Legio23

I used +P and +P+ as an example for those with an inkling of real life experience as most shooters would instantly recognize those as being hot rounds and for the most part, supersonic, though anyone can go online and wiki their little hearts out.

Well it would have to be this for me, I'm just a FALoholic

Go check again bud, you obviously have never handled or fired a Glock in your entire life. The Glock 19 comes in one caliber and one caliber only and that is 9mm. Also don't tell me that they are all the same because they are not, the dimensions are different hence different gun, different slide (yes the slide is redimensioned) and different name. Its like saying a G17 can fire 45ACP when clearly it can't. But this is about a game that we play so not going to get into the arguement about rechambering pistols, dimensions, pressure tolerances, silde and frame tolerances, accuracy, ballistics etc. It is what it is so just call it right its a Glock 38. I'm sure you wouldn't dream of calling an AR15 a glorified M16 just with the bells and whistles. If we want this game to be precise and as realistic as possible then shouldn't we also be as accurate as possible?

Of course it doesn't generate a supersonic 'crack', the whole idea of this weapons was to use subsonic ammunition the SP5 or SP6 pushing between 900 and 1000fps otherwise it kind of defeats the object doesn't it? Who the hell would use hot +P or +P+ loads through a silenced weapon when the whole idea is to keep the weapon as quiet as possible. If you're going to start spouting make sure you know what it is you're talking about. Anyone who knows anything about firearms would know that a weapon such as this is designed with the use of subsonic ammunition in mind. The effective range of this weapon is 400m tops and as Gews rightly points out the drop is horrendous

9mm para is a current and widely used caliber, 45ACP is a widely used caliber something like 5.7 is on the other hand not, its like hens teeth. More divergence in calibers means having to search it out and I think will only add to the reaslism and enjoyment of the game. It will force people to make descisions on what they carry, there is no point in lugging around a P90 for example if you have a near impossible time finding the ammo. An FN FAL or an AK on the otherhand where ammo would be more widely available would be worth the time of hauling around.

Well quite true Gews this weapon would never even be considered by military forces and was as you say designed solely for the civilian market. To be quite honest its a damned awful weapon, huge, heavy and unweildly but for some reason some people get a hard on thinking about it.

G19 isn't in 45 GAP its 9mm, its either the G37 standard, G38 compact or G39 subcompact. The 37 is ok to fire but the 38 and 39 are just awful, tons of recoil, muzzle flip and reduced accuracy due to that plus G.A.P ammo is damned expensive and difficult to get hold of unless you load your own. The G21 is in .45 ACP and is a much nicer Glock to shoot, nice smooth push and good in the hand, they also have a tasty throw away silencer that can be attached to it. Personally wouldn't touch a Desert Eagle if you paid me its heavy, loud, inaccurate and for wannabes and those that think they know what tactical is. A USM1 carbine weighs less than a .50 desert eagle, the smaller models in 9mm etc are Jerichos not Desert Eagles and the only thing similar is the shape, more or less, of the slide. Five Sevens are rare as it is and though a great pistol to fire the ammo is very difficult to come across rarer than hens teeth really. P90 is a specialised weapon used mainly by spec ops, gov CPO teams and the occasional contractor so really don't see where that will come into the game at all? there is a civilian version it has a long barrel quite a bit longer than the military version. As for the tacticool, as you put it, weapons well the only one in there that even should be remotely put in the game for me should be the FN FAL as its been widely distributed around the world (lovely weapon to fire and DS arms do a great modernised version). The G36 has been around for a while and could be possible as with the mini 14, the ARX160 and Scar are not widely used or distributed but hell while we're at it why not add the FN2000 and Famas F2 while we're at it. As for the other choices got no probs with them, I would even add the Remington 870 as another alternative shotgun as it is also widely distributed in both military and civilian circles and the Tikka T3 rifle in some of its versions.

I've fired both military and civilian firearms such as the M4 variants and AK variants among others; quite a number of the civilian versions I've tried have actually been more accurate than their military counterparts and just as tough. The moment you are dealing with a 'civilian' version of a military weapon, the military weapon generally becomes the baseline of which other companies wish to improve upon, just in semi auto only for most. As for large numbers of ammo variants, why ? I wouldn't want to burden myself down with several different types of ammo in the same calibre as a standard 5.56 round or 7.62 will cover most jobs, though I would not be against adding standard HPs for the 9mm and .45ACP

well sounds more like the shotgun is hugely underpowered rather than a problem with spread or range, as at a distance of a couple of meters the guy should be well and truly dead with both barrels even offloading one barrel should suffice.

Now that is an excellent piece of kit which I had many years of joyfully using and believe me with that little baby night becomes day :D

Nice but if the creator of this post wants them only to be available in the NW airfield which, lets be honest is a bit daft considering the amount of military bases on the map, then they should be military types only. Those ones are a gen 2 perhaps gen 2+ civilian model. They're ok but aren't a patch on Gen 4 mili ones.

The only way to carry out an effective test is by using the weapon itself in both its formats and using the ammunition that has been used, only then would there be a real result. For the moment it is pure speculation for the spread, though agreed they do look on the large side for the long barreled version especially at 15 and 25yds and more than large for the sawn off version. However, we can agree that fifty yards is generous for distance. Myself, I rarely take a shotgun over 30 yards unless using slugs where I'll take it out a bit further.

The only way to carry out an effective test is by using the weapon itself in both its formats and using the ammunition that has been used, only then would there be a real result. For the moment it is pure speculation for the spread, though agreed they do look a little on the large side for the long barreled version and more than a little large for the sawn off version. However, we can agree that fifty yards is generous for distance. Myself, I rarely take a shotgun over 30 yards unless using slugs where I'll take it out further.

57 inches is large spread for 15 yards I wasn't aware that it was that large at all, but, I stand by what I say that a sawn off shotgun I would not consider effective over more than 10 yards anyway. and as I stated in my first post 50 meters for a standard shotgun is a generous distance which is 54 yards, 200 meters (220 yards) for a slug accurately is just ridiculous. Even with using proper pattern sheets for different ammo and you can look at the test below: 25 yards and some cartridges are already giving 27 inch spread with pellets missing all together with a tactical choke, without a choke I would consider that they would be giving more in the region of +32 inch spread at 25 yards and also taking into consideration that is with an 18.5 inch barrel. Therefore at 54 yards the efficiency of a shotgun, again depending the cartridges, is minimal at best you may get a pellet or two in. I'd be quite happy when I get home in the next few days from work to go and do some testing but it won't be with an SBS or sawn off as they are considered naughty where I am so it'll be 18.5 inch barrel. ;) Spread reduction I can agree with to a certain degree but unrealistic distances...nope... which was actually what I started with disagreeing about in the first place.

Lol seriously you really need to learn something of ballistics and shot spread. Honestly if I didn't know what I was talking about I would keep quiet. I've been shooting for many years both in the military and civilian, work and competition reloading my own cartridges and rounds. If you actually reread what you have written then you would work out for yourself how ridiculous it sounds, of course its birdshot, so imagine the spread of 00 or 000 buckshot with a sawn off shotgun if birdshot spreads like that from a full sized shotgun. I think anyone with an ounce of shooting experience would be able to work out what I am putting forward. There, that is at 15 yards (13 meters) with a full sized human target and 00 buckshot (specific home defence) using a full sized 18.5 inch Benneli supernova. So now imagine that at 50 meters or from a sawn off shotgun or do I need to go on? I rest my case. ;)

If you want this game to be as realistic as possible then they are quite fine as they are. Thats a standard non choked spread of birdshot at about 25 feet or just over 7 meters, so just please try to imagine what a sawn off shot spread would look like at that distance and seriously reconsider what your saying. Thats an A3-A2 sheet of paper

Anyone who really shoots a shotgun knows that over 80 to 90 meters a slug is very inaccurate though still remains lethal well over that range. Recoil from a slug especially a 3" magnum 50gr load is horrific to say the least. As for pellets and spread, well that depends the type of cartridge and its load but over 25m you can expect large spread and for it to be ineffective, that's why most shotgunners opt for full or half chokes to improve this depending what they are shooting (can't use chokes for slugs). As for a sawn off shotgun depending the load its barn door accuracy at best over even short distances. So to conclude a 50m range on a shotgun in game is actually quite a generous distance. What they could do is add a drilling, for those that don't know what this is, its shotgun barrel(s) and a rifle barrel combined which can be a variety of different calibres. The more common types are side by side shotguns with a rifle barrel underneath though other variants exist. (plus they're fun to shoot ;) )

Yup same here, its a very comfortable weapon system to fire that I enjoy very much and again quite quiet in comparison to 7.62s which has significantly more recoil. So you get my beans

As Garberro already said it is, at best, a precision selective fire integrally suppressed carbine, that can at a push be used to carry off precision shots just like any other selective fire assault rifle. Also effective max range is a lot different to effective combat range. Stick a x4 or x6 military type scope on a standard suppressed M4 with a good shooter you get the same effect, yet would you class that as a sniper rifle ? I think not. If it doesn't have 1 MOA or less then I wouldn't touch it as a 'sniper' rifle with a barge pole and personally I prefer with 0.5- 0.75 MOA such as a timberwolf or coyote. But I'm nitpicking, because I can. But this is a game and not real life so what the hell it is a nice weapon system and would be great for CQB.

If everything needed to be taken into consideration for a shot at 1000m or more was put into effect, ie temp, altitude, weather conditions, windage, type of ammo, hot or cold barrel shot, MOA, type of scope etc etc then why not. But lets be honest thats not going to happen so 600m would be a realist distance and at that range .308 or 30-06 is very effective (along with quite a few other calibres). Would be nice, if, they brought in these types of weapons systems and scopes that the devs at least account for windage and elevation adjustments on the scopes, because lets face it basic ballistics have to come in so therefore a shot dead center at 200m will not do the same at 600m. Lets be honest who the hell would want to lug around 14.5 mm rifle?

Only helped out a couple of people and both times been wasted, so now I don't befriend and just go with my squad steering clear of others. We don't KoS but they get too close they get told to move out and find elsewhere unless they decide to have a pop then, unfortunately for them we return fire.

The Mac 10 and 11 both made by Ingram, the Mac 10 chambered in .45ACP and the Mac 11 chambered in 380auto/ 9mm short. As for the IMI Uzi all its different models ( standard, mini, micro) are all chambered in 9x19 (9mm luger/para). The Macs without the suppressor are pretty useless weapons due to their light weight, high rate of fire and very short barrel, though the .45 is a slightly better model of the 2. They are very short range weapons and again without the suppressor are only really accurate to a distance of 10 meters after that its pretty much squeeze and hope. The Uzi standard and mini are much more effective SMGs with far greater accuracy and a much more stable weapon system. Both the Uzi and the mini Uzi have been used by many different military units and CP teams proving its worth. So if it was a choice out of the 2 systems it would have to be the Uzi no doubt on that.