V4ReVolution

It's an entirely irrelevant point of argument to debate the KoS issue from a moralistic or human nature angle in the context of a digital, virtual interactive representation of a hypothetical zombie apocalypse scenario. A Video Game. No matter how realistic, authentic or immersive that game feels, you play an Avatar that has hunger, but you yourself the player do not feel hunger. Your avatar can feel pain, you yourself the player do not feel pain. Your avatar kills, you yourself the player does not kill and as a result do not feel the potent cocktail of intense emotions that such an act would undoubtedly give you. Whether it is right or wrong, whether you enjoy it or not. So it's a pointless debate, arguing the KoS issue from these stances is the wrong way of looking at it. "If the apocalypse was real, everyone would shoot every god damned mutha fukka because XYZ, blah blah beans" "You have to protect yourself and your chances of survival and the best form of defence is offence" "Killing people increases my chance of survival" But I will humour the argument anyway. Why do you think we want to survive? Is it a choice? Or is it something inherent that we share with all of the animal kingdom from germs & amoebas to plants and complex lifeforms. I would suggest that the instinctive motivation for survival is not a choice. I would also go one more and say that all life forms have an instinctive motivation to assist in the survival of the entire species and not just themselves individually (This is not a ground breaking new theory of mine) actually this is a theory that has been tested, observed and validated. It is widely accepted that all life forms have two main motivations, survival of the individual and reproduction (passing on ones genes to future generations) it makes no difference that we as humans can cheat this by using contraception. The overwhelming majority of individuals desire sex when they come of age. This is evolution (or God if you like) telling you to go fuck someone so that the species does not die out. Now there are of course exceptions to most rules and they are of course just that, exceptions, not the rules, not typical and not average. Some individuals are asexual, that is, they have no desire to reproduce, I don't know of any myself, but I do not doubt that they exist. Other individuals desire to kill other people and feel an intense hatred for other people or an empty indifference, I do not know any personally, but I do not doubt their existence.They are exceptions to the rule. The rule being; Every living individual has an intrinsic desire to survive (as an individual) & reproduce (survival of the species) Extreme conditions will undoubtedly give rise to extreme behaviours. Competition for scarce resources or breeding opportunities will be ripe conditions for violent conflict between individuals of the same species. However, we observe in nature that these conflicts rarely result in the intended death of another individual. (for the benefit of those finding this hard to follow, I of course refer to same species) You often get people who cry "BULLSHIT! Animals Kill each other all the time!" yes they do, they hunt other species, I am talking about competition between two individuals of the same species, these conflicts rarely result in the intended death of the other. For those talking about Human Nature of which we are all experts and none of us know a damn thing about it. It's a loaded term that actually means nothing and should be relabelled "The Nature of organisms" because there is no definite "Human Nature" for a start X% of people claim they only DO good because of fear of GOD another Y% of people believe that we evolved altruism. Who is right and who is wrong? Who WANTs to be right? What does it even matter? My own personal belief is that competition for resources and breeding opportunities is a very real and tangible thing that we as higher thinking lifeforms are not excluded from, all we do is complicate the basic principles and make it abstract, but it really isn't. I believe that MOST people have to feel like their own survival or that of their group is under direct threat to be able to kill easily and feel that we did so justifiably. It's not a natural desire to kill other people. My assertion, theory, prediction (not my own known fact) is that in an extreme hypothetical situation of an apocalypse, people would not kill as easily and readily as they do in this game. Of course not, it's a game, I have "Killed" literally THOUSANDS more "people" in games than I have in real life, and none of those killings made me feel anything long term. It's a game and "Human Nature" has nothing to do with it, even if you could assign a proper meaning to human nature, everyone has their own opinion on what that is. It's a game, tackle the KoS issue from that starting point, don't make it abstract or over complicate it. Also the invention of firearms changed everything, it's way too easy to make "Bad people" go away.

I hope that they never ever make zombies less of a challenge. Make them harder and increase their number.

Bachs rescue remedy.

yes, Yes, YES!!! You shot that god damned mutha fukka in da face, this, my friends is the essence of DayZ. I almost came.

The sun does not take no prisoners.

Yeah I am down for a system of trade. Let's base it on two things. 1. Resources ( Items, loot) 2. Negotiation ( Interaction with other players, in game, forums etc) And nothing else. No monetary system. No currency. No semblance of a prior existing civilisation. Also, I really like the idea of the blackboard. In concept, an expansion of the pen and paper we currently have would facilitate much more creative ways for players to interact, with trade being chief amongst them.

Looks more like a straight than a flush.

It has no scars, worm holes, pits or any other blemishes. It has however been left to go from ripe, to fresh and eventually to degrade and rot.

Want me to give 'em a 'Clip' round the ear?

A. Ukuntz B. Bandages, Blood and something to regain consciousness C. Balota - Regular D. Black Pants, Green Coat, Black beanie, Blue Mountain Backpack Dead - Unconscious in Balota

A. Ukuntz. B. FOOOOOD, blood and something to wake me up C. South Border of Zeleno D. Black Chick, Black Tactical shirt, Olive Cargo Pants, Cowboy Hat Died

Conscience*

I want a huge variety of clothing with particular emphasis on common civilian clothing. I woukd like each and every character avatar to be unique through having access to a mass range of civilian clothing and for any military clothing or armour to be much rarer. I prefer dressing my character in non camouflage clothing. As a result I go for black or tan military shirts to complete the look. I lose 2 inventory slots through opting out of wearing the camoflage jackets. Those of us who would prefer to role play wearing civilian clothing should also have larger slot clothing available to us. Off the top of my head, Sheepskin coat Rain mac Leather jackets Business suits Flat cap Trilbys, pork pie and bowler hats Top hat Panama and fedora hats Goggles Fleeces Waist coats Crocodile dundee hats Bowling shirts Sports amd lesiure wear Muscle vests Religious clothing Police/ fire and ambulance uniforms Work gear High vis clothing Jumpsuits and boiler suits Bandanas, scalves and caps worn in different manners. I.e scalf or bandana tied as dust mask. Band t shirts (or fake ones if copyright issues) Christmas and other wooly jumpers Bath robe Baseball jacket Parker coat Some of these suggestions are more practical and sensible than others but practicality of certain apparel in the apocalypse should not be a determining factor in its availability. Perhaps make the more obscure ones rarer. I would very much like to see rarely two characters alike as opposed to now, everyone is special forces. How about a dry cleaners or clothing store dotted across the map. A treasure trove of lootable clothing.

BIT OF A WALL - BUT INTERESTING CONCEPT Solution for Excessive Murder - Unbiased Consequences for actions This is not a bitch post about bandits, murderers ruining my game. I believe, like many others, that once you've learnt the basics of the game, bandits/ killers/ Confrontations and stand-offs with other players present possibly the greatest thrill in the game. However I am strongly in favour of realism and I believe that the level of aggression and senseless PvP killings is massively unrealistic. Of course, we can only speculate how we would behave in an actual zombie apocalypse when encountering strangers, but I think we can all agree that in general when we encounter strangers; We would be much more alert, paranoid, suspicious, distrusting and yes, when it came down to it, we would rather kill them than be killed by them. However, I wholeheartedly disagree that this would turn 90% of survivors into serial killers without remorse. The reason is, most people would still have a moral sense that killing is wrong and would actively seek ways not to kill someone until they absolutely had to. Of course, the socio paths of society would have a field day in a zombie apocalypse and probably dream of once frequently, but for the rest of us, it's an escapist fantasy, it would be a waking nightmare if it were a reality for us. So to summarise, the senseless killing in Dayz is massively unrealistic based on my own speculations which I believe are reasonably accurate. The bottom line is in a game where player deaths feature, even deaths such as in Dayz where you lose everything. It is still not a great loss to die and therefore killing without a second thought in Dayz does not trigger strong emotions or reactions of "I am about to do something really bad, what consequences might there be?" There is no and never will be REAL sense of danger or loss in a game. But, we can simulate it to an extent. My solution. For every PvP kill any player makes, self defence, senseless shooting, robbery, betrayal results in punishment, punishment that affects survivors equally as it does bandits. The punishment is, 5 minutes unable to move or do anything after next logging in for every kill. This would put them in danger of being found defenceless and would also be highly annoying. Think of it kinda like karma, or a killer answering to god. Whatever you think of it as, the practical reason for it is to make killings less random murder, and more for legitimate reasons. most players would not want to kill the first, second and third person they see just because they can. Instead they may avoid the first, he's not a threat, have a Mexican stand-off with the second, but agree to go their separate ways, and slaughter the third since he stupidly opened fire and missed. Does this just affect bandits? Yes bandits like killing, but would they be so keen to have 10 murders if it meant that next time they log in they have nearly one hour to wait before they can actually play. Does it affect survivors? sure, survivors kill too, usually in self defence though. The point of this suggestion, which I am sure will be met with strong negative reactions from Mr Billy Bob Bean Bandit and his DMR. Is not to punish one particular style of play, not to punish anyone for that matter, but for there to be a powerful driving reason not to kill everyone you see, but to plan your murders more carefully. Kill by all means, but even a psychopath in real life would consider the consequences of his actions, a psychopath in real life would carefully select his victim. Choosing to proceed whether the reward for killing is greater than the consequence for killing. Risk vs Reward, essence of Dayz survival I think. The one thing a sniper in the hills far away does not have when selecting his next victim is much risk. With this, he may think twice about his actions and ask himself "shall I let this one go and wait for a better target" Some players, regardless of the risk, will continue to kill endlessly because that's what they enjoy, the average player I believe, would curb their enthusiasm about killing everything with a gun in it's hands. I don't know if this is possible, but as a concept for addressing the issue I believe it's worthy of consideration, although the specifics may need to be tweaked to find the sweet spot. Another variation could be that one murder could be equal to the same time constraint as 100 murders. Each kill giving you a random time constraint, maybe two minutes, maybe 20 minutes, you'll never know until you log back in. Should the constraint be in place for every log thereafter for the duration of that characters life? I don't think so, one punishment per kill. But maybe, I'm not sure exactly as to the specifics, but the concept is a good one. I think it's realistic to be startled and open fire in close quarters. I think it's realistic to kill when you perceive a threat to yourself. I think it's realistic to kill for robbery (to an extent). I don't think it's realistic to be shot from the other side of town by a guy who just likes to f*ck your day up and has no intention of entering the town. Those types of killings should be the rarest of all. So you like killing and robbing? Fine, carry on, you'll be punished in the same way that those of us who avoid killing and robbing are. A pre determined amount of time for each persons blood on your hands. You have upwards of 10, others have an average of 2 or less.

I was going to respond with a thoughtful argument addressing some of the key issues above. And in particular, this comment; But I fear this thread has gone downhill all too soon and I will be withdrawing my contribution from this thread after this post. I am not interested in debating psychology with anybody in this forum, human nature, god, law, evolution, ethics or altruism. These subjects are a huge bone of contention across a wide variety of people and opinions are based in belief and people attach emotion to faith. So that is why, in a gaming community, I will be avoiding these debates. Although I had prepared to touch on some of those subjects, as I said, a thoughtful case for my opinion that 90% of survivors in a hypothetical zombie apocalypse would not become mindless serial killers would not be met with the same degree of thought from the opposition. I am not going down that road. I will finish up back where we started and I will state the obvious in numbered list fashion. 1. A very large consensus of this community believes the murder levels in Dayz is excessive. 2. An equal or possibly marginally higher proportion believe the murder levels in Dayz is not excessive. 3. Another proportion of the community simply don't care enough about this issue or play enough hours to have an opinion. I think that covers everybody if my maths is correct. So, assuming my maths is correct, there is a huge conflict of interest. A compromise needs to be found or else we risk alienating and driving a huge part of the community away. I don't want a chatroom with zombies, nor do I want a deathmatch with zombies. I want something in between, I want a non linear, non objective based, non team based, open ended, never ending, zombie survival horror RPG based shooter. I want realism from the mod as the engine intended. I want realism or as close to realism from the dynamics of the game play through to the thoughts and the fears. I think that is possible, as we're in alpha now and it almost feels right, but we're not quite there yet, I think that's where the mod is headed anyway so we're bickering over moot points anyway. So thankyou all for your worthy input, apologies to those whom my egregious rehashing of an old topic has severely offended, good night. P.S You can sleep easy tonight with my full assurance that my ambitions are not to work within the gaming industry.

I agree with the above post, have a read through of my other reply, it outlines a different method. It is a variation of an already existent suggestion. Not sure if It's possible, but it is something that actually adds something to the game as well as reducing excessive murder.

That's actually a great alternative. So the effects of the "insanity" are increased with every additional kill? I would suggest that it is only reduced after time and only reset after it has returned to 0. This prevents disconnect and reconnect abuses. As for the effects of the insanity itself. I suggest that they seem real to those suffering from it. For example s player can hallucinate any or all of these effects; Glimpses of fake players, hiding, dashing, aiming ay them. Gunshots at various percieved distances. Aggro and non aggro zombie noises nearby, glimpses of non existent zombies. I hear that many killers suffer from waking nightmares. A way to reproduce this in game could be to have horrifying blood soaked faces flash up on screen randomly for a split second covering most of the game area. The effect of hallucinations of players and zombies might not be that great when they are in the wilderness, players would be safe assuming that sighted zombies and players would likely only be hallucinations and therefore harmless. These hallucinations compromise their safety when in towns looting as a player can not safely assume that what he sees is harmless to him and he would therefore act in much more paranoid and jumpy because he can not be certain as to what is a real threat to him and what isn't. I think this is an excellent idea, but I'm sure that scripting ai that are harmless and only visible to specific, players at random intervals, once they have triggered it would be difficult at best. That said, if the effects of these hallucinations and waking nightmares on players who have killed vary from unnerving through to outright panic, fear and a blur of reality and imagined. I think we have a powerful counter to excessive murdering as well as an interesting new game dynamic. Good suggestion, mine seems proomitive in comparison.

And so you would shoot a guy from 1km away and then leave to wander back off into the woods? That's a realistic survival strategy?

I am located in the countryside not far from Elektro. I have been looting and foraging the town for a while on my own now and have some decent gear. Too many close calls with bandits and the odd close shave with Zeds has given me cause to ask for a survivor comrade. If you are near Elektro and looking for a good partner, read on. I am online now as of Thursday June 14th, 1800. Nothing is more important than my own continued survival. Our bond with each other is nothing more than a mutually beneficial arrangement so that we increase our odds of survival. If you do anything to decrease my odds of survival, I will abandon you at the first opportunity. You like making noise and fast movements around Zeds? I abandon you. You like getting into unneccassary fire fights?, I tuck tail and run. You take the wrong risks at the wrong times? Sorry, you're on you're own. If you threaten me verbally or physically or in any way seem untrustworthy, sneaky and conniving. I will shoot you dead without remorse. I would expect no less from you. If you understand this, then we can have a productive partnership. What do you get out of the arrangement? Do I seem unfriendly? I assure you I am not, just understand this, NOTHING is more important than my own continued survival, if your own survival is of paramount importance to you, then you understand. I am neither friendly nor a bandit/killer. I have killed before, usually in self defence, some were reflex actions made in a split second when an unfortunate guy surprised me, I can't take any chances. I do not stalk and hunt human prey. I tend to avoid contact if possible. Will I be friendly to you? of course. Provided that you increase my odds of survival and that you allow me to increase your odds of survival. I have been surviving on my own for a few days now, I have all the gear needed to live off the land away from major population centres. I am well armed, and have a tent ready to set up at a location of our choice. I want you to be smart, tactical, skillful and above all else place your own survival above all else. I am also looking for proof of your good nature and commitment. So be prepared for a task as a token of your good will. If you can do this for me and you share my mindset, then I look forward to hearing from you. I am not interested in clans or large zombie magnet groups, I just want a guy to watch my back when I turn it, not shoot me in it, I will do the same for him. EU/UK time zones, to play in the evening. Respond here with your interest and I'll PM you. Have your skype ready.

How well equipped are you?