hal269091

I have found a few discussion in this forum about morality in gaming, but those seemed to be focused on player's chosen actions rather than game design. So I want to ask, if anyone gets bothered by the way the Standalone allows to torture other players, by handcuffing and poisoning them, or beating them while tied until they bleed out. We all got used to kill other players in online games. Of course, from an ethic point of view that's questionable, too. But on one side in that case chances are more often kinda equal than not (probably most people will agree that killing unarmed freshspawns is not something to be proud of, as it does not require much skill). On the other side a game that wouldn't offer that chance to compete with other players would be pretty boring. But how about holding up unarmed playes, handcuff them, poison them, beat or hack them and watch them bleeding to death? In other words fulfill some weird sadistic fantasies? Of course I know that most players wouldn't probably enjoy doing such things. Or at least feel bad after they 'tried' it a first time. But that is not the point. The question is, if it is acceptable that a game does provide the opportunity to do so? Of course, its just a game, just pixels on a screen, with a bunch of calculations behind them. Not real by any means... In addition its cool, to make a game as realistic as possible. Seeing that, could we have rape implemented as well? That would be very realistic, in a place like infected Chernaurus. and hey, its just pixels... Or could we have Children implemented. For sure there would be sex amongst so many survivors. So there would have to be Children, whom we could rape and/ or torture, too. It's just pixels... We could have cannibalism implemented, and also the ability to dismember other players. Both quite realistic, both just pixels in a game, not real... Maybe you can see now where I am coming from. The question is: Are there in fact any limits about what a video game should offer players to do ingame, or should we implement everything thats realistically possible? And if there is a limit, where is it. Is torturing still within that limit? Is rape? Is voilence against children? For me personally torture is off limits, I simply wouldn't want to play a game, that allows players to do so, especially in such a placative way like the Standalone does. I did play the Mod a lot, but its unlikely I will support the Standalone by buying it - despite I do in fact like a lot of the other things the devs have already implemented by now. But that's just my personal opinion, and its not my intention to offend or judge anyone who sees it differently. I would be very interested in hearing your opinions, especially if the would come supported by reasonable counter-arguments. Not just related to the Standalone, but to the questions asked above applied to online video games in general, too.

@NickHutch: Rape is off discussion - so please stop talking about rape.

Not bothering to read previous post might sometimes result in missing the topic: Rape is off discussion! Torture is already IN the game to a degree, even though not intended as such. Please read my last post a few scrolls above and you might recognize the topic of this thread. Thanks.

@Kaboki, @babypuncher: Will you please stop ranting and insulting eachother, thus spamming my thread with posts, that don't lead to anything but having that thread closed soon????

What you state is not true. I never assumed nor stated that torture was or will be an intended mechanic in the game. What I saw in a VIDEO on youtube gave me the proof, that the ability to torture other player IS in fact in the game - not by intention of the developers IMHO. Nevertheless real. I was disgusted and I wanted to hear other players opinons about that fact. This discussion has gone off topic by quite a bunch of posts. 1. It has at some place developed into a discussion about whether rape, cannibalism or the ability to dismember active avatars should be implemented or not. That was never my question. I used those just as an example what COULD theoretically be added for the sake of an ill-going realism. Just to make readers think about if torture (intended o not) MIGHT fall into the same category. 2. It has at some place developed into a discussion about legal issues. But I wanted to ask a question about morale and ethics - not about laws that might prevent a game to be sold appropriately in some contries. 3. There have been example of other games or media, with similar images shown. But I wanted to discuss about THIS game, not others. On top of that, we don't know if other games or media are right, that would require another discussion about the respective media. So please don't use them as examples, because they could be questionable as well. To make it clear: I am 100% sure that all those atrocities I mentioned to give EXAMPLES of how worse it could be in theory, if we would JUST think of realism and put that above anythig else, leaving morale and ethics aside, will NEVER EVER be in the game. And that's good. I am 100% sure that none of the Devs EVER had or will have the intention to implement torture mechanics meant as torture mechanics. But when I saw THIS video, it was my personal conclusion that, by 'misusing' game mechanics not intended to torture, you CAN in fact apply torture. I don't know if I am right or wrong, its just my personal feelings. And I wanted to find out if its just me, or if other players feel the same way. And if they won't, what would it need to have their individual border crossed. If some of you don't consider this to be torture, so be it. If some of you find it funny, so be it. If some of you consider it to be softcore, so be it. I am not and will not be judging - I am just asking questions. So guys, please cool down and move back to topic. Please stop to discuss pros and cons of other things than the torture mentioned above, please stop to discuss what local laws might allow or prevent. Please just tell your personal opinion about the 'torture-related' actions from that video, as well as similar ALREADY POSSIBLE game actions you can think of, but not shown in that clip. But not about stuff that IS not in the game and will as wll never make it there. Of course you might have to mention those other atrocities to describe where your personal border is, but - please - stop discussing them as a possible addon to the game. I know i am not a Moderator, so I cannot tell you what to do, and what not to discuss here. But I am the creator of this thread and so I beg you to stay on topic and use my thread as intended. Especially as everyone of you can easily open his own thread to discuss other stuff. So please don't be offended but try to understand my intentions. Thanks. PS: Especially don't spam my thread by calling other people names!!!!

A very delicate distinction you make... Put in other words: If game mechanincs not intended to be used for torture, can nevertheless be used for torture by players who are smart enough, it will be tolerated. But it's not the intention of the developers to implement torture. (correct me if I am wrong) In case I am right with my assumption above - thats is exactly what I pictured to have happened.... and its also exatcly what I question.

What do you personally do? Not kill? Take self analysis? Or both? I am not trying to insult you. I myself did not kill more than 5 players (in self defence) despite playing the mod for two years now. But that is not out of morale... it's just that is is not me, I don't have fun at it (at ruining another players game - if I just wanted to fight I could play games like BF...). I just didn't want to bring that into the discussion, as - in my opinion - it goes over the top to talk about fighting in games. Its not realistic and would make games boring, if there was no more competition. Here is the place where a player can make his own choice. Not at rape and / or torture. Just my personal opinion, not more, not less.

Indeed - as is torture....

Indeed - and thats what games like DayZ lack!

Did you even bother to read my posts? Everyone would have to decide where to draw his personal border he doesn't want to cross, be it in his playstyle or be it in his decision to buy or not to buy a game. In addition - don't you see a difference between a competition with more or less equal chances and killing or abusing someone who is defenceless, even in a game?

@Tobias Winfro: You probably got something down the wrong pipe. I myself will not buy the game, because EVEN the opportunity to torture other players like it is possible now, is something I don't want to have in a game I support by buying it - not to mention all the other things I listed. BUT - and its a big BUT - what you write in your last sentence does proof your own moral at least questionable. We live in a world of free expression. And what I did was by no means 'suggest' to have that built in, or even promote such things in any way - I think anyone who can read could take that information from what I wrote, and how I wrote it. Its just an atrocity that does happen in real life, as you have stated, and so - for the sake of an ill going realism - could be built in. Honestly, I have as much sympathy for a raped women or a tortured, helpless prisoner, as I have for an abused child - I don't differentiate as much as you seem to do. For me none of the above is acceptable (not even in a game) - and wanting someone to punch in the face is neither. Violence, my friend, does start in our daily life, for example by punching someone in the face for something he says.... --------------------------------------------------------------- @BigMike, @Kaboki, @Sovetsky First - of course I anticipated the 'not real' argument to come, as stated in my first post. But think about this: DayZ is game, that is capable of creating real emotions in a player, like guilt for having killed someone and others. IS it SO unreal? Of course, nobody will get physically hurt, but I doubt that we really are so cool and distanced, as the conciousness about all that being just pixels might suggest. Also one you did mention, that scenes like that do tell facts about the people who commit such atrocities - how can that be true, if it's all so unreal? If there is NO connection between an avatars actions and the players character? Also, most of you DO in fact draw a line, where ever it might be located. Why do you think so, if it's just pixels? I think, if it REALLY was just pixels, no emotions included, no connection to reality, there would be no need for a limit. That lets me suppose that it is in fact NOT just pixels. Also - why would you bother getting tortured, preferring to die by logging out, if it was just Pixels - just the loss of a few minutes of time? I doubt it. About the Movies: Thats a comparison which does often come up - but theres a difference. In almost any movie (as well as in story driven computer games), atrocities appear within an ethical context. Please note that I wrote 'almost' - there might be a few exceptions, I am aware of that, but for the vast majority its true what I say. Such atrocities are almost every time being committed by evil persons, or mentally ill persons, and quite often they get their 'deserved' punishment. In all those cases that context is implemented in the media itself. So theres mostly a message connected to the images shown. And that is the difference to DayZ, where the story is written by the players, and where 'evil' characters easily can get away. --------------------------------------------------------------- What you, Sovetsky, write about anti censorship is a huge topic to touch. I would not want to start a discussion about that, just so much: I come from Germany, a country where 75 years ago some the most disgusting atrocities ever have been committed, not just, but also in the name of science. So you might be able to empathize that I see that matter from different side. At least the discussion about control and morale may not stop ever, not in science, not in the media and not in politics. Seen, that we started with a somewhat trivial videogame we have come to quite important and serious topics. Maybe afterall its not that trivial asking the question what should be allowed to do in a game, and what not...

@Bororm: I agree to many things. Look at THIS video - honestly - I find that quite graphic (scene at around 10 minues). I largely agree weith the rest of your post. But thats not so much about game design, more about practical handling of the situation once you are in it. Honestly I find situations like those in the linked video much sader for the active parts than for the victim. As a victim, you die, like so often in DayZ, and as you mentioned, there are several ways to handle such a situation. For the torturers its like they revealed a side of their personality which doesn't seem to be appealing... But thanks for answering my question - that you would see a limit when it comes to rape (What guys simulate now is almost everytime just fooling around with buddies and friends, and so just funny).

@tiadashi, @MLG420blazeit Let me put my question clearer, for you and any future readers: What would have to be implemented in the game (in respect of what I wrote in my first post), that YOU would not want to buy it for ethical reasons. Or would you not have ethical concerns at all?