bazbake

Well put. Which is why you don't care about storage and are completely on the side of losing everything you have when you die. Anything else would be an unnatural attachment to petty trinkets that don't shape your character at all.

I don't see it, Spart248. Bandits commit banditry 1) for fun and 2) to get good loot. By forcing bandits to risk everything they have to kill someone, bandits are less likely to kill for fun and less likely to gamble with the loot they have to kill a random stranger. You don't need a vast supply of crap waiting back at home to group up. People group up in Battlefield and and CoD and Team Fortress all the time. You may be less likely to build camps, since you'd have nothing to put them in, but you might actually work harder to coordinate if your heavy gunner couldn't carry food or medicine. In fact, it would probably motivate groups in other ways to cooperate with each other. Why would a lack of hoarding motivate banditry instead of heroism? The can of beans someone offers you as payment is far more valuable when you can't carry around 20 cans of beans. The blood bag you offer a dying player is that much more valuable when they don't have 8 steaks waiting at home for them. And right now there's no such thing as endgame content. There's just item hoarding and boredom (seriously, read the boards). If people lost everything they had when they died, EVERYTHING would be endgame content because staying at endgame would last only a matter of days instead of months (unless you're awesome like that one dude who lived for 50 days and lost it all and was like, "Shit...oh well, this game is AWESOME!" Now THAT is someone I want to play beside.) Long story short, if you have everything, you value nothing. If you can lose everything, you value it all. This applies to heroes and bandits. Now that is the game that not just I but you and everyone else signed up for. You've adapted to something different but that's not the game you thought you would be playing unless you had a friend who told you about storage ahead of time. It's definitely not the game Rocket pitched. Actually, if helicopters respawned every 24 hours, they wouldn't be rare anymore...because people wouldn't be hoarding them.... It's like diamonds. They're only rare because they're all locked away in vaults. Let everyone have one and no one cares anymore.

tl;dr Arma II's weapon damage tables were made up off the top of someone's head and are completely inauthentic. A far more accurate way would be to base it on the size of the holes the bullets leave. Science, science, science. Math, math, math. There you go.

It's hard not to get long-winded when you reply to multiple people. I'll try to keep it brief and remind people that we're talking about BULLET DAMAGE TABLES, not inventing completely new systems of calculating health loss. @dev0 There's no link to the sources for me to read. And "wounding effects" is really vague. Do they mean headaches or general pain? What we know from government records is that 99.85% of bullet trauma in Vietnam was caused by permanent cavitation alone. You seem very focused on the last 0.15%, which is not where I would focus resources when developing a simulation. Barring possible infection, you just described blood loss through permanent cavitation four times (I hope you meant "circulatory shock" and not emotional trauma). @Spart248 It's not complex, it's just authentic. The complexity is how I arrived at the authenticity. But it's just weapon damage tables. Nothing would change except which bullets do which damage. Everything else would be exactly the same. @xXIMrTwoIXx I believe you mean two documents this time. And lots of pictures. Honest mistake, I hope. I only abandon posts when the majority become, "I didn't read what you wrote, and I'm proud of that" or "You may or may not have addressed this already, but I'm going to go ahead and call you ignorant while talking about something you handily debunked and thoroughly dismissed in the first line of your post because...I'm not really sure why I'm here." Although Kyus Jin's hilarious, "I hate you, you suck, and I want to shoot you in the face" is becoming an all-time favorite. Now that's dedication. Oh, right, bones. Well, your first mistake is talking about bone fragments like they're a given and then hanging your hat on it. 70% of the body has no bones in it. And even if a bullet hits one, even a high velocity bullet, you can't predict how far the fragments will travel, in which direction, or even how many fragments will be created in the first place. In other words, you want to form damage tables based on something you can't predict. I want to form damage tables on something that is easily predictable -- wound channels. Why is your system more logical than mine? Unless your argument is that there is no argument. It's quite possible you're arguing that making it up as you go along is better than establishing damage tables based on actual bullet performance. But...why would anyone want to do that? Also, MrTwo, temporary cavitation lasts 3 milliseconds at most, human tissue has the elasticity of rubber, and non-expanding rifle rounds achieve high temporary cavitation at depth...which means they would actually do less damage in the parts of the body you're thinking of because they would pop right through.

@KyusJin + MykeMichail I understand that this is what you want to believe. But it's not true. Go ahead and read the citations, you won't be less wrong if you refuse to look at them. @dev0 Thanks. I clicked on your link. It's not really a "shitload." So that's a no on the temporary cavitation. So it once paralyzed someone for several hours when it made their vertebrae slam together and this means it is conceivable at some point in the future that someone might possibly be paralyzed by a temporary cavitation to the spine. Most of your sources can't be accessed, but I did find one article that collects several of them together and seeks to prove they are believable. Courtney and Courtney, 2007. And this is their definition of "incapacitation." So racoons can be slowed down by ballistic shockwaves...about half the time. The only way to reliably incapacitate, in fact, to actually harm the racoons was with .308 V-MAX rounds. V-MAX rounds are literally exploding bullets. Even then, it took a day for some of them to finally succumb. And then they didn't even dissect the racoons to see what actually killed them...the force of the shockwave or a heartattack from being shot at. Sample size of 1400 people says that 99.85% of lasting ballistic trauma to humans is permanent cavitation. Bringing up one instance of temporary trauma or a study of "incapacitation" doesn't change that. Incapacitation isn't damage. You can incapacitate someone with a taser or bottle of vodka.

Now is that point. Arma II, your damage tables are bad. And thanks to you, DayZ's damage tables are very, very bad. Your weapon mechanics are bad. You should feel bad. This is a post about .50 caliber rifles, the myths surrounding them, and to question why the developers just went ahead and threw all of the rules out the window when designing anti-materiel rifles. This is about Videogame LogicTM in a game that purports to represent "authenticity." It is about some basic failures in weapon mechanics and how they led to some severe game balance issues. 1. These are really big fucking guns. Did someone not get the memo? The Recoilless Rifle, aka, the M136 rocket launcher, has a loaded weight of 14 lbs. This is larger than the average size of the smaller caliber sniper rifles but not larger than every smaller caliber sniper rifle in the game (the fully equipped M14 is 16 pounds), but it is considered so large that picking one up causes you to abandon your backpack. The M107 and AS50 both have a weight of 30 lbs and are about as long as a 12 year old kid is tall. But they fit neatly into your backpack. In fact, they take up the same amount of space and cause the same encumbrance as the 6 pound M4A1. ... What. The. Fuck. No. Seriously. Whatthefuck. P.S. You can fire this thing standing up? Have you seen what happens when someone fires a .50 caliber rifle standing up? http://www.myspace.com/video/craig/50-cal-sniper-rifle-standing/22174791#! 2. And they turn people into paste now? Somewhere someone came up with the idea that high-velocity rounds kill better than low-velocity rounds. As Martin L. Fackler, MD, one of the creators of ballistic gel said on page 7 of the paper "Effects of Small Arms on the Body:" In his conclusion he states: "But" one might protest, "the pressure wave of a .50 BMG is so high it can snap the back of a sheep just by passing near it!" Where the hell did you hear that? In his paper "What's Wrong with the Wound Ballistics Literature," Fackler says on page 2: He continues: There are two types of damage: temporary cavitation/stretching damage and permanent cavitation/crushing damage. The first is blunt trauma, like a baseball bat. The second is wounding trauma, like an ice pick. The human body is a shock absorber. Often to exaggerate a bullet's shockwave you'll see people shoot watermelons and blocks of wood. The problem is, if you've ever dropped a watermelon from two feet off the ground, you realize how useless it is to substitute a hunk of fruit for a hunk of meat. The human body is more like a rubber ball than it is an apple. Showing pictures of bullets passing through apples tells you nothing about how bullets interact with people. In article "Wound Ballistics: Analysis of Blunt and Penetrating Trauma Mechanisms", on page 230 of the "Health Science Journal, Volume 4 Issue 4 (2010)," Christina–Athanasia Alexandropoulou, and Elias Panagiotopoulos are a lot more specific: To put a fine head on it, here are the holes a .50 caliber weapon makes on impact with a target. The slow-motion images of ripples rolling through ballistic gel or watermelons and barrels of water exploding are used for exaggerated dramatic effect because they look really cool. That shit is stage dramatics. "But rifle rounds are designed to tumble," one might argue, "and this gives them their incredible lethality." Well, yes and no, but mostly "maybe." As Fackler elaborates on page 6 of "Wound Ballistics": Okay, you already know that the entrance wound for the .50 caliber is a 1/2 inch hole. Well, Here is the rest of the wound channel for a tumbling .50 caliber BMG round. Notice how the first 8 inches of the wound involve an inch diameter of temporary/stretching damage while the permanent/tearing damage is equivalent to that of a 1/2 inch icepick until it goes eight inches into the body. You know what parts of the body are shallower than eight inches? A human arm. A human leg. A human hand. A human foot. A human neck. An average woman's torso front-to-back. The bullet has to go at least 8 inches into the human body for it to even start tumbling and cause the gruesome wounds you expect because it's really damn big and it takes a lot to knock it off course. The stories of legs getting blown off and people being torn in half? Not a very realistic display of the .50 BMGs single-shot killing potential. In fact, it's more likely to overpenetrate your target and make a 1/2 inch hole smaller than a AA battery. Or as put on page 227 of the Health Science Journal: In other words, if you fire a .50 caliber bullet into any part of the human body that is thinner than eight inches, it passes clean through leaving a hole the size of a AA battery. But, dude, it's a VIDEOGAME! Oh, so this isn't about realism or authenticity or the boundaries of common sense. This is was done because someone wanted a really big gun to kill people in one hit 3 to 20 times over without sacrificing mobility or storage? Then stop lying about it and just say that folks are just making another generic videogame so people will stop complaining when they get confused or angry at horrible failures of physics and ballistics design. Problem solved. I'll know exactly what the design goals of this game are and go back to Team Fortress 2 where people don't pretend they're being realistic.

This is part 2 of the 2 part series in which I discuss two things. Part two. http://www.dayzwiki.com/wiki/Weapons After all of the posts about the servers being flooded with AS50's and M107's, I got curious about drop rates. I realized that I had found two M107's in helicopter crashes but had never even seen a M1014. This got me curious about the bias toward certain guns shown by players and, even more, the bias toward certain guns coded into the game by the modders. Everything changed by a mod is a specific decision. Players talk about not punishing or favoring certain playstyles, but they don't notice it was done from the beginning. For example, the Light Machine Guns in Arma II take up both the rocket launcher and primary weapon slots. In DayZ, they are no more encumbering than a shotgun or assault rifle. This was done to encourage their use at the cost of realism. So, I thought about what players would want in a gun: to shoot longer without reloading, shoot fewer rounds to kill, and hit someone from further away. Then I calculated a rough lethality based on magazine, damage, and effective range. And then I put down some broad drop rates. Note: All of the above are important for killing. There are other reasons to carry a gun, though. Rate of fire wasn't calculated for most weapons since there's no accurate measurement listed. But... Most weapons have high fire rates. The weapons with moderate fire rates are usually weak anyway, which means it's not an equalizer. I listed exceptions next to rarity. Note: I'm a Yank. We use colons for multiples of 1,000. These numbers won't give you a perfect measure of your likelihood of killing a person. But they do broadly measure how dangerous you are if you are carrying one to someone you stumble upon while running around. Rarity goes Common > Uncommon > Rare > Very Rare > Extremely Rare. [Mag Size * Damage * Range] = Lethality. Here is a list of firearms organized by class and lethality. Sidearms Makarov (Common) - 8 * 889 *50 = 355,600 M1911 (Common) - 7 * 1389 * 50 = 486,150 Revolver (Common) - 6 * 1389 * 100 = 833,400 M9 (Rare) - 15 * 889 * 75 = 1,000,125 G17 (Rare) - 17 * 889 * 75 = 1,133,475 PDW (Rare/Very High FIre Rate) - (15 | 30) * 889 * 50 = 666,750 | 1,333,500 Submachine Guns MP5 - 2,667,000 Shotguns Double Barreled Shotgun (Common) - 2 * 4500 * 100 = 900,000 M1014 (Rare) - 8 * 4500 * 250 = 9,000,000 Remington 870 (Rare) - 8 * 4500 * 250 = 9,000,000 Winchester(...it's...a rifle) (Common) - 15 * 4500 * 150 = 10,125,000 Assault Rifles AKS-74U (Rare) - 30 * 2722 * 200 = 16,332,000 AK-74 (Uncommon) - 30 * 2722 * 300 = 24,498,000 M4A1 (Rare) - 30 * 3555 * 300 = 31,995,000 M16A2 (Rare) - 30 * 3555 * 400 = 42,550,000 AKM (Uncommon) - 30 * 4500 * 400 = 54,000,000 Sniper Rifles/Battle Rifles Lee Enfield (Common) - 10 * 6722 * 400 = 26,888,000 M24 (Rare/Slow Fire Rate) - 5 * 8000 * 800 = 32,000,000 CZ550 (Uncommon/Slow Fire Rate) - 5 * 8000 * 800 = 32,000,000 M14 (Rare) - 20 * 8000 * 500 = 80,000,000 SVD Camo (Very Rare) - 10 * 8000 * 1000 = 80,000,000 DMR (Rare) - 20 * 8000 * 800 = 128,000,000 Light Machine Guns M249 SAW (Very Rare) - (30 | 200) * 3555 * 300 = 31,995,000 | 213,300,000 Mk 48 Mod 0 (Very Rare) - 100 * 8000 * 400 = 320,000,000 M240 (Very Rare) - 100 * 8000 * 600 = 480,000,000 Anti-Materiel Rifles M107 (Very Rare) - 10 * 37,552 * 1200 = 450,624,000 AS50 (Extremely Rare) - (10|5) * (37,552|174205) * 1200 = 450,624,000 | 1,045,230,000 Same weapons organized by rarity and lethality Common Makarov - 355,600 M1911 - 486,150 Revolver - 833,400 Double Barreled Shotgun - 900,000 Winchester - 10,125,000 Lee Enfield - 26,888,000 Uncommon AK-74 - 24,498,000 CZ550 - 32,000,000 AKM - 54,000,000 Rare M9 - 1,000,125 G17 - 1,133,475 PDW - 666,750 | 1,333,500 MP5 - 2,667,000 M1014 - 9,000,000 Remington 870 - 9,000,000 AKS-74U - 16,332,000 M4A1 - 31,995,000 M24 - 32,000,000 M16A2 - 42,550,000 M14 - 80,000,000 DMR - 128,000,000 Very Rare SVD Camo - 80,000,000 M249 SAW - 31,995,000 | 213,300,000 Mk 48 Mod 0 - 320,000,000 M107 - 450,624,000 M240 - 480,000,000 Extremely Rare FN FAL - 64,000,000 AS50 - 450,624,000 | 1,045,230,000 Some early observations: If you ever felt that this game has become a sniper party, it's probably because Rocket is encouraging it with drop rates. These weapons are exceptionally lethal at every level of rarity compared to their counterparts. By the time you get a combat shotgun, you're guaranteed to have a much more lethal weapon in your inventory already. Which is probably why no one carries combat shotguns. The FN FAL is as rare as the AS50 but its lethality is equivalent to the AKM. I think this is why I have never personally seen a FN FAL except as a spawn. There are of course plenty of arguments to make about these weapons and the value of one element of lethality compared to another. However, barring the subjective nature of weapon preference, comparing two similar weapons gives a concrete idea of how dangerous one is compared to the other if they are suited for the same task (comparing types of weapons, for example).

I once spawned there four times in a row for some reason. Anyway, easily found an M1911 two times, never found a single hatchet. To this day, I have never seen a hatchet in Kamenka. My advice? Don't bother stopping there, a waste of time. There is a deerstand or two on the way to Zelenogorsk. If you're lucky, you might find something of use. I usually find chemlights and ammo. Zelenogorsk on the other hand is a goldmine. Mountains of hatchets and food and maybe an alice pack or a map or compass. Sometimes several handguns and rifles lying around as well. But you're wasting your time if you don't make a mad dash for it as soon as you spawn.

Sure, put on that full suit of plate armor. And give up your backpack slot. And ability to sprint. Or run.

As much as I honestly like the idea of more elaborate interaction with the world, I can already picture the incredible amount of server manipulation, metagaming, and automation that will be necessary to keep these camps running on a decently-sized map. Next thing you know there will be requests to make it so that no one can touch your stuff without your permission (much like the current responses to people looting camps). I'm not against the idea. I would love to see something like this in action. I just see a disaster in logistics waiting to happen as people realize that DayZ is not a safe place to establish a home unless you can hide it from other players at will.

Like I said, I don't care as long as all of the other damage in relation to it is appropriate. If the shotgun is doing 6000 damage, then the 7.62 round shouldn't do more than 800. If the .45 is doing 1300, then the 7.62 should be doing less than a thousand.

"tl;dr Fuck science. The 7.62 NATO round is ah-MAAAAAAY-zing and OP is stupid." Got it.

@Quaby Not that complex. Bigger holes = more damage. If you can calculate the size of a hole in a human being, you can find the authentic damage a weapon will do. Everything else is to defend my point and preempt people pulling out the meaningless "temporary cavitation," "shockwave," and "kinetic energy" mythology. @LOG!N I might not have been clear. I just want to fix the damage tables so they reflect reality. I'm not proposing a new system. Big fat holes from permanent cavitation cause 99.85% of bullet trauma, so the volume of a wound channel is the most authentic basis for bullet damage. Anything else is a completely different discussion. @Malorcus This was calculated based on effective range. You can see the optimal velocity on the wound channel charts in the top right corner. As an aside, I believe weapons in this game already have effective ranges coded in, so that's not an issue. Assigning the right damage to the right bullets is the issue. Extra status effects could be added. But I feel that's a discussion for a different thread.

We already have bandit and hero skins. And while my general good nature and calm demeanor are probably why I haven't gotten a single murder yet, I find it hard to believe that everyone is just freaking out and killing people mindlessly even when it's obvious who is and isn't a bandit. Just...stop pulling the trigger. Seriously.

I find this acceptable. I will enjoy shooting your dog and eating all of your food. Also, this will only be acceptable if burning crops is an option if we have a pack of matches or a flare. It wouldn't be fair if someone could just plant a field full of crops, log off, and have it all be untouchable until they get back. That's just nonsense. So, yes on crops. And yes on salting the earth so nothing ever grows again.

Short and sweet. The M107 and AS50 rifles weigh 30 pounds. This is two to three times the weight of the other sniper rifles and up to four times the weight of the assault rifles and shotguns. The M136 recoilless rifle/rocket launcher only weighs as much as the M24 but the inventory system forces you to replace your backpack to use it. Meanwhile, the .50 caliber rifles are twice the size but go in the primary weapon slot. The .50 caliber rifles are a foot longer than the other sniper rifles and about three times as heavy but get treated like they're the same class of weapon as other small arms. They're not. Instead of Videogame LogicTM, it'd probably be a good idea to rethink how encumbrance and weapon slots work with weapons over a certain size replacing your backpack. Small arms in the primary slot, one-handed weapons/handguns in the secondary slot, and oversized weapons that you can't wield standing up going in the rocket launcher/backpack slot. tl;dr .50 caliber anti-materiel rifles are HUGE. Put them in the rocket launcher slot replacing backpacks.

What about ill-tempered sea-bass with lasers?

What servers are you playing on? Where do I find them? And can I have their babies?

Show your dick long enough, everyone will get to see it. Congratz!

You don't have to be immune to death to explore the map. Unless loot farming is why you're playing the game...

According to a thread discussing this elsewhere on the forums, the reason the light machine guns and anti-materiel rifles sometimes don't fit in your backpack is because they're the original Arma II weapons scripted in. They broke apart the backbone on them and found that the DayZ version of the weapons have _dz attached to the end, meaning that the versions that spawn normally were specially created for the mod to ignore imposed size limits placed upon them by Arma II's original code. In other words, .50 caliber rifles and the LMGs that do 8000 blood/bullet seem ridiculous because the developers of DayZ specifically buffed them to encourage players to hold onto them over more reasonable weapons. EDIT: For now, I'll have to load up Arma II and check myself on the M107 and AS50. But Arma II's website confirms that this is the case for all LMGs, something changed for the DayZ mod to make them more appealing to players.

Interesting. I won't attack your idea on its merits, but I will say that we have a food icon and a water icon. I think any stamina system should focus on these two. I believe that sprinting currently drains your food and water faster. I know that hyperventilating due to fear/pain causes your food to drain faster. It's possible that hyperventilation triggers from running too far, too, but I don't know. Maybe up the amount of food/water drain from sprinting. Up the amount of time spent hyperventilating after sprinting. Make it impossible to sprint while hyperventilating. Up the food drain from hyperventilating. And you've got a harsher stamina system built on the current one.

While possible, that is also really stupid and makes no sense. (Not a knock against you, kudos for figuring it out.) While we're at it, why are secondary weapon animations so horrible. You auto-kneel to check your pack even if you're prone? Come on, now, BI.

I like this. Although, zombies can attack while swimming, so that would hilarious.

Oh, 10 hours? That's longer than most games. Ten minutes to completely resupply? Yeah, we need to get rid of tents and storage right the fuck now. Early game isn't for you, it's for newspawns. Stop fucking newbs over with game redesigns because you're bored.