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I'm not attempting to argue against it, I'm telling you your assumption that this is a reason why players dislike bandit tags is false. People don't like them because its broke and attempts to remove or nullify the dynamic nature of interactions, the point you recagnize when you say "Your" system takes care of how its broke.... Your system and the real system are two different things, so its rather pointless to argue merits of a system that doesn't exhist.... And I'm sure a system can distinguish between a reasonable and non reasonable threat... Here's some scenarios... So a player is trolling zombies to you, but they have their gun out so they aren't recently armed you shoot them you get a murder. A survivor is following another group of survivors he is armed/unarmed whatever, the group is going back to their base he won't stop after warnings so they shoot him a murder.... An unarmed survivor gets in your car/chopper you can't shoot them for fear of a murder?? I know you hate bandits, err killers, err groups that kill people outside their group. Everyone should help every total random stranger they meet, waste their resources just beacuse its the right thing to do because your system says so.... The current system tracks murders as killing anyone that is not a bandit, so you should add seperating kililng someone who is unarmed against sumone who is armed to your list of improvements. But that would mean anyone armed would be open for murder and that would defeat the purpose of putting signs on some people. Also I like that elaborate justifications don't matter, but a different skin somehow does. So player A gets the skin unjustly but because he has the skin player B is free to PVP player A at their whim free of penalties and without justification. But survivors aren't up for being robbed so instead are murdered, maybe bandits will start shooting, looting, healing but that sounds like a waste of resources. Your justification shows that you only wish to punish people that play in a way you don't like, ie PVP people that do not wish to PVP at that time. Your fine with PVP on your own grounds, ie hunting bandits and shooting them unawares but if you are a victim of pvp without warning or what you see as reason then you cry about it. Again *Your system* so it really has no bearing The art of trolling isn't leaving someone for dead, you shoot them in the leg then bring the horde to them so you know they die, or shooting them in the leg when Z's are already after them. Again with unarmed, you should really add that to your system or tell rocket to add it to the revamped skin system. I guess acknowledging that armed people are always a threat kind of ruins your black and white take on this though so I can see why you qualify it. Also see arbitrary, 2 (of power or a ruling body) Unrestrained and autocratic in the use of authority I believe shooting someone after giving them orders and they don't comply would be a murder in your system as you specified, or if you know how to avoid this via code please let me know because its basically what breaks the bandit skin system. Your territory is exactly how far you are able to impose your will on other people, if I have an AS50 that could be up to a 1500m circle, if I am in a large group of players it could be a significant portion of the map I guess. If I don't want armed/unarmed people around us and they refuse to leave your system punishes me for freely exercising my right to defend myself and or territory. It doesn't matter why I don't want someone there, if I give them the option and they don't comply what other option is there? Be trolled give up my gear/loot?? This is why a skin system is broken and why everyone will end up as bandits.

@gorillahands4 I think you have a good point about the aggro in major areas, I think this mostly effected with glitchy Z's and messed up aggro mechanics though. The AI for Z's is so different from what ARMA is made to handle that I think alot of the issues come from that. The tension of meeting someone in a house/bar and both of you not shooting for fear of the horde would be sweet, but I imagine it would simply result in players gett'n out their hatchets and butchering each other...

I think a system that gives you Skill points based on the time you have been alive would be the least horrid as it can't be farmed, ie servers have iddle timers. So you get points for being in game surviving exactly what the point of the game is. This means people can't grind there way to epic levels faster than other players, but it does reward players for playing more and being successfull in game. Also skills should not be random or lock people out of actions just as OP stated, they simply make you better (mostly faster) at doing certain things. They can be a simple 0-100 scale and at spawn you select them via point buy so there is no advantage and everyone can make the character they want. The points available in point buy can be set to a timer so if you die over and over they are reduced and this reduces DM mentality and punishes new characters perportionally to older characters. Example skills Chopper pilot- at 0 you have no training of fligh so getting through the preflight check list/starting the chopper takes a long time. At 100% you instantly start the chopper. (This doesn't effect player skill, flying the chopper but does provide a reward) Hunter/Butcher- At 0 you have never butchered an animal you get 1 steak for 3 min spent butchering IG, at 100 you get all steaks at 2 min IG butchering. Weapon hadling- Specific to each gun with synergy for types (Hand gun, shotgun, assault rifle, sniper, etc) At 0 you've never fired the gun before and have no idea how it works, Reload time is 15seconds maybe no reload while moving, at 100 you reload in 2 seconds or whatever it is now. Could be incorporated with weapon wear, jamming, readying your weapon, even drift when not prone, etc. This should not have sway though as bullets should go where you shoot them. Synergry would give fewer points to weapons in same category as they are fairly similary, this could be diffrent ratios based on number of points so you get to 25% for all fast then slower to 50 etc. The focus should be on getting value out of specialization while still allowing player skill to shine through. Also health damage ect should never be associated with anything all characters are the same meat bags and all 7.62's do the same damage.

I like the gear being damaged or destroyed via combat, but I think adding additional meta data to items takes up to many resources than it would be worth when it could simply be accomplished via a skill system. I would also like to see the "tool belt" removed completely in a new inventory system. This would force players to better manage their gear and make more choices about what they carry. If gear could also be represented on characters in a better way, IE additional weapons aren't in pack but slung etc. Then it would help identify player types, why would a survivor carry around so many guns?? This would be much more authentic than bandit skins, I think many of the games issues can be managed through a good look at the "meat and potatoes" parts of the game like the inventory, models, and the addition of basic skills.

Without weapons rookies are getting used to the game 90% of the game is movement/stealth rather than fighting/shooting. Without a weapon the instant DM is reduced as newbs don't farm newbs for ammo/equipment and they are exposed to the skills they need to master. Firing your weapon is a last resort when it comes to PVE as it alerts others and initiates PVP, it also increases the PVE and then your just wasting resources. The frustration does come from something that you can improve on, your ability to stealth and or run from Z's, thats what people have been saying this whole thread. Managing aggro to conserve your resources and avoid other players is the largest part of the game outside of shooting other players. The UI complaints I get as I said but it is a disassociated issue.

Agree 100% people complain about KOS but also do it, I know there are a million reasons to KOS but if you don't want to operate like that then don't, live the way you want everyone else to, set the example.

Multiple selection will screw up your numbers based on the poll. Also sniping stary and chern are completely different one is killing people with good equipment and one is killing mostly noobs...

On the coast no, if they are trying to pick up gear where I am trying to pick up gear yes, if they get it I don't.....

There will always be people that love to shit on someone else and perma death allows a great oppertunity for this, so people will always be doing it and because perma death also makes people butt hurt their will always be people complaining that others only want to shit on their day when their actions could be for a multitude of reasons. So... This isn't changing with or without skills

Saying bandits are afraid of PVP or that I don't want skins because I want to avoid pvp isn't an argument, its your assumptions that cannot be proven, I say they are false so thats the end of it. You still haven't dealt with the fact that bandit skins and their implementation via murder counters is a broken system that will result with everyone becoming a bandit, or exploiting the system via blood bags to not be labled as one. I would be fine player chosen skins, with a system that showed if you looted a body, or even a bandit indicator but there is no way to track dynamic actions with an arbitrary system so its a pipe dream. The best bet is to introduce things that foster grouping or give experianced players things to do, skins are a waste of dev time because they will always be broken. Labeling play styles or actions as bandit or survivor has no bearing and only fits into each persons deffinition. If I shoot you for gear I'm a bandit, If I rob you at gun point I'm a bandit but I don't have my skin changed? What about if I shoot you in the leg and let the Z's Eat you, again no skin change. This is why any counter system is game breaking because it assigns arbitrary counts to dynamic player interactions. Am I a bandit because I shot you after numerous warnings to leave the area or put your gun down?? I wouldn't think so, but this system does.

I think a skill system can be developed that stays authentic to the rest of the dayz experiance, I realize that some players will not like this but I also think it is something that is necessary to establish both re-playability and continued growth. Developing a skill system will introduce specialization by players and this will breed co-dependancy, something that is needed to a degree IMO, I don't disagree with KOS but I do believe that the game is meant to be more than DM, to me the focus is surviving against the odds. Another aspect that skills introduce is mutual destruction, groups may choose to leave each other alone rather than have a war simply because they know it will not benefit them in the long run. You are 100% right that skills can widen the gap between the have's and have nots, and that people will attempt to keep other people down by killing them before they can develop skills. I am fine with both of these things, I think that both of them fit into the the theme of the game, your in competition with everyone for everything, so their success is at the cost of your own. I disagree that skills will make gap to wide, they can be implemented in a way that punishes both fresh spawns and established players but a skill hit for death would always be worse for an established player, death should suck. Skills can also be implemented in a way that does not effect player skill, I think that is what your mostly afraid of, instead of impacting were your bullet goes when you pull the trigger they could effect how fast you reload your gun, or how fast you become winded. Things that are not random and a player with skill can overcome, I don't think random chance should be included when the stakes are as high as they are.

Punishment for death can be made much more severe, currently you lose things, these things can be easily replaced hell you can even go back and loot your own corpse. If you lose things that can not be replaced except through time/play then the suck factor is greatly increased, that what a skill system would do. It would also allow players to specialize and thus increase their value beyond the items they carry and I think this is the only thing that would curb KOS. Even then though KOS will still exhist, especially when players are already in large groups they have no need of anyone else.

Your changing your argument, yes its not intuiative, mainly because everything you are doing is hacked into a standalone game that doesn't support it. Also Arma by itself has a steep learning curve and is not very usr friendly. These factors really don't matter for a game in this stage, as hopefully the inventory system that currently exists is going to be totally scrapped, I'm not saying stop complaining its Alpha, go ahead and complain but complain about the right things in the right places. If you want an "Easier" start complain about it but don't say you want it easier because of the poor interface or glitches, they are things that will not be connected later. If you want a better inventory or UI then make a post about that seperatley. The underlined section above is what upsets "hardcore" players. The game should not be balanced at all thus it will be exponentially more difficiult for under equiped or new players because it is set to be difficult for players that are experianced and fully equiped. There is no Noob area, training ground, or practice field. Your thrown to the wolves from the start and its sink or swim with everything at stake. Thats what makes the game exciting. And the game is designed to frustrate you, look at the player numbers, total uniques and alive characters/bandits. There are over 250 thousand players that rage quit and have never come back, (or they are hacked dup ID's) after 1.6 something you no longer lost food/water when logged out. So now there should be alive characters for every unique ID unless people quit when they are dead and never come back... Yes you used to die if you didn't play... Imagine that bitch fest. (This game has already been dumbed down and made easier) I bleed out the first time I was bleeding because I couldn't figure out how to bandage my wounds, it sucked, I watched in frustration as my character bleed out and I couldn't stop it. These scenes or experiances have their own value in and of themselves, not only will you learn from them but it lets you experiance what in this scenario thousands of other people did, their immenent doom. Have you been forced to jump off of a roof yet? I've had to do this multiple times sometimes its worked sometimes not, but it always feels authentic, I always get that cornered rat feeling where I know I'm dead if I don't act so I turn to desperation.

I dont see how people would be prevented from exploiting or grinding, I personally hate grinding and think if its an option people will take it and that defeats the purpose of even having skills included.

I think skills would be a better solution to introducing content that reduces KOS, they would also be a way of increasing the death penalty. If players know that other players will beg for their life and surrender rather than hopelessly fighting back or running (I'm assuming ALTF4 is patched out) then they will also be less inclined to KOS for gear. This would also discourage the DM mentality of spawn/kill/die rinse repeat, but players could of course still take these actions if they wanted to without a punishment. @Wolfstiked I don't think a "spread" type of system should be included as it introduces randomness and luck over skill even under ideal conditions. I think the shaking hands used for pain/exhaustion could be expanded on though via skills so they last a longer/shorter time, dependent on your skill. Endurance- 0-100% recover breath faster and extend time to go into winded mode

Look at the numbers the number of alive bandits compared to alive "survivors" does not fit into your scenario where bandits make up this huge section of the player base. What does this tell you, your "survivor" buddies are shooting you along with the bandits. I do also firmly believe that you could live indeffinetly as a survivor isolated in wilderness/small towns. I am not saying it would be fun, but it is much easier to shoot Z's as they shamble in through a door way than it is to hunt players. I also agree that you can't isolate yourself from PVP but you can vastly reduce your chances of running into other players by avoiding areas that other players frequent, again didn't say it was fun. Also why do you need good gear to play as a "survivor" if your goal is to survive you don't need pvp equipment that spawns at Military locations you should be fine with what you find in barns/civilian locations. Hate to quote myself but I've already told you why I hate bandit skins and it has nothing to with making people that don't want/like pvp harder to deal with. I don't know why you cling to the argument that bandits fear pvp from survivors, they are the ones initiating pvp with them or with other bandit groups already. The people who are double crossing are doing so for laughs or because they are noobs, experianced bandits/pvpers KOS and try to do so before the other side is aware of them. I think the fact that script kill/nuking takes out whole servers has something to do with the murder numbers, along with the trend to "thunderdome". Also just because total murders increase 50% doesn't really mean anything more than there were many more players playing, you have to look at how much of an increase there was per survival attempt and in the chart you pointed out as the source of your numbers it was a meezly 2%. In that same time span a 1/4 million more players came to the mod and apparently played alot of dayz, the rate that they murdered each other was not that large of an increase but because of the mass number of players the total counts rose sharply. Bandit skins have nothing to do with teaming up in game or stopping KOS, you won't be able to trust a "survivor" skinned player more than you can now for reasons that have already been expressed in the thread. Skins simply make it so that people who bitch about KOS now feel like they have people they can KOS.

You don't fix glitches by wasting development time adding in new content or code that serves as a band aid, you fix the glitches. Pretty much, more authenticity usualy means a more difficult and frustrating experiance, this of course is not always the case but that would be off topic and semantics. I do agree that we appear to have a fundemental difference of opinion when it comes to what should/should not be included to effect playability. I think things should be included to punish poor choices by the player (The stick) while you appear to think that things should be given to players to make life easier (the carrot). I'm not sure if you are reffering to a skill system or to what you precieve as "hardcore". Rocket has already said he is working on and has a skill system, so I don't really care what people think that don't like it, it needs to be included for authenticity and to introduce specialization and co-dependance. I also know that the majority of gamers are precieved to disdain harsh games or punishment, this is why perma death is not included in major titles, because it is thought that players will not accept it. DayZ seems fairly popular though so this may be a misconception and if some players don't like it there will be a host of other games riding DayZ's coat-tails that will likely offer a more casual experiance. WarZ has already stated that Perma death will not be a base feature. Also based on what Rocket has said in interviews I think he wants to attempt to stay true to his vision, if thats possible with a studio eager for profits footing the dev costs though we will see I guess. This is also why I hope people that don't appreciate DayZ for what it is soon move on to other titles, You can have everything else we just want this one... Thats your biggest mistake, never leave yourself without an exit. You could learn to avoid it, there are a very limited number of building models that are re-used in the map and you can respawn. This is a perfect example of why ,I and others, see your issues as you making poor survival decisions. I agree Z's do glitch in/around buildings, and this has been attempted to be fixed several times,. I don't really see how this would be effected by you having a weapon though, you can't hit them through the wall and would still have to avoid walls as you do if your unarmed. Also running away is a way of defending yourself from harm, as you stated your avoiding confrontation. Do you think you are going to chop your way through a horde unharmed? From my experiance this is not the case IG, and I think it would be in authentic if it were the case. This has been asked, 3 times in fact via a poll. https://spreadsheets.google.com/viewanalytics?formkey=dFYtUm1EdmRkcVRTelJremg2Y3MtakE6MQ#gid=0 https://spreadsheets.google.com/viewanalytics?formkey=dDBoc1pMTElvaXRBVWtYMDBpR2RaVEE6MQ#gid=0 https://spreadsheets.google.com/viewanalytics?formkey=dFpVdWltTGRHZVBSSkpIV1lQSmdWS2c6MQ#gid=0 It looks like you are in the minority when it comes to thinking the game is to difficult at spawn.

Does anyone ask themselves why melee weapons or melee combat itself is not present in RV engine? It's because it has been created to assist with training soldiers for combat, and you should never seek to engage in melee combat. Range is a huge tactical advantage, going into melee combat throws away your advantage and exposes you to injury. A silenced weapon coupled with range > knife to throat, there is less risk. The image of a SF soldier knifing a sentry is complete BS fabricated for movies. In DayZ people are desperate and unarmed thus improvised weapons or melee weapons should have a small place I think. They should be an afterthought though, as they would/should only be used until you find a gun. Just as a handgun is *really* only used to kill/defend until a rifle is aquired/functional. The second point to consider with melee combat in DayZ is that the infected feel no pain, emotion, and do not care about their own survival. This would greatly increase their effectiveness even unarmed against an opponent in hand to hand combat. You would basically have to kill one with one attack in the .5 seconds that they are within range before they reach you, not only are most weapons incapable of this, but virtually no one is trained in a martial art that is designed to do this. If this were 1200AD maybe but its not, so the training and weapons required to fight this way are non existent. If melee combat is outside the functionality of RV or whatever engine is used then it should be scrapped, it should be one of the last things on the priority list.

People need a reason to want to live, if Bandits could Rob people I think a higher percentage of them would, but survivors never stand for being robbed. This is because your player characters only value is in the stuff they accumulated, if they had more value to the player in themselves rather than just the gear player actions would be modified. If people fear death enough they will do what they can to preserve their life, and the best way to do this is a skill system, one that resets or goes negative after death. People will now beg for their life, sure some people will still shoot you, but if you can find berries/animals for the guy who spent all of his points in gun usage then he may keep you around long enough to escape. Or not, its still up to the players. There should be no balancing done to the game, here's the box you figure out the best strategy. If you want to have morals, be a white knight, or lone wolf great you can, but it doesn't need to balance out it cheapens the work being moral in an amorl world represents.

I like this system also, but I think that KO timer used currently should be used to simulate someone being unable to fight due to the fact they are in so much pain/trying to stuff their organs back in. This will lead to better drama in game as you try to save your team mates. Add in a legit skill system for medical treatment along with a system like this that KO's people and leaves them treatable for a short time but does kill if left unattended and we people would really look for doctors IG and value team mates that had medical training. IE only full heal from people with medical skill stop death from light injuries with no training.

Pretty sure I didn't resort to name calling, belittle your position, your level of skill in the game, or make a vain attempt at sarcasim to make your suggestion appear like some outlandish BDSM fantasy. I only gave you my opinion and called your suggestion what it is, something to make the game easier. No consessions, I'm not for anything that would make the game easier. I would be for spawning naked, I would be for a skill system that really punishes you for death and hampers new spawns thats what would make surviving that much greater. You do have a way to defend yourself, you can run or find a weapon. You should really read this other thread it's alot like this one, theres probably alot of threads like this.... http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/49017-my-rant-on-why-dayz-is-getting-worse/page__st__80 This

Are you saying no one should get a humanity gain from giving blood packs or that once you get the bandit skin your just stuck with it forever?? Do you really think you won't ever have to defend yourself or your group from other players?? I still plan on doing this, mainly from a bush so that you don't see me before I shoot. Also skins and lack of humanity drop for "survivors" shooting "bandits" really only leads "bandits" to always shoot to loot, why would I try and stick you up for gear if I know you have nothing to lose?? Also if people actually listened they wouldn't be shot as much but I think your white hats are to tight because you always try to shoot/run and then you just end up dead. If people playing as survivors were any good they wouldn't be QQ'n on the forums as much as they have been. Skin or no they will still be shot/sniped whenever they are seen, a bandit having a skin won't change the way they act, and most non bandits are so blind they don't even see their shooters. This is only a victory for gamification not for actually addressing any of the problems that cause KOS or DM play. Playing as a bandit is the easiest and fastest way to aquire all of the kit you need/want, it is not the easiest or safest way to play. Actively looking for other players or their loot leads to conflict and PVP is much more dangerous than PVE, look at the numbers its why there is a larger number of deaths for bandits compared to survivors when adjusted for total counts. Your statement is a blatent lie and reeks of butt hurt. Also if your so good at combat you would not act like there are 50/50 odds, you never fight straight up IRL and you don't in DayZ either. The only time you have a 50/50 is when you blindly bump into some sorry son of a bitch inside a building or something and you both try to get a shot off at the same time. This only happens when you are blind or alone, real combat runs a 90/10 split I would say, one side knows there is going to be fight the other side has their thumb in the ass while they wait to catch a bullet with their temple. Adding skins won't change this, people will continue to snipe/ambush and groups will continue killing people not in their group.

I'm sure you'll cry about it eventually... Because "morality" or "humanity" or whatever persists everyone becomes a bandit, I don't understand why people don't get this. A counter doesn't work its why it was taken out before. Make people bandits instantly for doing damage... why not just remove pvp? Or do you just want TDM not DM.... Also I suggest running people over in vehicles ghost riding vehicles off of cliffs/mountain sides Get the hero skin and troll survivors by shooting your gun at them until they kill you, turn them into bandits... Make sure you have a survivor beard to lure others into traps

Agree that Op's Idea has some flaws, but the people that try to legitimize ALTF4 because of hackers are retarded. You don't stop or base development on a glitch or lack of security that will be removed from stand alone. How to fix OP's Idea, because I do agree that any type of running by disconnecting should result in a very nasty penalty, at this stage of the mod death would probably be better than a timer because zombies would still despawn so people could still use altf4 to lose aggro, to stop it all together the below mechanic should work. Create a unique action with animation, could be default gear animation, that allows a player to log off. Make this animation/action last 15 to 30 seconds, if you log out without completing this action your character dies. From what Rocket has said his issue is that ARMA despawns models as soon as the player logs out, this is hard coded to free up resources. If he can't get around this in mod form I think he should implement the above, we know he can script kill people, and the knocout debuff seems to work so I think he could get the above system. This way no one can escape player or the Z's, the hackers will get taken care of eventually.

@BazBake Labeling play styles or actions as bandit or survivor has no bearing and only fits into each persons deffinition. If I shoot you for gear I'm a bandit, If I rob you at gun point I'm a bandit but I don't have my skin changed? What about if I shoot you in the leg and let the Z's Eat you, again no skin change. This is why any counter system is game breaking because it assigns arbitrary counts to dynamic player interactions. Am I a bandit because I shot you after numerous warnings to leave the area or put your gun down?? I wouldn't think so, but this system does. There should be no "balance" in this game it is canvas and the player base paints the picture. As you so scientifically put it this is a blatant nerf to "even" out encounter chances or improve a play styles viability. If survivors want to be white hat great, they need to understand that exposure to risk will decrease your life span the same way a bandit who wants to rob someone or go player hunting does. Mommy stops handing out cookies to good boys when they become men, no one rewards you for being moral day to day so why should there be a fake moral reward in DayZ? The righteous path is usually the loneliest for a reason, and because your all babies you'd rather have a Dev come in and assign roles than have your character live the way you think people should/would in this scenario. To "survive" in any situation you avoid risk and in DayZ that means avoiding other players, it doesn't matter how you think or wish things were, thats how it is and this won't change it. There are already a million ways to find a group to play with you don't need signs painted on people to make you feel safe. (They are lies anyway) But thats what all these cry baby casual players want, and apparently its what they are getting, the system is broke so it doesn't really matter but the fact Rocket is caving to all of you whiners is what really pisses me off. The whole appeal of this game is that it is not dumbed down, nothing is given to you, and everything is against you. Thats what makes surviving great what would normally be a minor accomplishment in a different game is a huge accomplishment in DayZ and every crybaby suggestion takes another step toward ruining that experiance. Why do you think no other games that feature character persistance also feature perma death, because people can't handle it. If this goes in I encourage all players that appreciate DayZ for what it is to do the following, 1.Shoot players in the leg and bring the horde to them 2.Shoot and heal your friends so that you never get a bandit skin, then approach other players that are no longer afraid of you and kill them when they least suspect. You know save them first, maybe shoot em in the leg and drag em around etc. 3. Assign a designated murderer to your team so that you can use him as bait and ensure that the rest of you don't change skins. 4. Get the hero skin by abusing blood bags then murder people wearing it 5. Be friendly wearing your bandit skin In the end everyone will become a bandit, but not because its better, simply because shooting other players can't be avoided.