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Oh come on, it's a game mechanic, it shouldn't be 100% precise. Though they should be sane and interesting to use. I'd say that defibs should be used to stabilize players that went critical (blood to 0, passed out) - that's not dead. So this shoud give his allies several extra minutes to apply bandages, Bloodbags and EPI.

This?

DISCLAIMER 1 - Don't go full retard! Read the whole post before posting! Interlude: So we know that Rocket realizes that progression through equipment has it's faults and lack of ceratin aspects requires implementation of skills of some sorts. Thus it's only a matter of time we'll see such system ingame. Though, as idea is still pretty raw, we are free to propose how we'd like to see such system. This topic had been brought up many times before with emphasis on different aspects from skill trees to classes. I'd like to make a breakdown of this mechanic and go all the way from problem to solution. Addendum 1 - Why in my opinion solely action-based method (do X action Y times to raise certain skill) is not a good solution: Existing issues We have to look into problems we have before adding something new. Thus, here is the set of issues such system should fix: Everyone is the same - in bad meaning. Everyone have the same chances for survival from the start, yeah. But in the long run, each player you encounter is just a meatball with some gear strapped on. And every time you play you can only vary your gear in a very small set of options: sniper\hunting rifles or automatic weaponry. Everything else just taken in regards of quality: backpacks, outfit, compas->map->gps, etc.. Endgame is dead end (boredom) - while sometimes progression through equipment is good, it has it's own problems. For example low life value: who cares if you die, if you can go from hobo to SpecOps in mere seconds (especially if you have a team and a car)? Second point: if you have your gear - you have nothing really good to do. You get bored and this stems into the next issue. Wretched player interactions - two previous issues form the last one. As everyone is the same, bored and have nothing to offer to one another, (except for their own gear) people sink into killing eachother. Some of them will stay that way no matter what, but many others would do something else if they could. Also - anything you can do, you can do on your own, so why bother working with anyone else? Things we should keep in mind It is not a simple task adding skills into such unique game as DayZ. It shouldn't break the feel of the game, so the system should suit the following requirements: It should not constrain you into the way you want to play - this has to be the main feature. In many MMORPGs for every class there is only one skillset that works, so players have to browse the forums and wikias, looking for the correct build, which is wrong. Instead, players should explore their own ways to play the game, . It should be simple and intuitive to use - the system should run in the background mostly so you can tweak it only when you feel like it. Any changes you do should let you shape your character so it suits your playstyle like a glove. Adjusting skills should make characters fit the roles the players choose instead of making them outright stronger - I assume that there is a decent amount of players here that wouldn't like to bother with skills at all. Thus, skill system has to let those players do all the basic actions without being totally outclassed by those who actually specialize into something. (added)Players should become more distinctive - We need more player to player interacions. Today the only thing you can't do on your own is a blood transfusion. If the skill system will be implemented correctly, players with different skill sets will actually be more interseted to socialize (trade, help. ... slavery) The system itself -Interface- DISCLAIMER 2 - interface and tweaking are proposed for convenience. Neither I, nor you like the idea of punching trees to get more strengh. This is the easiest way to keep the system both subtle and convenient. Don't like the menu's? Don't look at them and just perform actions. More info in the -Progression- paragraph. The whole system should fit in one window. Design-wise it can look like a page in a diary with scribbles on the sides that depend on the skills you have. It consists of two pie charts: Physical stats and Skills. Physical stats affect the way you play while scavenging\fighting. Want to be a one-man-army with an LMG, and all ammo\supplies needed? You can have it. Want to be a scout or a sneaky scavenger? You can tweak your character that way too. Haven't made up your mind or just not into edititng stats? Leave them as they are - you're not loosing anything. Physical stats pie chart has 3 dynamic sectors which are quite trivial: Endurance - defines your stamina while running long distances, how much you can carry without getting exhausted, and can define ability to withstand pain Dexterity - defines your dash distance, ability to land without taking damage or breaking legs, can increase crouch speed or just lower the noise you create. Strengh - defines your melee combat abilities, ability to run uphill, and may define flinging from recoil Skills affect all other actions which you may perform. Which? Depends on the mechanics SA will give us. Let's name which are quite obvious: Medical - abilities for diagnosis and performing medical operations from bandaging to surgery. Crafting and repairs - creating mostly mechanical items and fixing them, maintaining firearms and gadgets (if those are not destroyed completely). Mechanics and engineering - repairing and upgrading vehicles, setting barricades and building (in future). Survival and leatherwork - setting traps, making campfires, skinning and butching corpses, making bags and clothes. Cooking and brewing - cooking food (and remedies made of herbs) and making certain beverages (which can be used to deal with shock and pain, can clean wounds, and help recover). -Progression and influence on gameplay- DISCLAIMER 3 - any numbers and rates are subject for tweaking during the testing phase. Focus on the mechanic, not the numbers. Progression As I said, progression should mostly run in the background. Let's say each pie chart can hold only 100 points. So, you start with 10 points in each physical stat and 3 points in every skill. They grow slowly over time, so after approximately 5 days (several hours each) of playing (if you didn't tweak anything) you'll have both pie charts full with 33 points in every stat and 20 points in every skill. If you perform certain actions the respective skill will grow a bit faster, but nothing more. Thus, you neither can, nor have to farm your skills like in certain skill-dependant games we know (Elder Scrolls). It would be nice if you could boost your learning by using books if you spend your time at the campfire for example - that would work if crafting or cooking would actually take time. Influence on gameplay I'm not a fan of unlockable abilities so I see it this way: Let's observe influence of the medic skill on the gameplay with it's progression. (Once again. points here are not actual "levels" - you just start noticing the difference when your skills grow) At skill level 3 you are able to bandage yourself, but if the wound was serious you might start bleeding again or get an infection. You have no idea what most symptoms mean, what different medications do (painkillers and morphine are an exclusion) and performing any complex task (blood transfusion or bone setting) is a way for a disaster. At skill level 20 any complex actions are still very risky to perform. Though, you already know what certain drugs do and can recognize some diseases, but the chances of a mistake are high. So, unless something critical happens, you can deal with it. At skill level 50 you can perform all spectrum of actions, with considerable risk, though you are most likely to fix any mistakes you do. You can make a mistake, but you can trust your own diagnoses as they are most likely true. At this point you can call yourself a specialist. At skill level 70 you can do anything, being almost 100% sure it will work flawlessly. You can diagnoze anything precisely, knowing exactly what to use. Your actions spend less resources (cautery, bandages, etc) and let your patient recover faster (so bandaging returns some health, blood transfusions happen faster and yeld more blood, bones heal faster, etc..). As you can see, even having the basic skills lets you perform all standart actions. This way you can let the skills grow by themself and just notice how things are getting better. So, the whole system should let you either: 1. Master one skill (around 70) and everything else is just at basics, so you get everything else from others. 2. Proficient at two skills (around 45-50) for example medic+brewer benefiting from both, everything else being basic. 3. Jack of all trades in any combination you like. Addendum 2 - how player to player interactions should look like with this system onboard: -Control and tweaking- So you know what you need, eh? Setting up should be easy as well: You define the values you want for your stats and skills to be and let them grow to those levels. Death in this game is permanent, so distributing points every time you die would cause tons of frustration, so this way you can set those values once and forget about editing. Changed your mind? Easy as that - you just change the max values of the skills your need to the boundries you want and they start to transform slowly, rules described in the "progression" part are applied. (this represents the process of aquiring new skills and partially forgetting old ones as you don't use them any more) Benefits from the system Each player is unique - you can play as you want while skills\stats will complement your mobility and actions preferences. Making you anything from packmule to stealthy assasin. Playes have a lot to offer to echother - From now on when you see someone in the distance your first question will be "what can this guy do for me?" and not "what can I loot off of him?". There will be nothing dumber than shooting a skilled crafter or survivalist. System doesn't overburden the players - As you clearly see, the whole system can run completely in the background while you play. In conclusion: I hope we'll see such system in game. I'm looking forward to your comments and suggestions. If you like this concept - please, relay it to the devs by the means you have, be it twitter, reddit, or PM's. P.S. Please don't push on "but teh zombahs will be fixed and will fix everything" argument. Yes they will be fixed. But if the only thing a player can't do on his own is a blood transfusion - we're not even a step away from fixing the deathmatch issue.

Updated the OP (look for "addendum" and "added" red signs)

There is also another topic with slightly different approach: [For SA] Player diversity and customization through skills

Oh... my... god... This is a friggin masterpiece! So you took all the right advises while keeping your style. The result is amazing! It definately needs some explaination, but it looks amazing! Heh, I see now a belt can be an item too. I assume those lines and little squares are meant to be slots, occupied by the bulk of the objects (like hatchet hanging from the belt), but how do these slots work on the shirt and shoes? Also, I see a tac vest on the "checking body" screenshot. Where is the tac vest slot for the player? I'd actually go with 3 layers - body vear (shits\t-shirts,"second skin"), hoodies\coats\jackets for second layer, utility gear (tac vests, armor, bandoliers, maybe mountaineer gear) for the third level. I'm so hoping it will make into the game in such form!

Will the clothes have different slot layouts (i.e. several 2-slot pouches on a jacket instead of just 8 slots defined) as it was mentioned before, or will it be just slot count (clothes vary only in amount of slots, no layout)?

I made an elaborate thread on the topic of melee combat. Feel free to bring it back up to the first page.

I'm a little bit late, but... Oh look! Another OP just went full retard! I lost the count how many times people raised this topic. EVERYONE AND THEIR DOG are aware that semi-auto 50 cals are a bit too powerful now yet require no skill to use. WE KNOW, RIGHT? And in every topic there was always a post about making them realistic. What new and unknown did you want to discover by creating this thread? No, seriously. And about the choppers - it was already said that using them will be much harder in the SA. Let alone it wasn't such a huge advantage actually - high chances to crash, requirements for refuel, and a giant fucking dinner bell for bandits, survivors, noobs and zombies alike. It wasn't even easy to shoot someone using the mounted guns (from any safe distance). The only advantage was speed which could help you to cross the the map quickly and that's all. Yet, you keep bitching about those. DayZ community, I am disappoint.

Inbefore segways....

You are in the wrong neighbourhood, kiddo...

It's not the best. It splits the community. Also, most people use third person due to movement clumsiness ArmA 2 sports, head bob that many players are not clever enough to tweak and yeah, exploiters that like to lay on the roof and scan for players without exposing themselves. SA can fix the first two issues, bringing the first two groups back to first person. What do we have left? Nay-sayers stuck in the old ways and exploiters. And to me exploits break immersion and the game itself MUCH more than such miniscule things like narrower FOV (also, there is a ton of games with no TPV and you didn't complan, did you?) or "fog of war"\shading\bluring in third person (which is immersion breaker itself).

Actually it will. People will focus on skills they prefer to use. It doesn't mean they are absolutely self-sufficient with the ones they chose. Let's say you are dedicated medic - you are mastering medical skills and are quite profecient at cooking\brewing. And then you meet another player. As it turns out he's low on blood and has a broken leg in a splint. He also tells you that he's a skilled handcrafter\survivalist. He couldn't fix himself properly so in return for your help he crafts you a cape out of the wolf hide you gave him and fixes broken NV goggles you were already going to throw away.' See? Meeting a player with another set of skills lets you do the things you wouldn't be able to do on your own. Even if you meet someone and it turns out your skills are the same, you are less likely to shoot from that point unless you are a total asshole. It doesn't let people exploit the system, it gives them sort of control over system while they are not using the UI. Also, performing actions should boost the learning rates a bit as it seems logical. The reason for the UI is to let players have the skills they want without spamming some action to get the skill up. Let's say your wet dream about action-based skill growth system comes true. You want to be a skilled technician engineer? Okay, you need to collect 500 tyres and shoot->replace->shoot->replace them on a car to get your skill up. Oh wait! But your medic skill is draining the points you need all the time because you're bandaging yourself frequently! That is the reality of action-based skill system with no UI. Is it subtle? No, because you spend time farming skills instead of scavenging, exploring or fighting. Is it entertaining? No. And what is bad about EVE system since you mentioned it? Boosing skills is crucial for other MMOs (like WOW), but in DayZ YOU should define the skills you want to use, not the other way around.

Seems like you fail to understand the meaning of the word "convenient". Time for a grammar lesson. Let's look at DayZ. Survival in DayZ must be difficult - difficult is good, because players like challenges. Being able to specialize only in a couple of skills instead of being a genious in every way makes the game more difficult, which is good. Inventory in Dayzmod is simple (not difficult) yet inconvenient - which is bad (because no one likes to mess with those bars). That's why dev team decided to rework it for the SA and make it convenient, which is therefore good. Get it now? Having a UI for the skills doesn't make the game easier. Instead it makes it convenient to control. Didn't get it again. As I said in the OP, we should let players concentrate on the game itself instead of browsing the forums for the "imba" build that lets you beat anyone. As I said - if you are against controlling your skills, you can let them grow on their own. What I find bad is micromanaging your actions (do x amount of actions and raise your skill) instead of playing the game the way you like. Well, DUUH! No one gives a flippingshit about anyone else because right now you can do EVERYTHING on your own. Blood transfusion? Easy! Engine change? I got it, boss! Changing main rotor on the helicopter you can't even fly properly? Piece of cake! It will actually help solo-to-solo interactions as instead of shooting eachother they'll start from figuring out what other player can. How do they handle it from that point is up to them. On a side note: find a girlfriend or something, you seem stressed. There are two problems. Minigames are fun but they will require a lot of content to be made by devs. Also, they become boring progressively. Tell me, was it fun hacking (for the 456th time) in Mass Effect after 7 hours of playing? No it wasn't. They have to be either dynamic or various to be interesting - developing these won't be easy. Second and the ultimate problem: involving real world knowledge means, that after some time spent playing, everyone will be able to to perform any action on their own. Thus destroying the purpose of specialization and skills themselves.

Good idea. It might fit well with this one.

Thanks alot. Glad to hear that work was not in vain! But you see? That's the main problem! The system has to be both subtle AND convenient. And yet I see no way to achieve it without some sort of UI. The one I propose is as simple and subtle as possible - you set it up and forget about it. If you throw it away completely and rely only on actions you perform, you will sink in micromanaging your actions - I doubt you want to shoot and change 500 tires to become a skilled techinician. And actually keep changing them from time to time to maintain the skill... If there IS a way to have a working skill sytem that has no UI at all and doesn't involve action spamming\farming, I will be glad to hear it. Sadly, no. I can't recall wether it was an interview or a post, but he actually said "we need a skill system of sorts". If you read the OP completely, you'll see that this system is as subtle as possible.

That's why you shouldn't have posted in the first place. What I am proposing is exactly AGAINST "ding, you have a level! ability unlocked". Please actually READ the whole post, it actually helps considering all the time I spent making it look readable. Read the whole post, or go away. EDIT: Added BIG RED DISCLAIMERS in case someone else decides to point out things already covered by the OP.

Glad you've asked! I was thinking about it myself. As you see, the rates and values are subject to tweaking. So my idea was that you either: 1. Master one skill (around 70) and everything else is just at basics, so you can support yourself and get everything else from others. 2. Proficient at two skills (around 45-50) for example medic+brewer, benefiting from both, everything else being basic. 3. Jack of all trades in any combination you like. So yeah, the actual idea was to make players pretty effective combining two focused skills (or mastering one) and manage some basic actions with the rest.

Well I actually saw myself that he said we need some sort of skills to patch the progression. Can you tell me where\when did he say he changed his mind?

I had this huge post in another thread, but I'd like to receive some feedback for this idea. Please read the whole post before posting anything. So you're in some urban area and suddenly you bump into someone else face to face - be it a zombie or a player. Most of the time people start shooting\swinging their axe at the enemy while waltzing around. I bet there should be an option to get into struggle with them to either shove them out of your way or disable them for a short period of time to get away or, if you are totally hostile - incapacitate them completely. It is much better than clicking franticly with a melee weapon or trying to switch to melee while running against eachother forehead to forehead. As it was proposed before, it can be done in this fashion: This can work for Alpha, but it will become boring soon enogh like it happened to hacking in Mass Effect 1. How I see this, I'll try to keep it simple: As soon as you are at point blank you hold a specific key for about a second and get into struggle with another person. Holding one-handed weapon or unarmed: The person initiating the struggle effectively grabs the opponent with one hand (leaving another for action). Holding two-handed weapon: you'll just punt your opponet, so he gets pushed back and can even trip sometimes (similar to L4D "shove off" action) - you're interested at keeping distance anyway. Your struggle can be broken by third person - this will help if you're strangled by a zombie, or you have an ally close to you. While you hold against eachother you can perform different moves. Each of them take time to perform, defined by animation, so you can't just spam them. types of moves (with possible keymap in gaps): Offensive disarm - attempt to make opponent drop his weapon (Shift) damage - try to weaken your opponent (Left click) drop - attempt to take your opponent to the ground (spacebar) Defensive block - self-explainationary (Rclick + Lclick) break out - get out the struggle state (Rclick + Spacebar) dodge - dodge incoming attack (Rclick+Shift) Used this system as it worked pretty well in assasin's creed and was pretty intuitive. Spacebar as a jump key you assingned is used for moves performed (mostly) by legs, block and damage are performed by right hand (Left click in mostly any game), shift for cunning moves or performed by offhand. Right mouse button lets you perform defensive moves and lets you perform offensive while released. _________________________________________________________________ Here comes the difficult part. How to do this? Turn-based or real time? I vote for real time: You guess incoming enemy action by his movement and and decide what you do in return - it has to be tested out though. How successfull your and his action would be are defined by numerous factors such as: health condition (health, fatigue, adrenaline), weight on the character (huge backpack makes you clumsy) equipped weapon(see below) (new stat "ergonomix" can be applied) equipped clothing\armor - based on protection and weight (new stat "ergonomix" can be applied) Skills (it is confirmed we'll have skills, so more experienced survivalist should have upper hand) Also: struggling drains your stamina very fast, so the more you struggle - your fatigue will grow expotentially Effect of the weapon equipped: The one initiating has upper hand (with first move that is). One-handed melee weapon or sidearm (as improvised blunt weapon) gives advantage at attacking moves. Bare-handed gives advantage at dodging and disarming. Two-handed melee and big firearms (shotguns and rifles) give advantage at defensive moves. Upon successful drop action: Both go to the ground, the one who managed to drop appears ontop of his opponent. For the one ontop drop changes to finishing move which has a chance to either do massive damage resulting in fracture or to knock your opponent out performing break out has 95% chance to work. all moves have slightly increased chance for success For the one below break out changes to switch sides, if you manage to do this you become the one ontop - this way you can turn the tides in your favor, even if the things went desperate Initiating struggle from behind: Holding one-handed weapon or unarmed: 70% chance to drop your opponent to the ground and appear ontop of him Holding two-handed weapon: 100% chance to knock your opponent to the ground (hell, he'd be dead -anyway- if you got behind him at point blank. Benefits: This sytem allows us to have intense cinematic assaults as every single one will be different from another. Easy to use, intuitive system. Players define the duration of the fight themselves - if they spot some mutual threat they can both start pressing Break to get out of struggle. Incapacitation over killing. You can reason your opponent while you struggle, drop him to the ground and run - you decide Ambushing becomes even more intersting Getting strangled by a zombie will be fun as well In conclusion: It is somewhat indepth system I tried to keep simple for the players. It might result in some pretty spectacular assaults especially if playes will keep swearing at eachother over comms while they are struggling and zombies are getting closer. I'd like to hear your thoughts and ideas. I doubt that we'll see it at the release, but it would be a nice game mechanic to experience.

You might like this thread.

Removing humanity until fixed and makarov on spawn was a good decision made by Rocket. No friggin clue why these things should be brought back. If you can't survive your first 30 min without a pistol, you'll hardly do it with one. Give a melee weapon to the starting kit instead if you want a weapon in the starting kit THAT much.

So, why does everyone shoot eachother? There is almost nothing anyone can't get from another without killing them (oh look, triple negative). So if you see a person, anything you can possibly want from him is his gear, and what is better opportunity to do it? Yeah. kill him. It's that easy. The only exception is blood transfusion, but if you're experienced enough, you can just use food and depend on NO ONE, EVER. So right to the topic. Scavenging is easy right now. Zombies are no threat, loot is in known locations and spawns in bunches. Scavenging can be easily turned into the reason to team up. How? Add some locations that are impossible to reach on your own, though yeld better loot (quantity\quality). here are some types: Open sesame. Elevated areas, fenced off areas, ledges, debris which you can only climb only when lifted by someone else. Also, entrances that have to be kept open by someone else (who thus have to stay outside or vise-versa) - heavy hatches, gates, bent metal sections. This might lead to some interesting scenarios. Strengh in unity. Obstacles that can be surpassed with set amount of people. For example seesaw-like contraption that requires some weight to get to some elegated ground, or really huge hangar door, or car that has to be flipped. For whom the bell tolls. Can be an addition for previous two. An obstacle that will certainly alert other players and zombies in the area and make them converge on the source. So while one is scavenging, the other will have to cover him. Examples are: creeky doors or car trunks, tripflares at military camps. Security alarms in shops and offices and on certain cars, crows that swoosh in the air if alerted. The skill system won't come very soon I guess, so we need something to make people team up. This will make the world more interactive and bolster teamplay. "Go, I'll hold them off!" drama ensues. I'm looking forward to your own types and ideas in regards of such locations or mechanics. Relay it to Reddit and twitter if you like. I demand no credit if it reaches the dev team and finds it's place in the SA.

Only beans? No more comments\ideas?