xximrtwoixx

I think we need more of the stick than the carrot to motivate players. As long as people can escape in some way, altf4 or even play DM in the south rather than actually try to survive, then they will take un-authentic actions because they can escape the dayz experiance. This is the biggest design challenge IMO, how to force/entice people into having a horrible experiance that they have no control over, that is what Rocket is trying to do. Most players are giant pussies and get pissed when they can't be "rambo" and are forced to be joe blow average civilian zombie/bandit fodder. I agree that there needs to be more content, but I think it will take more of the stick than the carrot to get people going on any paths. All forms of escape must be removed, and then the neccessity to seek out or form a group needs to be increased, the necessity for that group to take in randoms also needs to be increased. In its current state there is no motiviation to play with randoms, its actually against your interest to risk days/weeks worth of work for 1-2 hours of co-operation.

Check out my post called gear on player models, alot of the same ideas, and some that adress issues with having containers for specific item types. I dont think inventory changes need to be limited to molle chest rigs, civilian modular rail packs can be heavily customized, and there are all those items that some how magically fit ob your belt, this neefs to be addressed in any new inventory system.

And related to thread how.... Who pays the bounty, I can only hope its an invinciple sherif with aim bot and a mini gun...

I don't see why everyone immediatley identifies point buy with skills, it is a mechanic that allows players to choose benefits at pre-determined and balanced rates. These benefits don't have to be skills, read the OP, they can be whatever you want. Clothes, weapons, food, starting locations, etc. etc. Group mechanics are being worked on, one of those that Rocket has mentioned is spawning with your group or at your base. A point buy system that allows a player to choose this option and other players to choose other options is IMO the only way to balance out the availability to choose to spawn with/near your group.I am for him including this ability because I really don't enjoy playing running simulator, and I'm not playing with randoms. I agree that persistent storage does have an effect on perma death, the crux is that without persistent storage and higher level activities that can be based on that persistence players will never "get off the beach" they will revert to DM because the task of building pretty much anything when you can die at any time is simply to daunting for people to handle. Much of the game play focuses on obtaining items, and if more of the group activities focus on building things this means gathering more things, thus persistence of items will never go away. I agree that much of the loot system and gear/inventory needs to be reworked but if persistence is in to stay then the only way to add value to a character's life would be through skills. Munchkins or min/maxers will always be there and people will always figure out the best way to exploit a system, the thing with point buy is that it can't really be exploited it is a transaction its the things that are bought that can be exploited. Skills and what should or shouldn't be included in a skill system is for a different thread, I'm advocating that a point buy system is what should be used for character generation because as long as there are no active or unique abilities its simply player choice as to what they use their limited currency to obtain first. Ie a flannel shirt 10 points or a winter jacket for 100. Both are in game lootables but one keeps you warmer. Also the min/max pvp builds will never fit into DayZ so I don't understand why people are afraid of them, one bullet does and hopefully will always do the same damage to a 1 minute character or a 30 day character. Persistent inventory is a legit part of the game, even if tents worked the way they were supposed to the gear would stay in them for 2 or 3 days after a characters death. Amassing gear/food is one of the main activities of the game, thats what scavenging is. AltF4, hopping, and even scripting have really only sped up the loot buble in the game, because items aren't finite they are just harder to find nothing is really rare. Everyone will eventually find something good, and good players/groups farm spawns so they end up with even more, the good things never get thrown away and pretty soon they are not rare at all. This has been sped up, but it would have gotten here eventually, there aren't enough sinks for loot in the system. I agree that this could be addressed with more sinks like damage to gear, wear on gear, dependent items like batteries, etc. But the economy is screwed so long as everythign is infinite and people can also store it. This is rather off topic I guess, but many things are connected.

I agree that skills should reset with death and I am for a skill system, and if you got SP's for shooting fine but is shooting your friend so you can practice bandaging him authentic to the actions someone would take? I think not, thus a learn as you go system needs to be very heavily regulated with checks to stop farming, and all of that takes resources and those resources could be used for other actions like more Z's or a wind system, etc. Because of this I prefer a simpler system that is not so open to exploitation. If you can fix the exploitation somehow great, I can't think of enough ways to combat it myself.

If people can min/max or take advantage of a system they will, if you don't want them to be able to do so it must be in the basic design of the feature/content otherwise its what people will do. The number of people doing it will slowly increase "becaues everyone else does it" and no one wants to be left behind or realize that sometimes you do operate at a disadvantage. So then everyone just farms everything, and you have WOW and the Devs add more farming features because its easy and keeps people occupied. You could impose limits on skill growth for a given time period but then people will just afk for a bit between farming sessions, and it would punish people for activley playing for extended periods. I also disagree that having "crappier" skills will have any effect on farming, those that would farm will farm, those that don't want skills or want to play DM in cherno won't do anything to gain skills.

IMO abilities through gear is easy mode, you complained about how easy the game can be, don't you agree that being able to have your friend pick up your mechanic ability off your dead body and give it back to you contributes to this?? Again though this isn't just about skills, you could buy whatever you like with points, all they are is a form of curency that allows you to purchase things. I understand what you mean about "right" build but that comes from your experiance with RPG type of games like D&D, in a game where there are no active abilities there really isn't an advantage to be had. Player one hates starting with out a weapon and plays alone, he uses his points on an axe/crobar, player two plays with his friends and hates walking back to them so he uses his points to spawn on them. Player 3 hates the DM that takes place in large cities so he uses his points to spawn in the country. This is simple stuff looking at the current/early game build. This could be vastly expanded though and I think thats where your missing things, your only looking at the current system with its current limitations. End game is easy now or non exhistant really, thats a product of lack of content and design flaws that stem from the fact that this was not meant to be played for an extended period or by so many people. As things are tightened up and content is added there will be more things that will require groups, thus spawning on your group or at your base location would really mean alot. For example the end goal for world structure has been stated to be EVE like single servers, can you imagine having to spawn in a random location when it would take days of playing time to walk to a given location? People would respawn over and over to get closer and that results in wasted server resources, it would be better to maximize play time and preserver resources to simply let players spawn on their group/base. Look at how people respawn now and like you said it really isn't that far of a walk, people are lazy and will exploit whatever they can. I think my suggestion for a point buy system would combat this by providing a benefit for other players that don't see any value in using a powerfull ability. To your underlined section: Your not going to be able to eliminate pre formed groups/clans or stop people from playing with the people they have played with before this would ruin imersion and your ability to work toward anything IG. You will also always have to deal with the fact that an hour or two of co-operation is never going to be worth a day or weeks worth of playtime, (Side note as long as gear is the only value of a character then this will be re-enforced) and because players can kill each other so easily trust will never be extended to randoms by established or successfull groups/players. The only random friendly encounters will be when players don't have anything to lose, and this won't ever change. I do agree that survival needs to become more of an "active" task, but again look at the mechanics in place now its simply to easy to survive. There is unlimited everything, food never spoils, and a single person can carry everything and thus posses all the skills needed to survive alone. It doesn't matter if your in a group or not, after the first few hours you've "Won" the game, and thats all that your quick play session would yield a few hour independent play sessions. IMO thats crap, I want to work toward something thats what persistence is about and what makes perma death great because you have the chance to actually lose stuff, well not your skills because those are on your tool belt.

Death should suck, and skills or anything that can not be taken by another player should not be tied to your account becaues that would negate perma death, all it would do is reset your location... WTF is the point of content if there is no value in it, we're advocating for having things included just to have them? That makes no sense, if there is no point or so little value that people don't care if they have them then why even have that content in the game?? IMO Skills should be important, if your not "skilled" with a gun can you reload it in seconds or take it apart and clean it?? If you don't know how to drive a stick shift car are you making a quick escape with the car? Can any average joe jump in a chopper and fly it? Skills and what your skilled in should have some measurable effects, the balance is that you get to pick what ones you have and there would be some way to improve/learn them while playing the game. There is a huge difference in saying someone should not have an advantage because they play more and saying in a heads up fight there should be no difference. If you did not have tangible benefits from playing longer/more what would be the point this would simply be another pure FPS shooter like COD/Battlefield, where gameplay is jump in jump out and nothing really persists. So long as skills do not effect the amount of health or damage dealt then they have no effect on player conflict, if your better at aiming or can set up an ambush then you win at PVP, I to want this preserved because its part what I think is so appealinga and refreshing about DayZ. I think skills can be implemented in such a way as to have little to no effect on direct combat, but can have huge effects on surviving and indirect combat like reloading, weapon maintenence, piloting vehicles, etc.

Like your idea but I think numbers need to be buffed up because items have dead space when stored in containers because they don't fit perfectly inside them. Other than that I agree that volume and weight/encumbrance need to be added to the inventory system. I and I'm sure others have posted similar ideas.

Thats what happens in a SHTF scenario, almost immediatly the majority of what makes us "advanced" disappears because it is to reliant on the plethora of subsystems that exist to support it. The building blocks that we have based technology on are instantly gone, and like any tower without a foundation it all comes crumbling to the ground. You talk about power and surgery when IMO these things would be years or lifetimes away for people in the first generation of a global apocalypse. How many people in an advanced society would know how to 1. Stalk and Kill large game, 2. Dress and butcher game, from here we have a subset of people, now remove the blocks we relay on in modern life. 3. Prepare meat in 90 degree heat to avoid spoilage 4. Store prepared meat to avoid spoilage/contamination. IMO these basics need to be modled into the game before expansive endevours like turning the power back on, survival isn't as easy as it is IG now and if it was implemented correctly it would create enough content to keep players very busy, and also provide an insentive to group up. Now you shoot game and cook it over a camp fire, you don't need anyone for this. If this was more "authentic" you would have a set amount of time to get meat cooked (more people needed to clean), cooked meat would have a set amount of time to spoil. You would be able to create smoke houses or drying sites where meat can be preparred in ways that ensure it keeps for longer periods. etc. None of this requires humanity it simply requries some knowledge and alot of work, thats what got people by for thousands of years before technology and thats what would get people through an apocalypse.

I am for skills being added to the game as the intrinsic value they add to a characters life is the only thing that will push players toward valuing their characters life outside of their gear. This will really will onlhy incrase the penalty for death but I am for that, I think it will make people take more authentic actions. Skills also represent an acceptable barrier to entry that can assist with curbing simple DM gameplay, if skills are required it will force players to invest a minimum amount of time into their character and as this time increases more and more players will be pushed away from simply throwing that investement away with simple DM game play. This won't really result in less KOS or Bandit activity, but it would push more people toward actually playing what DayZ is, an apocalypse survival sim not giant world DM. I think your system would result in skills being to freely disbursed, with the current loot systems these libraries would simply be farmed and entire groups would be max skilled within an hour. Also I think "classes" force people into roles and this limits immersion and the conection a player feels toward their character, if a player is able to choose everything about their character they are inherently going to be more invested in that character. This is what needs to be maximised IMO, the investment a player has with their character. Those people that bitch about skills bieng included are simply blind to the fact that skills/classes are already included via items, its just that every character has the ability to master all skills through aquisition of all items and then transfer them by transfering the items. This is simply easy mode of skills/classes as it bypasses the perma death, I would prefer to see intrinsic value added to each character. I would accept some items that buff skills or act as a replacement for skill, like an epi-pen could replace CPR skills. Or hemostatic powder could replace bandage skills, etc.

These systems don't just encourage grinding they encourage taking gamey actions to better assist with grinding. Thus players that *Play* the game but don't have additional time to grind repetative gamey actions or don't get enjoyment out of these non game related actions are punished. There is really no way around this thus I am not for any type of learn as you go system. Example: medical skills Shoot friend and then heal friend, over and over..... Running Find fence run against fence while afk... Repairing- Repair car body, damage car body repair car body.... This isn't playing the game IMO its doing stupid shit to take advantage of a system. If upgradeable skills are included IMO the only way you should get skill points is by the amount of time you've been alive, this is open to exploitation by people leaving their character IG while AFK but there can be idle timers that check if you moved locations, and if people put on auto run and go afk they are taking a big enough risk that I would find it acceptable.

IMO assembled weapons can only really fit into the largest packs and would be better located on pack rails or be slung over your shoulder. This is semantics at this point I guess though. I agree that you get to a point of diminishing returns in terms of the animations/skins that need to be created but I think this should be addressed through the special packs that are addressed in OP.

Nice feedback, do you have ideas on how to balance out the ability for players to spawn at their base or with their group? As noted in the OP point buy can be used for many other things outside of "skills/Perks" or traditional RPG like elements. I myself am not a fan of learn by doing or improve by doing skills as it simply becomes a game of farming skills via gamey actions. But as stated in OP this isn't really about skills and their possible inclusion in DayZ but rather a mechanic that can be used to balance out the ability for players to spawn at their base or with their group. I would prefer that skill points be earned for time alive as this rewards playtime and also bypasses a players ability to farm skills, their only action would be to leave their character IG while AFK and the drawbacks of such would make that acceptable IMO. IMO players would still game the system even if there was a counter as your play character would/could represent a significant amount of play time and certain skills especially in terms of groups would be more desirable so min/max would still be used. As stated in OP this goes beyond skills/perks though as it could be used to deliver equipment, manage your start location, or any other number of things players would attribute value to. Thus creating a benefit/draw back approach that would balance out selecting to spawn at your base or with your group.

Added to the ideas for standalone thread. http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/38742-suggestions-for-the-dayz-standalone-thinking-outside-of-the-limitations-of-an-arma-2-mod/page__st__280

Add all gear both inactive and active to the player model. - This is more work in the short term than a skin system but it would actually work as it would accuratley display a players playstyle because it would show what they are carrying with them. - This would also work to identify player killers as they would be outfitted in a different way that normal survivors. - This mechanic would not punish any playstyle, nor would it be possible to "game" or min/max the mechanic for any results. Here's the thread I made for this suggestion and my thoughts on how the inventory system should work. http://dayzmod.com/f...-player-models/ Add dynamic hard caps to loot spawn chance. - Use the possesion rate of an item to determine its spawn chance, this would introduce actual scarcity of items that players value and would add authenticity to the constant loot generation. As it would basically be only trash after a given point. - To conserver game resources have a nightly job determine possesion rates within the hive and set the loot chances, then when a server restarts the next day it will have the new numbers. Point Buy Character Creaton - Use a point system to purchase benefits, or skills if included at character generation. - Could be used to customize the way your character looks with if there is a clothing system - Balances out spawn on group dynamic - Thread with more details http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/82383-point-buy-character-creation/

You've read some medical papers and now your an expert on ballistics and bullet wounds? You've obviously never hunted or shot a living animal, have you ever even fired a gun? You also didn't refute that the materials you cite, or your proposed method of damage calculation do not consider bullets striking bone, you really didn't refute anything I said, you simply said I'm not an expert so your sticking your head in the sand. Your not an expert either so why should anyone consider anything you say? Try refuting what is actually being said against your proposal instead of tossing insults. Because setting up hitboxes for every scenario is not possible, (What I said in my previous post) there really isn't a difference between the damage done from a bullet striking a bone and the bullet missing the bone and hitting an artery. Either scenario results in more damage and a higher chance of lethality than a through and through that only damages tissue. I'm saying that because of this the space within your body that is taken up by a bone or an artery could be counted as space that increases lethality. Because of the above, and applying the same principle for organs I'm saying there is very limited relestate on the human body that would authentically represent the damage tables your advocating for. Rather than refute or respond to this you have chosen to attack semantics in wording and miss-represent what I'm saying. I hope I've clarified enough for you to actually respond... I'm derailing because I'm calling you out on the fact that you hate rifles (mainly snipers) and think that they are OP? My asertion is based on your own posts, there are a number of them attacking anything that fires high velocity rounds. Wound effects and damage numbers can not be seperated, to have any type of authentic system they must be considered at the same time, instant damage is the replacement for lasting effects or a more authentic medical system period. What I and others are disputing with your proposition is that you do not consider velocity in your damage table, thus rifle rounds do less damage than hand gun rounds, this is what is ridiculous. This is playing out like your other threads, Huge OP citing the same materials, 1 or 2 posts supporting OP and then insulting opposition directly or insulting their statements rather than refuting them. Then you abondon the thread and make a new one that is basically the same thread...

The issue IMO is the players, more players have come in that "play" dayz by simply gearing up then looking to DM. These are the same idiots that play COD w/out a mike, or sit around sniping in a sabotage/seek and destroy match and provide no value to their team. People can't handle investing the time/work into their characters just to have it all taken away by something completley outside their control. So instead they run scripts, or they revert to playing DM because it provides more instant gratification and limits their losses. This is an economic decision that players are making, they don't lose as much play time with a given death if they are simply DM'ing around the S coast. IMO its also the pussy version of playing DayZ, but becaues its a sandbox and because its really just a POC the same experiance can't be forced onto people, pussies can escape directly (AltF4) or indirrectly by simply never really playing the game. These people disregard many aspects of DayZ that others appreciate, the whole game goes from survival horror to one long round of one life DM. I have no issue with bandits, KOS, murder, etc. I do however think that DayZ is more than DM on some grand scale. I think OP's idea on fixing this is pretty much crap, IMO the only answer is to provide more content to fight boredom, and increase the time it takes to be DM ready. If its not easy to be equipped to kill, or for your character to have the skills needed to kill then fewer players will DM because they have already invested to much to get to the stage that they can DM. This won't fix KOS, or banditry but it would ensure that everyone is actually playing the same game, and thats what I think needs to happen.

I agree with most of what you said, and even recagnized that this aspect of the game was largley gone at this point. Before there was so much meta content, the game loot economy was F*d, and hackers were everywhere there was that feeling that you were trying to survive and it wasn't that easy to thrive. When people shot/robbed you didn't think they were out to pvp, you thought they were out for food/gear, and most of the time they actually were. I think fixing some of the base issues that lead to anti social behviour would go alot longer than trying to provide rewards to players that do act in a social manner. Add more content so people have things to do, let people win back areas, fix ghosting/altf4, go private hives or severs that only allow linked IG travel, etc. This would increase the community feel, and also provide things to do, and I'm sure once the hacks are gone and some of the other pending zombie games come out the non sim fans will leave for something else.

Your humanity score is a false currency that would reward one play style, why don't bandits earn "oppertunities" for having a negative humanity score?? Its because you want to reward or push people into doing something, IMO this should be avoided because it ruins the social experiment type of feel that I get playing the game. I recagnize that this feeling is largley absent now for several reasons, but it was there in the begining and I think once some fundemental flaws are fixed it will return. People do provide tangible rewards for co-operative or alltrusitic behaviour, I've been saved by someone and I left them with supplies, and many other players do also. It is true some will simply shoot you though, it depends and thats the risk you take when you expose yourself to another person/player that has the potential to do violence to you. Look at white list medics they get gear from other players, body guards, etc. Having an additional buff is BS IMO.

I would like to see this implemented for all packs not just a single duffel bag, but I would be for the inclusion of a new bag that was bigger but could only be carried in your hands. Great Idea You have my beans....

I think thriving should be distinguished from surviving some how IG. Example of what I mean, You can eat cold beans out of a can with your dirty fingers or You can eat cooked beans around a campfire with a fork Your camp could consist of you sleeping on the ground under a tree in freezing conditions Or Your camp could be a tent with a sleeping bag Or Your Camp could be an actual structure with a bed You can live in one pair of unwashed clothes in your own filth for days on end Or You can have a couple pairs of clothes and wash/shave/change so you resemble an actual person These are just examples but I hope it expresses what I mean. There is a difference between scratching by in an infested world with little hope of relief, (why I think you would find a lot of suicides in this type of scenario) and actually thriving with some semblance of satisfaction with your continued existence. I think being in "better" condition also offers positive effects you would not get tired as fast if your well rested, your less likely to get sick if your clean, one could say your even less likely to give in to pain/hardship if your in a better mental state. I think this could be implemented IG in various ways some more obtrusive than others. And I realize that some people value different things, or may say they would not be effected by X the same way others would be by Y. To combat this you could either remove things that do not have a simple measurable effect like well rested equals less tired, or clean equals less chance of being sick, or you could allow players to actually add values to what they want to have effects on their toon. Yes this would be meta'd as shit probably but it would be there so people couldn't really bitch about it. Example Complex- Player picks at creation what will make their character happy these actions give rewards to "Mental health/thriving" meter. Example Simple- Certain things give you better results than others, ie more blood/hunger, give buffs to exhaustion time or encumbrance weight. Thoughts?

Revised OP

Revised OP to include some additional thoughts on inventory/gear management.

I would prefer to see this implemented with actual skills in game, where people without skills will see the same generic model for all bullets and as their skill gets better they will see handgun/rifle, then large caliber/small, then true descriptions/images. Could do something similar with weapons with the generic models. Otherwise I agree that it would only get more visits to the wiki page, this could be combated with a shitload of different images used in the inventory though, and give the ability for the player to keep loose bullets in something like a can with no automatic grouping of like items.