You Get What You Pay For Survival Servers, Dayz.st, Hfbservers, Vilayer

[thejackrabbit 6]

Figured I would make this post for anybody who is looking for a decent server provider as I found some VERY interesting results. After I took the time to play on servers from the 4 companies I put in the title Survival Servers, Dayz.st, Hfb servers, And Vilayer I figured I would post my results.

Survival Servers= $30 base package

Servers felt a bit slugish to me, joining was a bit slow, had gear saving issues, small periods of desync, But over all felt playable at best. This test was done while there was 7 people on the 40 slot server I joined. Player for a period of 30 mins found i had a total of about 30 seconds of yellow chain and 5-6 seconds of Red chain. Loading time took about 15-20 seconds to get into server {from point of "loading"} lost my beans and hatchet on disconnect and reconnect at end of play session.

Amount of servers per machine= 16

Dayz.St=$30 Base Package

Servers felt very sluggish at peak had load time of 48 seconds. Had periods of red chain desync for more then 10 seconds at a time. Gear did all save successfully. Once again playable at best and would not call one of their servers home. Play time 46mins Players 12

Servers per machine=20

Hfb servers=$35 Base Package

Servers felt very responsive, very short load times `5 seconds, gear saved correctly, Noticed yellow desync for about 2 seconds. Play time 48mins players at start 8 at end of play session 26 {not sure where everybody came from} but once again at end of session dissconnect and reconnected faced `5 second load time.

number of servers per machine=5

Vilayer=$39.30 with front page coupon

Servers felt very responsive, once again short loading times `5 seconds, `10 seonds of yellow desync and `3 seconds of red. Gear saved correctly, play time 1 hour 15mins {found a chopper and could not help myself} players consistant 15

Servers per machine=5

So after all that let me draw some conclusions here. It appears that the newwer companies to the dayz server hosting market are running a lot of servers per machine {most likely too many} where as the original companies are running a lot less

Dates below are when the companies started hosting DayZ servers.

Survival servers | started August 20th

Dayz.st | started September 8th

Hfb Servers | started May 23rd {worth noting was the largest dayz provider in the USA at one point}

Vilayer | started May 25th {was the largest EU provider around the time Hfb was the Largest USA provider}

Seems to me your best bet is going with the companies that have been around the longest, and the ones that are not overselling their servers. Companies like Vilayer and Hfb have been around since the beggining of dayz as we know it, and are still around for a reason. They know what they are doing which is something these new providers do not. Dayz.st and Survival servers you are setting your self up for failure by running sooooooo many servers per machine.

Now its time for me to say some things that have been on my mind and I want the owners of these companies I named in the post to see.

Survival Servers. Please for the love of god stop bumping your own posts and replying to every little post in the attempts to keep your thread at the top. And please stop using your post as a update and support section :/ its just annoying. Also your title please stop posting things that you are not the only one to have then act like you are like the current "bliss 3.6 latest" Hfb has this, vilayer has this, and im pretty sure dayz.st has this.

Dayz.st Pleast stop acting like you are this big shot multi millionaire who has started fortune 500 companies. You make posts about vilayer and hfb being "microscopic" in compairison to what you have done. Well here is your time, tell us, what have you done that is sooooooo much bigger then a company like vilayer that has been in the gsp industry for several years and has thousands of game servers. You seem to talk a bunch of crap but never have the proof to back it. From what i have seen all your .st sites they are not very big or even successful so yea. I think you are just full of crap.

Hfb servers glad to see you and vilayer are sort of friends but please for the love of god GET A REAL FUCKING SITE your site looks like crap very generic and plain like a person took a template and just renamed everything. You site is crap plain and simple, And also raise your prices so you dont blend in with these low price over selling hosts like survival and dayz.st

Vilayer glad to see you are working with hfb but please SPAWN THEIR SERVERS VEHICLES, Since you are the company running this dayz planet thing and have access to the dayz planet hive why cant you spawn vehicles for their servers, my server with them has been vehicleless for far too long where as the server I have with you always has vehicles. Also please give us changelogs when you make an update to the maps, I see "new version of xx out" yet I have no idea what to expect. Hell the amazing fallujah update that added a fuck load of loot and an even bigger fuckload of zombies would have been nice to know....

So yea that is my post. All in all if you want a good server to play on or to rent go with hfb and vilayer {no particular order} if you want a cheap server then go with survival servers or dayz.st

[Viles (DayZ) 93]

Vilayer.

[mgsloth 12]

First of all I don't like any of the companies you listed, so I am not baised at all.

Second of all, you have listed that these companies have xx number of servers running per machine based off of IP address.

You do know that you can run vps machines within these and use a different IP address right? what I am saying is that you cannot base how many servers per machine per company based off of IP, so your whole thread is kind of pontless when comparing them based on servers per machine.

Yes, I know you have personally tested these by connecting and playing to each server but that is also not a good way to test it.

If and maybe you did or have played in a large group you would notice that each person would experience a different experience when connecting and playing,

This is to do with many factors and not just the server your connecting to.

A lot of time it is actually the maiin hive. (you could have a top notch server and network and still get the issues you listed above as a server related problem).

I am not trying to stick up for any of these companies, in fact I can tell you that they all are most likely overselling their servers by using:

Server cost + Control Panel + Web Site + Marketing + Staff + O/S - (considering it is legal) + Number Of Dayz Servers = more then $30 a month

so you know that they are cutting corners at least some where.

All the other stuff in your post is based on your frustration or opinion, so no comment there.

it would just be nice to for you to make a thread with actual real comparisons with the above companies.

[ersan 219]

Dayz.st and Survival servers you are setting your self up for failure by running sooooooo many servers per machine.

Dayz.st Pleast stop acting like you are this big shot multi millionaire who has started fortune 500 companies. You make posts about vilayer and hfb being "microscopic" in compairison to what you have done. Well here is your time, tell us, what have you done that is sooooooo much bigger then a company like vilayer that has been in the gsp industry for several years and has thousands of game servers. You seem to talk a bunch of crap but never have the proof to back it. From what i have seen all your .st sites they are not very big or even successful so yea. I think you are just full of crap.

We run 14-20 gameservers per physical server, not IP (they are not necessarily the same thing) because our servers have 12 cores... Amount of servers per IP is a meaningless stastic and entirely dependent on network setup and server hardware. DayZHostOne had 64-core servers, should they only host 5 gameservers per machine too?

I'm sorry it took you 45 seconds to login to any of our servers, we have heard no complaints from any of our customers or players about slow servers or logins, could you specify which server you were experiencing issues on so I can look into it? Based on the screenshot, you seem to be comparing others' private hive servers to our official hive servers if you are using US 265 as a benchmark... Official servers have to communicate with the official hive before you can login and when there are hive updates ingame, the speed of which is not in our control. Private servers also have something called blissperflib that makes them significantly faster than official servers. If you are going to compare our services with other companies please use more consistent benchmarks.

I said I was independently wealthy in that thread due to the fact that others were accusing me of complaining about the map issue because I was jealous of how much money they make... The .ST sites (which are a small subset of the companies I run, I'm not willing to discuss anything further as they are not public-facing) have at the very least two to three times as many customers as every other dayz gsp combined, not really sure how you judged their size based on their websites... I'm not a 'big-shot' I was simply defending myself with facts as I was upset at Vilayer's actions to monopolize on map ports while locking out other hosts, I thought it was non-competitive and also hurt the DayZ community as a whole. My personal finances are also none of your business.

Edited October 19, 2012 by ersan191

[Maxxgold (DayZ) 62]

Ive rented from HFB and had a great experience. They just didn't have the newest features like BEC and Anti-Hax, Map Tools and full access to your data base. So I decided to go to Survival Servers and it's been a horrible experience look through their advertising post and you will see complaint after complaint. They seem to think 24 hour to 72 hours is acceptable for answering tickets. I've had my Survival Server up and running for a few weeks and during that whole time we haven't had access to all of our features.

[SurvivalServers (DayZ) 69]

Maxxgold: We always answer tickets within 24 hours so I'm not sure where you are getting 72 hours? The issue will not always be solved within 24 hours but we do reimburse for downtime. Go ahead and look through the first 30 pages of my forums post and you will see nothing but good reviews. The only reason we've had a few hiccups lately is because of errors with the 3.5 release, but we are back on track with 3.6 and polishing up many of our features right now.

thejackrabbit: You cannot base server load on the evidence you have. Here is a screenshot of the server usage for the server's you think we might be "overloading"

Edited October 19, 2012 by SurvivalServers

[ShaneGT 41]

boya... lol, I have SS as a hoster, the only issue i have is the bliss 3.6/3.5 issues, never had any connection related issues or desyncing issues, and i have had 30+ people on the server at one time.

[ersan 219]

thejackrabbit: You cannot base server load on the evidence you have. Here is a screenshot of the server usage for the server's you think we might be "overloading"

Indeed, we run the same configuration and have similar metrics. Choosing an IP at random also isn't really indicative of an average server's load.

Edited October 19, 2012 by ersan191

[Maxxgold (DayZ) 62]

Maxxgold: We always answer tickets within 24 hours so I'm not sure where you are getting 72 hours? The issue will not always be solved within 24 hours but we do reimburse for downtime. Go ahead and look through the first 30 pages of my forums post and you will see nothing but good reviews. The only reason we've had a few hiccups lately is because of errors with the 3.5 release, but we are back on track with 3.6 and polishing up many of our features right now.

I'm not looking for any reimburse unless you guys just do it. I understand that the upgrade has been a pain in the ass for you guys but as a customer that's not supposed to be my problem. You should never have upgraded the servers until you tested them for a couple of weeks. I would still be happy if we were using 3.4 and you were testing out 3.5 and then 3.6 When I first got my server it ran great and I was very happy and then you forced us to update and it's been problem after problem. We still don't have a working admin tools and the 502 errors are popping up all the time. Most of my tickets are answered around the 24 hour mark, none are answered the same day. HFB and Gameservers.com answered tickets in about 1 hour. You guys should rent a server from a big hosting site like Gameservers.Com and put in a ticket and see how fast they answer it. What you don't realize is that 24 hours is not acceptable to anyone. So to continue on with the same old we answer our tickets in 24 hours is not helping your company out at all. How would you feel if your server was down and someone told you to wait 24 hours. Were not even talking user errors here were talking all server side errors.You obviously rent server banks all over the world. How about if one of them went down and the hosting company didn't get back to you for 24 hours or longer. You'd be upset and probably take your business elsewhere. I'm willing to hold out till the end of my billing cycle in the hopes that you guys get everything working correctly but when that time comes and it's still like this I will be taking my business elsewhere. I hope things work themselves out because you guys still offer a lot of nice features. We will see

[urbanfox 116]

There are too many variables to just pick one server from whatever company and try to test performance by simply logging in and seeing if there is desync.

For example, where is the server in relation to your PC? How many game servers are being ran on that server? How many players are on each game server on the physical server? How is their path to the Hive? How is the Hive's performance at that moment? What kind of specs is the server running? etc.

Some of those variables can be controlled by the host, some cannot. The trend for sometime now has been the move away from high powered single/dual quad-core CPU's in favor of down-clocked dual hex-core CPU's, but that was always inevitable. Companies have to balance performance with making a buck, so it just makes more business sense to move to a machine that while may cost more can fit more than the difference in cost. Has that hurt the community? Yes, in a sense, on servers where there is a large player base, but at the same time it's also the reason there are so many servers. Paying for and administering a dual hex-core server with one power drop and one network drop is less expensive than paying for and administering four quad-core servers, regardless of if the performance difference between the machines is large. However, in the end the customer does benefit from the fact there is A LOT more competition out there and pricing has to be competitive.

EDIT

Just to be clear though, I think it's ridiculous to run 2 or DayZ instances per actual CPU core. Put an actual player load on all those servers and performance will come screeching to a halt, especially on dual hex-core servers where the overall clock speed is only around 45% more than the average quad-core server.

Edited October 19, 2012 by urbanfox

[Painer 4]

I rent a private hive, 40 slot from Survival Servers. You are welcome to come on right now we are having massive PvP in Cherno and Elektro and are hovering between 35-40 people on with no lag. My main issue now is deciding whether to get more slots, not whether the quality is bad. Most people who have server problems honestly don't have any business administrating one. If you have never even used ANY type of database and can't tell me what a table is....you really should study a bit before buying a server. Now with regards to the bliss update, yeah SS had some issues that weren't even on their end. The people all asked for Rmod and SS made it happen and did their best. People will always complain. You however sir show a seriously biased complaint with zero professionalism. It's hard to take that serious. It's all just personal bias and that doesn't garner respect. And just FYI, I don't know ersan or rent from his company but his product looks really good. He's also very attentive to his customers needs, and is obviously a skilled programmer. I would have no issues renting from him if anything happened to SS.

- my 2 cents

[Maxxgold (DayZ) 62]

I rent a private hive, 40 slot from Survival Servers. You are welcome to come on right now we are having massive PvP in Cherno and Elektro and are hovering between 35-40 people on with no lag. My main issue now is deciding whether to get more slots, not whether the quality is bad. Most people who have server problems honestly don't have any business administrating one. If you have never even used ANY type of database and can't tell me what a table is....you really should study a bit before buying a server. Now with regards to the bliss update, yeah SS had some issues that weren't even on their end. The people all asked for Rmod and SS made it happen and did their best. People will always complain. You however sir show a seriously biased complaint with zero professionalism. It's hard to take that serious. It's all just personal bias and that doesn't garner respect. And just FYI, I don't know ersan or rent from his company but his product looks really good. He's also very attentive to his customers needs, and is obviously a skilled programmer. I would have no issues renting from him if anything happened to SS.

- my 2 cents

lol Quoted for BS and troll is fail. Don't take my word for it go look in the thread for their advertising and look at all the complaints. I'm sure we are all making it up. I'm sure you didn't even touch on the 24 hours for tickets to get answered. I have my own gaming company.

http://zombieapocalypsegaming.com

We host our own servers. I have a server rack in my home. I'm currently running my own private DayZ server along with the one we rent from Survival Servers. I guess in your opinion we the customer should just keep taking it up the *** and not say anything when the service sucks. Please tell everyone in here when is it acceptable to complain about service ??? Please tell us. I'm glad your server is working correctly. Maybe if you read through all of the posts and complaints you would realize that a lot of people are having problems out of their hands related to the upgrades which SS has fully admitted. Please don't insult everyone in here with your useless rabble. The fact that a company has to offer refunds is proof enough that they have had issues. My server is running good at the moment but we still don't have DayZ tools working and even when it does work you get 502 errors left and right.

Edited October 19, 2012 by Maxxgold

[jeremy_mccurdy@hotmail.com 19]

Another Survival Servers customer here. I'm getting increasingly frustrated with their service and support. I'm now over a week without a server that works right. During some of that week, the server was playable, but there were no vehicles and no placed objects would get saved. The other part of the time, the server wouldn't let players in. I had about one day where there were vehicles, which then broke after a restart.

The response from them has been getting increasingly slow, they HAVE gone over their 24 hour response time, and their reimbursement for over a week of downtime/unplayable servers is 5 bucks.

From what I gather, there are very few people working at the company, and they seem to be constantly overwhelmed by the number of customers they have, and they like to add features without extensive testing. So, do them a favour and take your business elsewhere.

With that in mind, does anyone have suggestions for alternatives? Is Dayz.St better? HFB? Vilayer?

[Painer 4]

lol Quoted for BS and troll is fail. Don't take my word for it go look in the thread for their advertising and look at all the complaints. I'm sure we are all making it up. I'm sure you didn't even touch on the 24 hours for tickets to get answered. I have my own gaming company.

http://zombieapocalypsegaming.com

We host our own servers. I have a server rack in my home. I'm currently running my own private DayZ server along with the one we rent from Survival Servers. I guess in your opinion we the customer should just keep taking it up the *** and not say anything when the service sucks. Please tell everyone in here when is it acceptable to complain about service ??? Please tell us. I'm glad your server is working correctly. Maybe if you read through all of the posts and complaints you would realize that a lot of people are having problems out of their hands related to the upgrades which SS has fully admitted. Please don't insult everyone in here with your useless rabble. The fact that a company has to offer refunds is proof enough that they have had issues. My server is running good at the moment but we still don't have DayZ tools working and even when it does work you get 502 errors left and right.

Maxx I can understand your frustration man, you have a great website with a lot of good info. I just try and not get bent out of shape over it. And yes, you make good points, I just don't think that SS purposefully does any of this. And no, the customer shouldn't accept sub par service. I just get the feeling that they are trying hard to please us and if we give them a break, in the end we will be compensated. And also I feel your pain with dayz tools, I use it as an antihacker to check coords and inventories of questionable players and right now with a full server I am having issues left and right - the tools couldn't get here quick enough.

p.s. My server was down for about 3 days with the bliss update - I lost several of my regular players and that really sucks. They had a lot of energy and time invested in their bases and now it's all new. I still just get the feeling they (SS) are trying to make things better and given the chance they will. I am willing to give them a shot.

Edited October 20, 2012 by Painer

[Bernardo (DayZ) 13]

I have been with Survival Servers for 3 weeks, I had a week of downtime and the customer service is probably the worst I ever experienced.

The servers and tools are good WHEN THEY WORK!!!! BAD GATEWAY 502!!!!

But extremely rude, poor customer service should also be mentioned.

When I first got my server I was very happy everything worked. But first came the 502 Error and then the forced Bliss update and now the servers are full of bugs.

I personally would avoid Survival Servers especially for the time being, but I don't know if other companies are having the same issues.

Edited October 20, 2012 by bsmaff

[RogueOne 112]

14-20 servers per machine? All I can say is wow! It's understandable though since your pricing demands you load up each machine to generate an income which is also why people are seeing poor performance. Hopefully you learned something by that? It's pretty simple really.

DayZ and ArmA2 game cannot be overloaded on servers. On the current highest spec hardware your only going to want to run 8-10 instances max! This is exactly why some of the higher priced hosters price it this way. They are smart enough to understand this very basic hosting principle.

Edited October 20, 2012 by RogueOne

[SurvivalServers (DayZ) 69]

I'd like to see proof of where we were "extremely rude"

And you have been compensated for the downtime and all of our tools are being polished up right now. The only tool that is not fully functioning is our map tool to see in game vehicles. Is your server working now?

I just posted in your thread yesterday with the following, not seeing the rudeness you speak of:

Whats wrong with our service? We offer some of the most advanced features, including rMod, Database access, DayZTools(a program we coded using php) allowing for customizable vehicle settings and all sorts of other fun things. Map tools with in game vehicles and players. 5 different playable maps and competitive pricing. As far as I know, we are the only major provider using the most up to date Bliss private hive v3.6 with BEC and Anti-Hax enabled, which has the fewest bugs and comes out with database updates almost weekly. We might of had 1 issue with the 3.5 release, but we are rock solid now and 3.6 has fixed any ongoing issues. We are continuing to release some of the most innovative features and are always taking suggestions from our customers on ways that we can improve. I have provided a list below of what we are currently working on.

Please send me a PM or reply here if there is anything we can do to give you a hand.

- rMod server settings / rMod spawn vehicles (Run Task, daily task) - 90% done, ETA 2-3 days

- Vehicle spawns based on server settings (requires an update for the new v3.6) - 30% done, ETA 1-2 days

- WhitelisterPro server-side implementation (requires finishing some code) - 40% done, ETA 1-2 days

- BEC / DayZAntiHax update - 0% done, ETA 1 week

- Arma2 beta patch update - 0% done, ETA 2-3 days

- DayZTools database backup, migration, restoration tool - 25% done, ETA 1 week

Edited October 20, 2012 by SurvivalServers

[RogueOne 112]

Another Survival Servers customer here. I'm getting increasingly frustrated with their service and support. I'm now over a week without a server that works right. During some of that week, the server was playable, but there were no vehicles and no placed objects would get saved. The other part of the time, the server wouldn't let players in. I had about one day where there were vehicles, which then broke after a restart.

The response from them has been getting increasingly slow, they HAVE gone over their 24 hour response time, and their reimbursement for over a week of downtime/unplayable servers is 5 bucks.

From what I gather, there are very few people working at the company, and they seem to be constantly overwhelmed by the number of customers they have, and they like to add features without extensive testing. So, do them a favour and take your business elsewhere.

With that in mind, does anyone have suggestions for alternatives? Is Dayz.St better? HFB? Vilayer?

I've heard this mentioned before with companies allowing up to 24 hour for a support ticket response.. Really? Either DayZ customers aren't used to working with real companies or they brain washed you into thinking this is normal. Let me set you straight, Any legit game server company will have staff online 24x7 and be able to answer any support requests within a few minutes to 1 hour max. There's really no reason to make paying customers wait 24 hours for a simple answer. BAH! Reading these posts makes me want to cry..

[SurvivalServers (DayZ) 69]

I've heard this mentioned before with companies allowing up to 24 hour for a support ticket response.. Really? Either DayZ customers aren't used to working with real companies or they brain washed you into thinking this is normal. Let me set you straight, Any legit game server company will have staff online 24x7 and be able to answer any support requests within a few minutes to 1 hour max. There's really no reason to make paying customers wait 24 hours for a simple answer. BAH! Reading these posts makes me want to cry..

Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't know a single dayz host that answers all tickets within 1 hour. We say 24 hours as a MAX time. Once we finish updating our tools response times will get better.

Edited October 20, 2012 by SurvivalServers

[jeremy_mccurdy@hotmail.com 19]

I've heard this mentioned before with companies allowing up to 24 hour for a support ticket response.. Really? Either DayZ customers aren't used to working with real companies or they brain washed you into thinking this is normal. Let me set you straight, Any legit game server company will have staff online 24x7 and be able to answer any support requests within a few minutes to 1 hour max. There's really no reason to make paying customers wait 24 hours for a simple answer. BAH! Reading these posts makes me want to cry..

Are other hosting companies better for response times? Personally all I care about at the moment is a server that works, isn't too crazy expensive, and reasonable response times. I don't give a crap about amazing server tools or feature X that no other company has.

[RogueOne 112]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't know a single dayz host that answers all tickets within 1 hour. We say 24 hours as a MAX time. Once we finish updating our tools response times will get better.

I work for a game server company and all tickets are answered in most times just a few minutes. Standard wait times when busy could be up to 1 hour.

And no I'm not going t disclose who I work for, I don't browse forums here to promote business. I do it because I enjoy playing this game.

[SurvivalServers (DayZ) 69]

Up to 24 hours is reasonable and we're not changing out policy on that.

Admittedly, we dropped the ball over the last week and had a few tickets go above 24 hours. It happens, give us a break. We had a major release mixed in with some major issues which we worked 24/7 fixing. It's not an ongoing thing, take a look at our entire thread history and you'll see this is not an ongoing thing. The amount of impatience, rudeness, and flat out wrong information said about all of these hosts is just ridiculous, I'm talking HFB/Vilayer/every host. It's not easy running DayZ hosting. There's a shit load of work and crap we have to put up with on a day to day basis but we power through it and learn from our mistakes. We're on the right path and that's what matters.

Comparing DayZ hosting to other hosting companies (even GSPs) is apples to oranges. We're dealing with a game that is in beta, software that is in early testing/newly released, and now the transition to private servers adds on top of that 10 fold.

The amount of misinformation in this forum in regards to server hosts is astounding. It's fair to call a company out on your issue but when you make assumptions that the other hosting providers don't ever have issues then that's just plain false information. I've seen almost every single host mentioned on this board have issues with ticket response times. Out of hundreds/thousands of customers it's impossible not to have a few issues here and there.

Edited October 20, 2012 by SurvivalServers

[RogueOne 112]

Understood and I agree much has been said regarding every host good and bad. My answer was referring to support response time and I'd have to disagree that 24 hour wait for an update is not the norm. Support can make or break your business. Just sit back and read some of the complaints. Most are based on either bad support or lack of support. Your customer are paying you for support and this is what will consume 90% of your time. This is the business you chose to be in and this is what it's all about. Most new game hosters have the notion they can spit out servers and that's the end of their interaction with the customer. Putting up a server is the easy part. Most GSP's fail because they cannot handle the support aspect, Anyone can put up a server but many don't have the knowledge or time to communicate effectively with their customers. Simply telling them to wait 24 hours isn't the solution.

All providers big and small have issues. That I agree with you on. But what makes a great company is not if your going to have issues but how you handle them. Spending hours every day on the forums here trying to keep your reputation clean could be better served by helping your customers with support tickets. Just saying.

And yes there is misinformation on the forums here. This is a byproduct of hosting a game within such a small community, Every bump you take will somehow find it's way here and transform into something much larger then it initially was. It happens to everyone for better or worse. My only suggestion would be grow thicker skin. That is also the downside to limiting your business to only one game, You need to work extra hard making sure your on point because if this goes away you go away..

[tharsini 0]

hi thanks for your infromation

[FiX (DayZ) 17]

Remember, those aren't all the hosts you have listed as well so I'd take some of the advice with a grain of salt.