L0G!N (DayZ)

The long wolf has actually been taken into account at every step of this suggestion, but it assumes a certain type of lone wolf, one that focusses on surviving mostly, aka. 4 slots is enough to take the needed survival tools with you: knife, matches, hatched, canteen; and thus you can easily play as a lone wolf, the pouches will increase your abilities even more. And there is nothing saying you can't drop tools in your tent and pick the ones you want for that play session ... find a car? take the tools for fixing it, make sure you pre-cooked meat incase you get hurt, and drink soda ...Sure it reduces the easy mode lone-wolf play, but it surely doesn't make it impossible, just a bit more challenging to promote teamplay and in some cases reduce KOS behavior ... BTW. I am still somewhat in doubt about the minimum amount of slots on the toolbelt, i am thinking maybe 5 could be more forgiving, so seeing you dislike the restriction, would 5 slots please you enough ?

They have all been eaten by Zombies !

A student just gets a backpack? wth! .. what about, you are the only one that can write, leave message on a map or leave notes, or make entrances in a log book? I don't like these restrictions one bit, and btw. have you ever tried flying a chopper in the game or for real, how do you know the ingame controlls and handling are not very close to real and at least 'authentic'. I happened to run across a hacked-in chopper a few days ago, and couldn't resist getting in, i managed to lift it about 1m off the ground and crashed it forward into the trees, not so easy as i thought! Same with all the other things, actually these work just LIKE classes, and restrictions are the death of any sandbox game...

I do not mind people disagreeing with me, not at all, actually it makes discussion all the more interesting. But I have quite some aversion against power language, considder yourself [report]'ed ... Ever considdered that the people in Cherno might well have a tuxedo in one of their closets, why shouldn't we be able to find it? And ever considdered it may have been a bit of humor... though my first point is still valid, why should everything be 'usable in a zombie apocolypse' you don't wonder about empty tin cans that way either I assume, so why would a tuxido be all weird, all of a sudden? Besides maybe i want to run around like James Bond, or even get married inside DayZ, so please think before you vent your frustration on a single thing you don't like, and please cut the power language, it doesn't do anything but make you look stupid!

Ok done typing for now, pffieww that's quite a list, hope people have some feedback :) ... also wonder if i should use a spoiler (to hide the text beneath each topic) to not scare off people that fear 'wallz of text' ?

@Ruarz, i think you 'forgot' to distinquish between medical casts and makeshift splints to deal with broken bones. A splint could be crafted from rags and wood, while a medical cast would be found... another think you forgot are crutches, a makeshift crutch from wood and actual medical ones ... if you are including amputation and loss of limbs i think it's only fair to give the players a means to deal with it ;) ... what about a wheelchair ?

Tnx Nihilisst, you will find various things you mentioned to return here :) ... I linked my learning-by-doing thread in that conversation as well, as i thought i was clearly related, but i noticed that in the learning by doing thread i could not include other kinds of progression a character could 'undergo' during their lifetime, some of which are clearly related to the 'full physical' thread. If you are interested, the please read it: http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/44341-full-physical/ various aspect in that thread will return here, in a more 'progress related' fashion. :)

reserved space This post will eventually hold the content of the OP from this thread: http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/32582-learning-by-doing-the-alternative-to-classes-professions/ Though it could do with a lot more feedback b4 i include it, so head over there and read the OP and give your opinion(s). If you think you already read it, then be adviced that i updated the OP on 9th aug. '12 with a lot more details!

The simplest way of making death harsher is adding in more kinds of character progression(s) that are lost when a player dies, and can't be retrieved... - Make part of the items in the inventory break upon death. - Make clothes unretrievable - Add learning-by-doing skillsets that get reset on death - Add other kinds of character progression (stamina, strength, endurance) that get reset on death Then there is also the general game, which are bound to come! - Fixing hacking (so items can't just be spawned) - Fixing Duping so items can't simply be reproduced - Add more presure on loot tables by adding in more items to spawn, which causes 'needed' items to spawn less (aka. more garbage, and low tier items, less high tier).

I had this raised b4, and in part i can see the point, on the other hand and at first: this is still a game; second, there are a lot of pouches/bags suggested that wouldn't be big enough to hold just anything. f/e if you google for pictures of ammo-belt-pouches you will notice that these are generally big enough to hold say 4 magazines, sure you could put a bandage in there or anything small, but no drinks or cans. Then there are specialized pouches (like the knife holster f/e) that can't realy hold anything else but the specialized tool, they are just not formed to hold anything else...The only thing i can think off to make it more 'realistic' would be to put more restrictions on the inventory system. And that would be to work with slots, but to give each slot a certain volume as well (so not the whole pouch volume, but each individual slot to have a max.volume - and in some very specific cases to be able to combine the volumes). So taking that ammo-pouch again, it could have 4 slots where each slot has the volume of a magazine, seeing these pouches usually actually have these pockets for the magazines, you would not be able to combine the volume of these slots to fit something big in there. But anything smaller than a magazine would fit, say bandages, lighters, matchbox ... but it be a fairly complicated inventory system to make though... So the biggest 'issues' i think, come from the medicalpouch and the toolpouch (and some other 'bigger' single volume pouches), as people reason, well i could fit X in there in real life as well. But if you look at a medicalpouch, and toolpouches aswell, they 'again' tend to come with various 'slots' and straps etc. for various tools, that each have a clear limit on the volume they can hold. So yeah, if the above more restricted way of dealing with volume/slots would work, then that be great...

Why not use search, and find the 'learning by doing' thread? i updated it yesterday with a lot of details on how various skillsets would work, and against my own preferences I even added the custom character creation option. Even though i prefer to have everybody start at the same level... And i would love all yours feedback on it, so please do read: http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/32582-learning-by-doing-the-alternative-to-classes-professions/ and leave your views...

ROFLMAO , sorry OP i mean no offense, but it's realy late for me and this post made me laugh so hard !!! ...While i like your suggestion for it's creativity, i doubt if it would fit in DayZ and appeal to the FPS crowd. It could appeal to the 'i am legend' (i think that movie was called) fans though... It sounds more like a 3rd gen. MMORPG ingame puzzle though, dare i say it, it may well fit in realy well with that other game, for DayZ not so much, but thats just my views ;)

lol :P ... well i guess you atleast took the effort to look and read it, and even though i don't agree on the KotH thing, you earned your beans :)

So true! ... it be a great way to leave a 'I was here' message too!I think a lot of people misunderstand the OP though, and respond from their basic understanding of how money works in other games. All the OP says that money-bills should spawn in various places and that these would likely be considdered another form of 'tin can' spawn. Inflation or moneysinks etc don't realy matter, whether the money is used doesn't matter either. That it could be used is another thing entirely, and as we all don't know what the game will turn into eventually, it may well be a very usefull item once civilisation as restored in certain parts of the game world, by clans alliences or w/e ...

Sure i do :) http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/45284-control-old-industry/

I agree with the OP, it would actually be weird NOT to find currency all over the place, as it's a commen item that would have been around when 'it' happened. So comming across it should be fairly commen. It could have some use as a fire starter, or fire bundle though :) ... but otherwise, i can see how we would be able to find it and from there on can decide whether we use it or not ...

I would like to see the shovel also linked to the ability to 'hide corpse', the animation for it somewhat suggest burrying, so linking the ability to a shovel or entrenching tool would be somewhat logical.

I am realy hoping more people can contribute to this thread by identifing more 'skillsets' within the game that do NOT easily transfer over from IRL skills, but would lend themselves to a 'hidden' progress system. Or provide more examples of how progression within the already identified skillsets could take shape. Heck even 'you should exclude this skill would help out'! So, a lot of threads have been active lately (i saw atleast 4) about a class/profession/traits/perks system for DayZ. And while a part of the community seems to like this kind of system, there is also a large part of the community that doesn't want to see put '+1 to running' to run faster, in the game. I am of the last catagory, there are tons of games out there already doing this... and while i hate to say it, if you realy like those kind of games go find one that has it, infact it be hard NOT to find a game with some +1 system in it ... BUT ! There is a system that I could live with, and best to describe it is 'learning by doing'. It would be a hidden +1 system that is influenced by nothing but a players actions. A system like this doesn't have some tree showing you are lvl20 in hunting, nor would it let you choose to put points in hunting yourself, you won't have to find books, you just play the game. And the more you do something, the better you get at it. Given ofcourse the thing you do is 'suited' for a system like this! (see a list below of the things that you as a player can get better at yourself, and where a +1 system doesn't make any sense). As a general rule of thumb i have the following in mind: each character would start at a 30% proficiency level, through their actions they can gain a 50% proficiency level fairly fast, the climb from 50-75% takes twice as long, and the 75-100% proficiencly can be smeared out over a long period of time. These percentages are not your 'fail/success' factors, but just a way to show the overall skill level in each skillset. While i personally don't endorce it, various people have expressed they want to determain their own 'starting level'. Aka, they want to start off their character with their own choice in 'skills'. I think a system like proposed here could work that way, each player could get a certain amount of points to spend in each catagory, and these points could related to the aproximate 20-40% starting level proficiency. As such a small starting advantage could be gained, but always at the cost of another skillset, and never limiting the character to develope all skill, nor get an added bonus at max 'level'. Hunting/Gutting: Gutting is a thing you have to learn by doing, and there are definately risks involved (spoiling the meet). Every player would start out with the ability to gut an animal, given they have a hunting knife, with the following restrictions: - A player starts out with getting 1 or 2 pieces of meat, with a chance to get more depending on the size of the animal. - A player has the chance to spoil the meat (open up the guts and get feaces over it) As you gut more animals, the game should register this with a +1 counter, and after gutting say X animals the chances of getting an extra piece of meat go up, and the chance of spoiling meat go down. Untill at some point the chance to spoil meet is very small (say 95% as you can always make a mistake), and you get the maximum amount of pieces of meet from an animal. *!* extra: if arma has the option to track where you 'hit' an animal when you kill it, this should factor in with the chances that you spoil the meat when shooting. That would realy start to distinguish a hunter from a killer. The animal could have 3 hitboxes, head, torso, belly. And hitting the animal in the head would give 0% chance on the meat being spoiled; hitting the torso a 30% chance; hitting the belly would give a 80+% chance of spoiling the meat. Once the meat is spoiled it doesn't matter how well you gut it, it will be spoiled. The texture of the meat should give hints to the status of the meat. This to add a bit of IRL knowledge of killing animals for consumption, and player awareness in regards to the meat they get from the animal. Medical Assistance: Applying first aid is something you mostly have to learn by doing, and there are definately things that can go wrong. Every player would start off with the ability to perform the following medical assistances/first aid, but with some restrictions: Bandaging/stitching*/Tourniquets*: Applying a bandage/stitching*/tourniquet* (* = see 'full medical' thread) is something you would learn, and there are definately things that can go wrong, like failing to apply it correctly or hurting the player. Every player would start out with the ability to stop bleeding, but: - There is a chance that you fail to apply the tourniquet correctly, you would regain the tourniquet to try again. - A bandage may fail to stop the bleeding, you would have to apply another. - Stitches may be to loose failing to stop the bleeding, you would have to try again with a new thread. - All these may have a chance to give a shoot of pain to the player, causing them to shout in pain, or give them 'mild pain' as a result. (see 'full medical for different states of pain') - If wounds would heal over time, then all these sollutions could have a 'durability' linked to them, which could also depend on what the wounded player does during this time. This could mean that your sollution to the bleeding only works so long, and thus the wound may start to bleed again. The more sollutions to bleeding you apply, the game should register this with a +1 counter. After applying say X sollutions the chance of failing applying them should go down (to say 95% as you can always make a mistake). The chances of causing pain to the player would go down (to say 95% as you can always make a mistake), the chances to cause end result pain should go down aswell, except for the tourniquet which is said to hurt no matter what. And the durability of your sollution should go up, giving a bigger chance that the wound doesn't start bleeding again, regardless of what the player does during the healing time. *!* extra: it may be extra cool to have indicators for different kinds of wounds, cuts, gashes, artery bleeds. each giving a different bleeding animation on the victim aswell, and have the various sollutions relate in effectiveness (chance to success/durability of the choosen sollution) with the kind of wound it is. Cuts would just need a bandage to prevent infections (other sollution work as well), gashes would need stitches and a bandage to prevent infection, just a bandage would have a higher chance to fail), artery bleeds would need a tourniquet and bandage. f/e! Bloodbags: Putting needles in somebody is a thing you need to learn by doing, and there are different risks involved (putting a hole in somebody that hurts). Every player would start out with the ability to apply bloodpacks, but: - When you start out you 'only' administer say 500HP for a pack, with a chance to get 0-300HP more. - You have a chance to 'hurt' people by sticking a needle in them, causing pain. The more bloodpacks you apply, the game should register this with a +1 counter, and after applying say X bloodpacks the base amount of blood you administer goes up, and the chance you apply more increases, while the chances of hurting people go down. At some point the chance of hurting somebody is minimal (say 95%, but you can always make a mistake) and you administer the maximum amount of blood from a pack, which would be 1500HP (based upon 1,5pints of blood in a bag as per the Full medical suggestion thread). Administering Injections: Anything related to administering medication through injections (methadon, anti-viral/fungal/bacterial/dotes, epipens). While i am not entirely sure if this is worth it, still using anything with needles takes some practice (though little) and you can hurt people or even mess up administering. Every player would start out with the ability to injection, but: - when you start out there may be a chance you only inject a certain amount of medication, causing only a certain amount of benefit to the player (f/e a 20% chance of epipens reducing unconcious state to 50% of the duration instead of fully awakening, or methadon only giving a % of the time it relieves pain) - You have a chance to hurt people by sticking a needle in them, causing pain. The more needles you inject (including bloodbag needles), the game should register this with a +1 counter, and after injecting a player X times, your injected medications work more effectively, and the chance to cause pain reduces. Setting casts/splints: Dealing with broken bones is something you can't just learn out of a book, you need hands on experience. And various things can go wrong, mostly hurting a player realy bad (or even setting a bone wrong leaving a person with crooked legs, or weak legs prone to break again). Every player would start out with the ability to set casts/splints, given you have them, with the following restrictions: - You have a chance to fail setting the bone, your cast/splint will return to your inventory and you can try again. - Given broken bones heal over time, your cast/splint will have a certain durability related to your skill level, and 'breaking' of the cast/splint will also depend on the players actions with the fix. - Given broken bones heal over time, your cast/splint will have a chance to cause 'shoots of pain' due to the quality of your setting. - During setting you have a chance to cause pain to the player with the broken (bones) As you set more legs with splint or cast, the game registers this with a +1, as you increase you skill level your fixes will fail less often, the durability of your casts/splints will increase, as will the quality, and you have less chance hurting the player (upto 95% as you can always make a mistake). *!* EXCLUDED from medical: taking painkillers, applying heatpacks, coldpacks. Mechanical Engineering: Fixing a vehicle is not something you just do from a book, its something you learn by doing mostly, and there are different risks involved, like forgetting to connect the fuel line and setting yourself on fire, or not tightening a wheel well enough and loosing it. Every player would start out with the abitlity to fix any vehicle, given they have the tools, with the following restrictions: - You may fail to repair something, you get the part back and have to try again.. - You may break the part, and thus fail the repair, you have to get another part.. - The repair only last 'that' long, aka. having base durability. The more broken down things you repair, the game should register this with a +1 counter, and after fixing X things the chance of failing a repair goes down, the chance of breaking parts will go down (but you can always have a dodgy part, also see extra), and your fixes will be of a better quality, so the car is less likely to break down again. *!* extra: Components used in repair could have stats of their own that influence your chances of successfull repairs (mainly the part breaking and the durability of the fix). These could be 100% 'as good as new', 70% partially rusty, 30% totally rusted. These parts would not come with a clear description of their stats, but their textures would clearly distinguish from eachother. This includes a bit of IRL commen sense to fixing vehicles, being able to both distinquish these parts and understanding how a fully rusted part is likely to last shorter than an 'as good as new' part. *!* Electrical & Structural/Civil Engineering *!*: While both are not yet in the game, i think it's fairly reasonable to assume these will be in the game eventually. Generators have already been announced, which opens up ways to include electrical engineering, and we all know that base building will eventually be in the game as a form of 'end-game', which opens up ways to include structural/civil engineering. I personally think there are various ways that restoring functionality to certain buildings could make use of both electrical as well as structural engineering skillsets. Details are currently obviously hard to give, but these two skillsets could well follow a similar setup as Mechanical Engineering, as well as benefit from the mentioned 'extra'. List of EXCLUDED 'things' These are all things you as a player will learn yourself by doing it, you will find out where to shoot for the quickest kill, which inclination or bumb you shouldn't take while driving, or when not to make a 360 in a helicopter. There is no +1 system for this, except for the one build in, in your own body & mind! - Health Points - Shooting guns, aka. accuracy - Driving any vehicle - Flying any vehicle as long as controlls are fairly 'authentic'

Updated the OP with more details on 9th August, please read it again as it gives a much better overview of what this system could be like ... Seeing i value input even though i might not agree with it, i also added the optional starting levels to be changed by choice. I would prefer everybody to start equally, but i can also see other's peoples preference to have some sort of starting choices which could fuel their roleplay experience, it would also give a player some sort of idea of what this character was before (s)he ended up being a survivor. @Roast Lamb, while i need to let it sink in a bit, one thing that did cross my mind in relation to your post above here, is that IF a novice performs a certain action close to somebody that would be an expert (say a 30% higher level in the particular skillset), that the game could give a +2 to the novice instead of a +1. Depending on how it is set up, it may even be possible to give a novice a +0.25 for being around an expert performing a certain task. As learning by example is also a way to learn IRL. ;) ... but i'm just done typing this and it's nearly bedtime, so i'll sleep on it a bit ...

I don't like this suggestion at all, as it means lone wolfs can never truely learn skills? ... there is also no reason why a person can't learn by trial&error or rather, learning by doing. If anyone has any constructive critisism feel free to join in, http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/32582-learning-by-doing-the-alternative-to-classes-professions/ , i am almost done fully revising the OP ... all the people that want to scream NOoooo, you just had your fix, please read the full topic and discussion, if you still feel negatively about the suggested learning-by-doing suggestion please leave concrete reasons asto why you think it's so bad.

@jokye & Tarkastio, I know this is a very extensive suggestion, that tends to be the case if one tries to collect and combine all sorts of medical ideas into one thread. I personally think the Dev.team should look at this as a full list of options and means to achieve them. Adding in everything may well be to much! But there are some realy good ideas in this compilation thread (and not all are mine, i just reformulated ideas i picked up reading this forum, i hope to put up links to original discussions at some point) ... so don't see it as one big suggestion, see it as all sorts of things they could do, and now its upto the dev.team to pick those that they like best or feel best fitting for DayZ

Seeing Arma is likely to register which hitbox is being hit when a player dies, it just popped in my mind that a headshot may mean that a player can not be ressurected, as that would make no sense ... no brain, no life ;) ... i would like some reflection on this before i add it to the full medical thread, if you will :)

Various good suggestions in this list, feel free to skim through the post linked in my signature you may run into some added ideas or even good threads to link to, in regards to various suggestions in your list here. I also did two 'compilation' threads which are an assortment of similar topic suggestions (full medical, full physical) that may be worth a mention in your list. Also feel free to go through my suggestions (threads are linked) and leave comments, i saw we had some similar ideas independant from eachother, where you included something that i didn't, but i also have some ideas that could well add to yours :)

I will add a link to this thread in the 'full medical' thread, this has obviously been suggested various times already ;) ... but i hope to put links to discussions in the full medical thread that deal with each individual 'idea' in that compilation thread. Seeing this is the latest that popped up, it spares me some time searching for one :P ... Current collected 'means' to ressurect someone, taken from the 'full medical'-thread. - There should be a short time window in which a player can be ressurected given the proper tools/meds are applied. - Defibrilators could be added to the game, giving a chance to ressurect a freshly killed player. - Adrenalin shots could be needed aswell - Any state the player was in, f/e bleeding, thirst, starvation, broken bones, etc. should reappear, needing to be dealt with. - The player would ressurect with a very low amount of HP, so (a) bloodbag(s) could be needed aswell - The player would likely experience pain as well, so painkillers and/or methadon may be advicable. All in all resurrecting a player should take a great effort and thus have a great psychological impact. It should not be a mere 'shock' and play on experience.

I agree with everything EXCEPT it being in the hands of some clan holding some arbitrairy building, we don't need one clan controlling everything and have people fight over this, it will end up with just fighting and no RTS ever being used. Give every player the ability to restore parts of the civilisation that was, and make a good resource system to go with it. Clans would still fight over the resources, but atleast they can all restore stuff ... there was a much better suggestion dealing with restoring civilization around not to long ago... it also had way more examples of things that could be restored by players, small groups or full blown clans or even alliences. So please! Remove the king of the hill thing and you can have some beans...