoid everyone, it isn't going to be possible.

But if a community of friendlies can eventually be built, any "karmic rebalance" for bandits can be doled out Mad Max style.

[tommes 331]

Bandit mask= higher chance of being shot at and the Hero skin well you know, hero skin!!

The only skin that get's shot at less is the ghillie...and that's only if you stay down in grass.

The whole skin changing thing is retarded and should be gone with custom clothing.

[starwarsfan@gmx.de 450]

The only way to prevent the whole 'killing for fun' thing is by providing incentives to team up. Besides, most of the killing that happens now-a-days is simply because of boredom, as there is simply nothing else to do once you know the map better than the back of your hand and have all the gear one could possibly be needing.

Things that could be done and that have already been suggested: need more people to repair vehicles, a more indepth health system that incluedes things that cannot be overcome alone, simply more content overall...

People simply need to be worth more alive than dead to you.

For example they could add places someone cannot enter alone, maybe you need someone to uve you 'a boost up' to that ledge or stuff like that.

[koze 113]

I got a better idea, and I wrote it here.

http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/103382-bandit-hunting-and-self-defence/

[nikiller 122]

hi,

With the mod as its current state the only two things left when you are fully geared is to help people or PvP. There's implicit rules like don't kill fresh spawns, afk players, medics but most people choose to PvP

cya.

Nikiller.

[Mos1ey 6301]

The only way to prevent the whole 'killing for fun' thing is by providing incentives to team up. Besides, most of the killing that happens now-a-days is simply because of boredom, as there is simply nothing else to do once you know the map better than the back of your hand and have all the gear one could possibly be needing.

Things that could be done and that have already been suggested: need more people to repair vehicles, a more indepth health system that incluedes things that cannot be overcome alone, simply more content overall...

People simply need to be worth more alive than dead to you.

For example they could add places someone cannot enter alone, maybe you need someone to uve you 'a boost up' to that ledge or stuff like that.

This just encourages the 'play with friends, kill everyone else' play style.

[starwarsfan@gmx.de 450]

This just encourages the 'play with friends, kill everyone else' play style.

You can't really do anything against that 'play style', at least I can't think of anything. If you have an idea, please tell me.

Pre-made groups consisting of people who know eachother outside of the game will always tend to exclude outsiders. The things that are being implemented though are rather ment to discourage the Kill On Sight mentality and encourage teaming up of solo players. I think there really is no perfect solution, there never is.

Edited October 30, 2012 by James Ashwood

[indominator 95]

let me say one thing, theres lots of culture each with its POV, rituals and moral. Are you trying to imply that yours is the only right one? Because it isnt, survival is the thing that drives communities together, other things too some times. Think that moral changes with time and places theres lots of ways to perceive a situation so this is the reason for punishing someone for killing other person.Karma and Humanity is wrong, because the only thing that is bad is killing someone from your group, like if i killed someon of my clan i would be punished in a way unique to my clan and that would be the only real way, let the players punish and judge the killers, just like it is, the natural way.

Edited October 30, 2012 by indominator

[Rastamaus 323]

There seems to be a lot of talk about encouraging people to play in groups, to make the game more social etc, but plenty of folks do just that, the harshness of the game, the regularity of unprovoked murders etc is pushing people to band up. I occasionally play solo for the fun of it, at night on packed servers just to see how far I get or how long I last but the most rewarding and 'safest' gameplay (if that's what you're after) can come from joining with others.

Joining with groups is fraught with it's own set of challenges and dangers though. Selfish gits, team killers, thieves and liars populate the wasteland alongside honourable, decent, honest and friendly folks and this adds even more to the game in my opinion. i have even spent time in a rival clan spying and setting them up for my main clan, in order to inflict our own particular brand of karma.

The various gameplay styles don't need policing, it's the way we all play it that should do that.

[Shadow Man 142]

If the way zombies behave is done right, they may cut down alot of sniping and "fun killing". A sniper rifle on a hill makes alot of noise, if zombies make their way there it forces snipers to move on after firing.

I don't think a karma system seems right for DayZ. I'm of the opinion that in a real apocalypse there would be psychopaths waiting to kill you. Somehow you have to make it much more beneficial to not kill someone if you stumble across them. Maybe if loot is rarer, the only way you can get some stuff is by trading with players. If you shoot them, 50% of whatever they are carrying is damaged and useless. Or something like that.

[Rastamaus 323]

http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/103262-lets-not-make-bandits-worse-lets-make-heroes-better/

another thread which covers the same area

[LansEllion 1]

It's still just not what DayZ is about. You can't punish players for a certain playstyle, there has to be absolute freedom.

I'd like to see some kind of ADVANTAGE to helping random people, not a DISADVANTAGE to killing people.

I agree that there should be freedom, but it is a video game so our freedom is already limited by the rules, structure, and limitations of the game. And right now the structure encourages everyone to be a psychopath because real world consequences like actual permanent death and need to build a stable society to survive don't and can't exist. My main point isn't about punishing bandits but is instead about trying to add a little more realism into the game. Of course, many will disagree because they like the game how it is and maybe they are right, that it is just a game and lets play it how it is. But I think it would be fun to have people question whether or not they should kill.

I think the best solution would of course be one that structures the game in a way so that its simply advantageous to assist other players on occasion like it would be in real life (as suggested by Shadow Man #19). But, a video game is limited by the fact of being a game. Of course in a post apocalyptic world there will be chaos and many people will fight. But at the same time in the real world real survivors would see the faces of others, hear their real voice (not a microphone version of it) which might trigger some innate moral sense for some people that killing is wrong. I fully admit that a Karma system is unrealistic and imposes an outside version of morals on the game, but at the same time, if we don't have some way to throw back in the innate sense of morality that many people have in real life (as shown by numerous psychology studies) then the game fails and is unrealistic in that sense. To me its a catch 22 situation, if you add in a Karma system it's unrealistic (sorry to those who believe in Karma), but without some way to add more of a human element its also unrealistic.

So really this idea isn't about policing, forcing people to play in groups or even trying to prevent bandits. Its about trying to add back in realism that doesn't exist due to the fact that it's a game. That is why I suggest an unseen system that almost seems to not exist (because I hate the unrealistic idea of obvious evil characters with bandit skins). Hopefully, existing just enough to encourage some people to be good while others won't believe it exists and will continue on their merry way slaughtering people on the beach. Maybe I am just being a reality freak and trying to impose an element of reality that just can't and shouldn't exist in the game, but it sounds fun to me to add in some way to make some people hesitate before shooting. I would have a lot more fun if I was sitting there with someone lined up in my sights who has way better weapons than I do and I was forced to pause and think: "should I do this?"