taco86

Well, arrows/bolts will zip through soft kevlar... But the plate/hard kevlar, and stab resistant kevlars will be nearly unaffected by them. The amount of KE an arrow or bolt has is also extremely low in terms of projectiles these armors are designed to defeat meaning that trauma behind the plate or stab resistant soft kevlar would be extremely minimal... We're talking energy lvls about 1/10th that of a typical heavy weight boxer or mma fighter's punch, 100ft/lbs vs 1000 ft/lbs. Everything else you've stated here is generally correct though, minus the 55gr m193 vs steel armor. Most lvl3 ar500 steel armor today will defeat very large numbers of these rounds even as a standalone. If you put some frag protection on that ar500 plate and place it into a kevlar carrier... You get the idea, m193 55gr are not going to be punching holes in modern ones at point blank, let alone normal combat ranges... They certainly were capable of punching through the steel plate armor used during the late 80s and early 90s though, so that point has some merit.

I believe one of the arguments for it not being a m4a1 is that the art is not actually of a m4a1 (not sure). Either way, a mid-full length ar-15 with solid style stock (i believe @ctorchia tweeted about this) suits the S-1 or S-1-3 fire modes better. There are two military rifles that standout as filling this "niche" in the m16a4 and the mk12spr, both have reasonable "setting" based ties to the m4a1 that currently exists. The m4a1 has been fielded by the marines i believe starting in 09, so it's existence could be explained as such making the presence of the m16a4 explained. The mk12spr has been extensively used by US Seals, which have been using the m4a1 since it's introduction. Somewhat off topic, but this game needs an ak74m asap. Should be a low recoil bullet hose with reasonable accuracy and nasty terminal ballistic wound characteristics. Projectile energy is only slightly less than m4a1, and probably a little bit more than 20% less than a 5.56 out of a 1/7 20 inch barrel.

I'd love to see the recoil of a full length ar-15 with full length gas system and rifle buffer tube compared to the ak74... My money is still on the ak74, but m4a1s have noticeably more recoil than an m16a2.

I've got to be honest, my honey moon phase with dayz is certainly over... At this point I see it for what it really is... Great concept, bad execution... Snails pace development along with a god awful game engine... My opinion is that if the quality and rate of development does not increase, the increasingly negative community will become overwhelming.

If they add pooping into the game I uninstalling until it's modded out...

If you currently have a 32 bit version of windows 7 installed you're going to have to reformat with a 64 bit version from a buddy. Last I knew, there is no difference between a 32bit and 64 bit key, simply the install disk... When I originally built my computer I ordered a 32 bit version of windows 7 by mistake (yep, ima fool). Luckily my brother was building a computer at the same time and I just used his 64 bit disk and my key. There has never been an issue and I've reformatted several times since the original build.

Much of the 2-3 shot issue comes from very thin targets, at ranges that exceed effective fragmentation. Another issue is that if the round passes through the relatively empty space of the lungs it may also not tumble and frag properly. In these situations you will probably have a through and through wound with a permanent cavity about as thick as the broad side of the bullet, this would pretty much be the ideal situation if you were shot center mass by a 5.56 and is completely survivable given immediate medical attention. If a person is thicker, or has kevlar or some light gear on them they are going to get smoked, especially by the m855 and even more so the m855a1. The projectile will deform, fragment, and dump the majority of it's energy before exiting the other side, this situation would most likely be lethal, even if highly trained medical personal are present. The m193 is the 55gr projectile with probably the most lethal fragmentation available for 5.56 against unprotected tissue... These are just as much "poison" bullets as the soviet 5.45x39mm... If you're hit by one of these and it frags inside of you, you're certainly dead unless extensive surgery is available or even possible... Many times the surgery required to save someones life would certainly be lethal, these people commonly known as the "walking dead" are usually patched up, and simply made comfortable till they pass. Overall I think this thread has gotten a little bit away from what I intended, which is certainly a result of myself derailing as much as others. What i'd like to see for the xbow is for it to consistently knock out a target with 1 (most likely 2 if healthy) bolts, with a third killing... Arrows and bolts should also be almost completely useless against the anti stab vest, ballistic plates (once they are added), and hard lvl IIIa kevlar (mitch kpot ballistic helmet). Given this, I have no issue with the m4a1 retaining it's current damage so long as an 18 or 20 inch barrel ar15 derivative is available with slightly more stopping power *cough* mk12spr *cough*.

I personally think this "pistol" is a bit silly... The good news is it's not going to use mags which would have further diluted the loot pool making finding a pistol and mag combination even less likely. edit: The team needs to diversify the 7.62 round asap... This means both 7.62x51/.308 and 7.62x54r...

Lipemr, the religion you speak of is known as "mindless fanboism" and it's sadly been around for a long long time... In the end, as long as someone understands that fanbois are more detrimental to the development of a product than critics they will be alright.

Smgs and compact rifles better fit in your bag so long as no mags are currently in the gun.

Pretty sure it's you who did not fully read the changelog... The portion that discusses zombies taking near endless body shots is listed under "known issues"... If you had been playing on experimental or following the development of .44 over the past week you would know that zombies taking 10+ fire axe hits is not fully intended... .45, the experimental patch that was pushed yesterday has zombies back to dieing in very limited body hits...

Pretty much everything you've stated is comparatively wrong... I'm not trying to be mean, but an arrow or bolt has no where near the stopping power of the vast majority of fire arms, most specifically HV rifles... So yes, in terms of both KE transfer, and wound channels, an arrow or xbow is certainly "childs play" when directly compared to rifles. "A bullet will just pass through you if it is powerfull enough" this quote shows me that you simply do not have an understanding of terminal ballistics... Generally the faster a rifle round is moving, the faster it will dump energy when it hits animal tissue... This has been explained in detail within the thread, please go back and read the specifics if you're having trouble understanding. P.S. A 7.62x51mm m80 round has roughly 30x more energy than your typical hunting xbow.... like so... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGYF8DTLcj4

The damage that a bullet inflicts to an animal is pretty much based on three main factors... How much energy the projectile has, how quickly the projectile can dump it's energy, and of course what specifically is destroyed within the permanent and "temporary" wound channels. In terms of a 5.56, the faster it's moving the faster it dumps energy while also having more energy. Gel tests show a relatively significant difference in terms of amount and rate energy is transferred between the m4a1 and the m16 as an example. There is no doubt that the same bullet fired from a m16 is measurably more effective than the same bullet fired from a m4... Velocity is massively important when it comes to terminal ballistics.

If we get a .223/5.56 bolt gun, I'd hope they go with a 20 inch barrel variant. I'm not 100% sure on the exact figures, but a 20 inch barrel produces close to 20% more muzzle energy than a 14.5 inch barrel. A .223/5.56 bolt gun could even be modeled as using 75-77 grain match ammo as well, significantly increasing the effective range. Either way, there are completely plausible explanations as to why a full length .223/5.56 rifle would do more damage than a carbine.

I'd rather see them skip the civilian ar-15 and just toss us a mk12mod0 spr instead.

If you're comparing an arrow with even a small caliber HV rifle like a 5.56 you're simply wrong... A 5.56 causes SIGNIFICANTLY more trauma than an arrow or bolt... Both will destroy or very significantly damage any organ they pass through, however the effect on the tissue beyond the initial wound channel is FAR FAR greater in a 5.56 or any rifle. The rifle rounds just have so much more energy and transfer FAR FAR more much much faster.

I'd say it all depends on what the .22lr hits... If it manages to pass through w/o hitting anything substantially solid, sure, I'll take the .22lr... However if it does hit anything solid, like say a knuckle? Yeah, you've got exploded bone bits and fragments everywhere and no chance of any kind of surgery success in saving your finger and the surrounding area... In this situation I'd much rather have someone jab a knife into the top of my hand.

I think this point is very important. Having a system of hit boxes within hit boxes (much like WOT and War Thunder) would be fantastic imo. Implementing a similar armor system in which only very minimal damage is sustained if a bullet cannot pass through would also be fantastic as well. While I know this is not a "simulator" like Warthunder, Warthunder has been able to do allot with how realistic their damage is calculated. What I think makes this so impressive is the volume of fire represented in war thunder... Many of the aircraft are capable of shooting more than 120 projectiles a second which all have rather robust ballistics and terminal ballistics being calculated... The game also has a system in which you're not dead until your pilot is shot or very critical portions of the aircraft are destroyed such as wings. Most of the "hits" simply cause damage to components of the aircraft which obviously negatively impact the aircraft's ability to fly. This is a system of hit boxes within hit boxes done right and the number of calculations going on in WT far exceeds any firefight that happens in dayz.

This is a topic about the relative lethality of the crossbow, not a topic about balancing spawn rates of m4s and crossbows...

While certainly the reason and answer to my initial question, I clearly don't like dropping realism for "game play"... Some realistic projectile physics and wounds in this "anti game" would be very welcome. It is unrealistic though... Take a look at what a crossbow does to simulated animal tissue, then compared it to a HV rifle round such as the 5.56... Now either projectile will be lethal if it hits a lethal area, however the trauma to the body in the case of the 5.56 is many magnitudes greater... As for the bolt, you have a relatively consistent and controlled wound channel. In the case of the 5.56, the initial wound channel may be more narrow, however once the bullet tumbles and disintegrates you've got many pieces of copper/lead moving through your body at over 1,000 mph dumping their energy. The result is several ragged, unpredictable, and permanent wound cavities which are surrounded by several inches of mush caused by the 50+ gs caused by the bullet fragments transferring energy resulting in rapid temporary expansion of tissue... HV rifle rounds can literally turn your innards into bloody mushy goup, an arrow or bolt fired from a modern bow/xbow does nothing of the sort.

I did not misunderstand your post scruffy, I just think it's misleading... I commented on the .22lr in my post to attempt to highlight that even one of the least powerful cartridges ever produced still has about the same or more energy than some of the most powerful handheld crossbows built... Now if we go back to the general topic of the thread which is m4a1 vs crossbow, you can easily see that stating a crossbow reaches similar energy levels of chemically propelled projectiles such as the 5.56 (which you did not specifically do) is a bit silly... The simple reality is that arrows and bolts do not even come close to the energy levels of bullets unless you look at extreme examples.

Uhhh, cross bow bolts rarely exceed 450 ft/s.... How is that "about as fast" as a .357 magnum moving 1,400 ft/s? Furthermore, 2 and a half foot long chunk of wood? Most xbow bolts nowadays are made of carbon and close to 1.5 ft long...

Scruffy bandit, a modern hunting cross bow has the kenetic energy of a .22lr... That's about 4 times less than a 9mm, 4.5x less than a .45 acp, almost 15x less energy than a 5.56 m193 fired from a 20 inch barrel, and about 30x less energy than a 7.62 nato m80 ball... Bolts and Arrows being more lethal than bullets is specifically video game and Hollywood BS...

What are you even talking about? Knife wound causing more pain and a larger cavity wound than a bullet? You're nuts man and talking nonsense. A knife generally leaves a very "controlled" and predictable wound pattern that is relatively easy to treat in comparison to gun shot wounds... A wound from a modern HV military rifle leaves a very chaotic wound channel making them very difficult to treat... Lets not forget that the tissue surrounding the permanent wound channel of the bullet has just eaten 50+ gs and been turned to bloody mush as well...

You would rather be shot than stabbed? Now to each their own, but I find that extremely confusing...