Ken Bean

Are you not able to immerse into movies or books? Not? Then why watching or reading? Just think about and see how the "1st person = immersion" argument is nonsense. Ever played Jagged Allience 2 to an extend? It can happen that if you dream or take a pie after a session you are actually thinking about how many action points you need to make your way to the kitchen. If a third person turn based game can create such a situation, then point is proven, doesn't it?

No, I just mean everyone grows up some insights.

You will come to the point as well sooner or later. Might help to not to fanatise a perspective (which alone means absolutely nothing).

Am I right that you merge with your computer, reaching a new level of being? Your eyes and you body disconnects, you feel the pixles, and then you fload into the the matrix, right? Yes, everyone who is immersed does it all the time. ^^ Nah, I know what I like and frankly am not convinced of the *super immersion* is the shiz. Came along all my life without that marketing term. All immersion for me is nothing else than dense believable atmosphere. Importand is, the entire world must be consitent. Then you can 1st person throw out of the window. The whole is more than the sum of its parts. And 1st person for me just is a minor important part.

Nah, ever seen someone moving his body while playing a 3rd person racing game or a jump and run like Super Mario Bros? They move their body becuase with the situation, they feel like being connected. Also the folks which starts moving in movies, boosted a bit by 3d. @(TMW) Marion Mic Beans for good taste. And the 1st person preference, well, we all have our own idiosyncrasies.

If there's a third person in, the player char should be able to be customised. This probably helps people to identify themself with the avatar they are playing. Some seems to see the avatar as a stranger as long as they are not in 1st person. Just an idea. Good news. Don't know, they seems to have the time. It's not that expensive, but time intensive. I'm certain they do test what they can. They still have to work on the netcode which will still take some time anyway, I've read somewhere. I for myself would drop the 1st person entirely, at least I'd only let ironsights and scope views in 1st person in. Or inventing a 3rd person fight system. (It's a little late though)

Yeah ^^ ... well, sooner or later you will get the function behind it. I just can point out that maybe one of the, if not the, difficulies video game ever made is an iso perspective 3rd person player game. And that seeing your character in the world not only is a barbie clothe thing. If you ever have been to a movie in the cinema, big one, like the old Indiana Jones movies, sth like Lord of the Rings or maybe Blade Runner or a film by Schwarzenegger or whatever, you can get sought in. Its not like "Huh, the movie is 3rd person, I'm not in 1st person the hero, I absolutely cant watch it..." Nope, 3rd person actually woks and even pretty well. Almost every movie out there is made in 3rd person. Almost? Except films like Doom, the last minutes. And if you have a cvloser look, a film in 1st person does not work that dandy. :-/ Funny, yes, but not convincing. Also games like Gothic 2 are extremely convincing. They create immersion even better and deeper than any of the *1st person supper immersive* games I played. It's like beaming your charakter into the world, rather than letting him sit outside.

In my opinion there are 3 options. 1. We find a compromise both factions could life with. 2. One of both factions doesn't get what they want. 3. Choice: Both types exist, there are 1st and 3rd person server, situation as it is now, maybe more 1st person server, since that view finally has been fixed in the SA and it is playable without the flaws the mod still has. .. sth forgotten? I'd vote for #3.

Sounds like seeing nothing. Almost funny. :)

I can read it as often I can, this wouldn't bring your opinion to that point to light. I just try to explore your tollerance. You say what you cant accept and maybe tell why.

What about a function which zooms the 3rd person view smoothly constantly closer and closer to the character the closer you get to a struckture, like a building or a wall? The zooming could find its endpoint in 1st person view. Edit This only will confuse the player. Bad idea, very likely not nice to play.

Maybe both types automatically go into cover near a wall or corner and have a certain pose which offers a certain view. The view is very restricted and tries to simulate real viewpoints and angles.

What about if a player, who spots you while he is in 3rd person cam, gives away his position by making a natural sound like coughing? You'd be warned and know the direction.

Lets explore the room or condition in wich both philosophies could coexist. What do you think about a cover system?

So as it is, you couldn't life with it. What are the conditions which must be met, that you could? Whats the major point of concern? Given we want to reach equal chances between 3rd person user and 1st person user. Is while crouching that view okay? http://1.1.1.4/bmi/www.loaditup.de/files/784245_3ayd9tdku7.jpg While standing is tricky. Usually you cant hide behind small wals, as you stand way out, but those corners of buildings or walls which are taller than a player, it still can be abused. Might be kind of a cover system? Lets say on walls or buildings etc the player goes in cover, meaning certain positions would use a certain cam view/angle which offers very restricted viewpoints?

What do you think about my proposal at post #1452? Could you life with this mechanic? Point is, you wouldn't need to use it and if the other players do, would you care?

4 player on DE 128. My sig actually works! @Sobjeski12 & SoulHunter & Dsi1 What do you think about my proposal at post #1452? It would reduce the abuse of the "exploit" dramaticaly if the player is lying or crouching. Could you life with this mechanic?

Thank you sir, I noted your say and promise to consider this. I still want to add that things which don't exists in real life can exist in games. And this is not wrong in every case. 3rd person basically works very well as gameplay element. There is that ugly tiny exploit which is being abused just from the moraly twisted folks, which might be tweaked in a nifty manner, but don't say its something that would be per default barred out. It's just difficult. -- The more I think about, a mechanic like this could work: - If the player stands upright and is running upright, the 3rd person cam stays as it is. - If the player is crouching (standing still or moving), the cam is zooming in, like you would tab numpad + ----> And if the player looks left or right, the body automatically bends over into the oposite direction. (If the player looks to the right, the upper body bends to the left. Like leaning out of the cover.) - If the player is lying, the 3rd person cam goes straight top down, so no angel offers a view to forward, backward, left or right. But you can see you big fat ass like god would see it and even your feet and the end of your weapon.

It because they never actually made a game, so they don't know how pointles their realism and 1st person fetishism is when it comes to a bigger picture and an actually enjoyable game. Under the bottom line you have to make a compromis and most realistc things just doesn't work, are not practical or otherwise too difficult to implement. You broke a leg ingame? How long do you want to wait until you can walk again, if ever? Can you imagine how complex a true health system for player can be? Its not something which is processed realtime in all its realistic details on every computer. And it doesn't make fun to do many things in actual realtime. 3rd person is enjoyable and practical for games. Just forget once the realsm thing (which the 1st person view is neither) and you may sdiscover that 3rd person indeed has advantages to offer. Yeah, without a device you can't look in real life through a third person perspective, but in real life you also cant run 20 kilometres and back with full backpacks every day. You lose maybe some teeth as you grow older and maybe suffer serious aches. Your cartilages in the knees may start to disappear and as a result you might not be able to crouch any longer ... Goes on and on and almost never ends. And I know that you guys are not the ones who have to implement it. And yet you are the first who complain because cutting an animal may take half an hour and collecting wood another. "When do I have time?", you'll ask and "I also have a real life.", you'll claim and then you say "Playing this game would work, if I had two lifes or if the day had 48 hours." and then you leave and say "Realism is not that bad, but you really can go way too far." and so on... ;)

Some guys of you may not want to believe but being realistc at all cost in every regards is 1) more complex and difficult as one may think and 2) doesn't always work as a game and 3) is most of the time not very interesting.

Yeah, I thought so. You guys really touched my heart. I'm going to stand up for your thing. It has been long time ago since I felt so engaged last time. Anyway, since you guys constantly say, 1st person server is only for über-pro-hardcore-player, all the player may think, 1st person might be nothing for the "normal guy". Thought about that and absolutely makes sense. So maybe wee need to nerf the 1st person server a bit? Apparently the super-über-difficulty is nothing realistic? It's just waaaayyy too difficult and clearly must be adjusted so that normal average player can play. And the best thing is - if anyone is questioning my findings - I have absolutely definitive proof. This thing happened before, with another game. It's not the first time a game destroyed itself because of the difficulty.

Whoa, interesting. I thought I'd convince some 3rd person player to join 1st person server. As you guys say 3rd person player are seeking for easy mode. Life on 1st person server currently is totally easy. The situation may change, as soon as we get such a server being populated.

Did we found a solution yet?

I would love to play on 3rd person server but third person server are too over-crowded all the time. Just way too many player which makes surviving really difficult. So I play on 1st person server instead. No other player disturbs my save and easy going, absolutely no PvP, just relaxing and nice! And the best is: All the loot is mine!

I dont care. Not my cup of tea. Yours?The shift of gameplay will lead to a shift of the audience. 1st person focus generally would be able to boost sales beyond good and evil. There are many 1st person lover out there...