GodOfGrain

Yea, title says all: How to I add these "spoilers" to hide content within a post? Thanks.

I have re-read your "Gedankenexperiment" and it is actually a great thought. Right now you have this display in DayZ which tells you: Engine orange, hull red etc. The concept could be: - You see tires are destroyed? Obvious... - Hull look badly damaged? As well - But what about the engine? If the game would never tell you which state the engine has, you'd have a closer look. Very simple, you just approach the car and press "Investigate engine". Animation and stuff, you have to wait a minute, then the result is displayed: - "I need x scrap metal to fix that" / "I need enginge parts to fix that" or: "I maybe able to fix that" -> New option available: Try to fix engine. That might be successfull after some time, or: "That doesn't work. I need X to fix that". In this scenario you'd get exp in step 1 for investigating, and in step 2 for trying to fix it without any items. Now lets think what that means: Yes, you are fixing a car, gain exp and this without drawback. BUT! Whenever I saw a car in DayZ I always had a look. Cars are great. If you see a car and have the random chance that you'll get it working right here and now, you would try. You have a real motivation for this action. You gain exp as well... but the real motivation comes from the real world, not a skill you grind. Good idea Mcentire :)

Drawback to "training repair skills": - High weight / size of repair parts prevents people of carrying repair parts with them just for the sake of using them should they find a vehicle. - Time effort: To finish a repair action takes between 5 mins (tire) to 10 mins (engine). Exp only granted if action is completly finished - Risk: During this action a soundfile is played (*repair sounds*) which can be heared by other players over some distance. - Risk #2: (Very small) chance of hurting yourself during during a repair.

Hmm I hear ya but I would give this thought ("progression over time played") a chance. Lets see, first of all we got rid of any influence on player behavior regarding training / grinding skills. The system rewards "time alive". That's very basic and actually according to the general aim of DayZ, which is surviving. It is further a dynamic instrument which allows to simulate negative effects and a recovering period quite nicely. Now you say: There is no drawback in "staying alive" for the sake of gaining exp. It would be an incentive for players to hide their character. - I think there is a drawback. Beside the fact that survival should be difficult, ergo the game should not allow players to sit around endlessly, there is a significant drawback in this behavior: It is fucking boring. In my first months of DayZ I was very motivated to stay alive. And the best course of action - which is obvious, even for a newb - is to do nothing, to hide at Pobeda dam. I never did it. Some people do, and some people do it today, for whatever reason they choose, let it be the "days-alive-counter". What would you do? Would you even consider it? It is just so boooring. This mechanic will contribute to the desired effect that people think twice beofre doing something risky, like shooting on someone. But next to noone will feel compromised to adopt to a very defensive style just for this slow gain of exp. Remember, we are talking mikro skills here, which have a distinct effect, but are in no way game deciding. And they take a loooong time to build up. No, I don't see any negative influence on the DayZ experience. Q There could be one scenario where people may be contempt to stay hidden for some time: If they had a fight, got wounded, received permenant reduction of their skills. They experience that their character runs slower, can't carry that much weight anymore. (As stated before, losses below 50 (standard) have a much stronger effect than gains above 50.) Hm, but I am fine with that. People often announced their wish that players should suffer long-term effects of gunshot wounds. With this system some time has to pass until they are healthy again. As I said before, the system should be set in a way that these loses below 50 points are regained relatively quickly, perhaps in the course of one play session of 3h. Show us your creativity! We can find something :)

Ok, if we put all of this together I might have a good idea. Perhaps a very simple approach would work best. If we put most of those skills we have talked about into one category, "general skills" (A) Stamina, Strength, Dexterity and (B ) lighting a fire, gutting animals, etc. All skills in this category raise at a certain rate, depending soley on "time played". This is fine with the sentence: "The motive of something has to be the effect your action causes, and not a skill you gain" No griefing possible. There is a certain incentive to hide your character, but hey... if someone wants to... some people do this today and are proud of their 140 days lived. WIth this reduction in complexity we have the desired incentive to stay alive without any distortion of the gameplay / game experience. On the other hand, if this system is in place we still have the advantage of combining it with other mechanics. For instance skills in category "general skills" - subgroup "A" (stamina, strength, dexterity) could be used to simulate the effect of gunshot wounds (permenant reduction) or illness (temporary reduction). So an experienced character would always have higher points in e.g. "gutting animal". But he may have lower stats in "A" due to gun shot wounds. As "dexterity" is influencing other skills like "gutting animals" he could be even worse in this task than a fresh starter. Example, your character is alive for 30 hours and has all values raised from 50 to 60. He receives several gunshot wounds; his skills in group A are reduced to 40 - 38 - 49. We can make it that points below 50 generate faster than in higher regions. So your character may be effected by this fight for like 5-10 hours ingame until he reaches about 50 again. 2nd category I would like to add another category of skills to keep some more complexity in the system, consisting of the two skills "medical" and "technical". That would allow for some characters to build up a distinct strength in these areas, which would be good to add another interesting layer to teamplay. These two skills could raise by actually doing medical / technical stuff. Of course we have to think of grinding and how this system affects the game experience. Regarding a medical skill, we already have the solution: Every injury is equal to the possibility to gain an infection, so grinding is completly out of question. Some treatments, e.g. bloodbags, could have an additional chance to transfer deseases. Regarding the technical skill, I am a bit in the dark. I'd like to have it as a seperate skill to have two important areas where people could be specialized, and offer their skills to mates or strangers. But I can't think of a way of preventing grinding in this area. I hope you can help me out here. Overall: It is a reduction in complexity, but it still addresses the goal to 100% (increasing identification with character). Reduction in complexity also means that it is easier to program and less traffic for the server. We still have a powerful instrument to link with other mechanics (deseases, gunshot wounds) A medical skill couldl definitly be implemented, as grinding is out of question if you risk death for low reward. And perhaps we find a good solution for a technical skill.

as soon as I have some time I'll think about it a bit more... perhaps it is possible to make a mix of a) drawbacks where it makes sense b ) scarcity of resources to prevent grinding c) high complexity, ergo no direct connection between doing X to gain exp in X in combination with a well-thought out system of feedback on character progression, so the system is as much in the background as possible but still motivating You maybe right mcentire, perma death, especially if you gain skills very slowly, is a very good prevention of grinding. But the system needs to evolve a bit more I feel...

this will definetly hinder grieving to quite a big extend. Also - in many cases- you can add drawbacks to training skills. But I have to admit, not to all of them. While I can easily except that there will be like a small percentage of the player base actively training skills - why should I care, skills don't effect combat - I am now afraid that I myself would be subject to this "I do this in order to gain exp". A good example is the skinning animals. I'd probably kill and skin every animal I encounter, not because I need food, but because I know about this mechanic. Although... would it be possible to find drawbacks for every skill? I am just thinking, for instance regarding skinning animals... Durability of items... Everytime you skin a animal your knife degrades. And if knifes are rare...? Same for chopping wood. Medical supply... To "train" medical skills you have to be wounded... ---> every time you are wounded you have a certain chance to get some kind of infection? (especially in the case of blood transfusions...) Ok, this stamina thing, perhaps we get just rid of that... "Making a fire" skill - Matches supply super-rare? Dexterity... a meta skill ... if all areas where you can train dexterity have a drawback than its fine... Don't know if we can find something for any skill... But perhaps...? Have to think about it some other day. As we have learned so far from this discussion: There has to be a drawback from training a skill, so it is completely out of question to intentionally train a skill. Maybe it could work out after all...

Ok, I have read your post once again, keeping an open mind. I have to say, the distinction you have made between immunities / visual progress and microskills into two different kinds of mechanics - those which have a trade-off and those which have not - is very good. That is true. If players would think about processing in skills that would be bad for DayZ, as this would be negative for game immersion. And after reading your statement I became more careful about the possibility that this could indeed be the effect. Lets say you know about this skill "gutting animals". Then you're incentivised to kill every animal you see and gut it, to gain exp. Same for repairing... people might carry around repair parts just to use them on a random vehicle to boost their mechanic skills. If they are lucky to find 4 bloodbags, they might start thinking: Perhaps I keep two and use the rest to train my med skills. I don't want to propose a system which leads people to such a behavior / way of thinking. That's indeed gamey. I thought that this wouldn't happen, but I start to see that it very well could go in this direction. Why should I not kill that animal, there is no drawback, but I make some progress. But as you pointed it out perfectly: "The motive of something has to be the effect your action causes, and not a skill you gain". I am persuaded. Good argumentation. Maybe some future posts will change my mind again, but for the time being I will let off from my idea of a microskill system. At least it brought us to a point where we are able to distinguish between "good and bad" progression mechanics, e.g. progression which has a drawback for players, and maybe be random. Thanks everyone for taking part in this discussion! (And maybe it is not finished yet? :) )

wow gj! I am impressed, good summary. I especially like the part where you anticipated a certain argument from me: "the only trade-off there might be is the greater hunger you get, which requires to eat more beans, which depends on the gear you find. but the people who actually came up with that idea, were the guys who criticized the progression trough gear in the first place, so i don't see any logic in that argument." (weap0n) Let's see if I manage to use it anyway ^^

I really like these two points Hoik has drawn our attention two. These two mechanims (immunities & visual character changes over time) are definitley suited to adress the overall issue which we try to solve here. (Increase player identification) As Rocket has said in various interviews, regarding abundance of PvP: He wants a) more stuff to do b ) have a structure in place which do not arbitrarily reward or punish a certain playstile,but to have various mechanics which softly influence player behavior towards the "desired" way. Desired way in the sense that players are inclined to immerse themselve in a survival context. Player behavior on a large scale is always influenced by the game design. The game design represents a structure which guides, lets say a culture of experiencing this game. That's the opportunity and challenge of an open-world / sandbox game like DayZ. It is operating without rules, but sets a structure with, yes, positive and negative incentives. You don't want arbitrary rules to e.g. punish certain playstiles. But if you have a close look, you will find all those structure elements already in place which facilitate certain playstiles. To give an example, the bloodbag system. It gives an incentive for social interaction, at least for group play. The blood bag element is not a rule, but one piece of a stucture which guides player behavior into the "desired" way. So the argument "DayZ is a free world and everybode should decide in a free way how to play" is not really valid. We already have those incentives as a part of game design. What a "skill system" now does is add another layer in the game design to facilitate a certain kind of behavior. It addresses an important question which has not been adressed by the game design so far: An effective structure which facilitates player's identification with their character. (To repeat the reason why this is important: 1. Game immersion; 2. Reduce PvP activities, as you will! die if you engange in PvP) Hoik gave us two different mechanics which adress the same goal: VIsual character progression and immunities. As Rocket understands correctly, to influence player behavior without rules, you need to take an approach from many different angles. If we have a combination of different approaches to .- in this case- increase player identification with their character, it will have success. In my belief one central part is a skill system, or "micro skills" as JoeMcentire suggested. The core argument is that progression over equipment does not work, as it is so easily overcome by groups and hoarding equipment. Micro skills, attached to your character's life and lost on death, would have a significant impact if we talk in terms of a game structure to guide player behavior. (And, just in case, I repeat: "Guiding player behavior" is already an essential part of the game design in an open game world without strict rules).

It is simple a question of game design and how its structures influence player's behavior. The individual will always behave in individual ways, as you are choosing a unique playstile. But on a broad scale people will adapt to these structure. Mid - to long term players find a way of behavior which best meets the specific structure. So we have to look at the structure and analyze its patterns. Current structure says: Your life means nothing, so don't take "survive for a long time" into consideration. That's a big reason for the abundance of PvP.

please remove it. My biggest issue with it is regarding game immersion. But you should be able to fire semi-accurate shots without looking through the iron sights. For the spray-and-pray mode in CQB. The current accuracy without iron sights feels quite well in this regard.

If that'd be enough to link a player to its character, yes. Personally I like the system for other reasons as well, as a means to increase complexity or a vehicle to simulate the long-term effects of e.g. gunshot wounds. But the reason I stress this issue is indeed player identification. You make a good point, a desase mechanic with immunities helps this cause and fits very well to the DayZ world. You think it is enough? I am not sure ;)

A skill system shouldn't replace the complexity we have right now. Where complexity can be extended, e.g. complex TOH flight engine, I am all for it. If it would be possible to add a simulation of a gun cleaning proccess, hell that would be great. But most of this stuff would be out of the possibility, a game engine can't simulate everything adequately. Mini games maybe a solution in a couple of areas, like lock picking, but in most cases they wouldn't fit in (feel gamey). The skill system can add another layer of complexity into actions where skill cannot be simulated. E.g. medical system, repairs, hunting etc. @ m00tley you're right pointing out that players should be able to do everything, e.g. repairing, medical treatments etc. We'd need to get the balance right. If exp is a requirement! to fix e.g. a helicopter, people would start grinding. If it's just a matter of percentages, things look different. You can fix the heli, but chances are you'll mess up the repair. Just find another engine part then. The more experienced, the higher the success probability. The difference between a fresh-spawn and a very experienced player should be no more than 30%, to give a number. People wouldn't feel pushed into the necessity for any grinding actions. Moreover, grinding can be prevented in many cases within DayZ, as we have a scenario of scare resources. Happy to find a single bloodbag? Have fun grinding medicals skills with it ^^

no jumping!

That's what I call the "problem with player progression through equipment". It is a central problem, but I am afraid not solvable. If you'd find a solution for this problem, I'd give up on the idea of a skill system. But I am afraid there is none. Preventing a player from looting his own body is already a bit arbitrary, but this measurement itself won't help either! As its the groups who recover equipment. With the implementation of underground bases hoarding will be even more simple. If the game design does not put any value on a specific character, this has consequences. For immersion, for abundance of PvP. The only way I can think of is to bound progression via skills onto a specific character. This is an environment game design can control.

Chernarus Shuttle Service Post apocalyptic travelling at its best. Our helicopter can take you to any location in Chernarus, we just keep some distance to the hotzones. As a service enterprise we try to make your journey as pleasant as possible. We need to ensure our own safety, so please apologize for any inconvenience caused by our security procedure. Currently we transport just one passenger at a time. But we may fly twice. As a compensation for our services we ask you for a symbolic fee. Right now we would be happy about: *STANAG-SD* If you don't have them, just offer us a can of beans and something to drink, that's fine as well. Chernarus Shuttle Service is currently not operating. Perhaps we restart this operation with the standalone. If the pick up point and destination are adequate we will invite you to our TS. Here we will inform you about the procedure. If you contact us spontanously we may have you on board within 30 minutes if you catch a good moment. A reservation in advance will make things easier of course. Our timezone is GMT+1. Usually we are online from 18:00 onwards during the week, longer hours during the weekend. We may not land exactly at your current position, so you should be able to arrive at a certain pickup point quickly. ( Map / compass ready ? ) If you are not quick enough, we will leave. Main points of the security procedure: - Have your primary out and lowered all the time. - You will have to approach the Heli from a specific direction. - Follow our orders. - Show up alone. Have a safe and pleasant flight! :)

it's better having a real skill than a skill mechanic simulating it. Cause every element which you have to learn raises the learning curve; a step learning curve is key. One one hand now a game cannot simmulate real world skills and the progress therein. Game industry often resorts to minigames in this setting; that's something I am not a fan of. Beside that: The key point of the skill system is character identification. The thesis is: Stronger identification with character leads to less PvP. Regards

That's the difference between real life and a game. A skill system simulates progression. All caps ftw

Some more in-depth skill examples Fishing: A nieche skill, and a rather difficult thing I guess. (Have fun inventing a believable minigame for that ^^) So you'd start in this case with a really low success probability: 50: 10% success proability / 10 minutes 75: 20% in 10 mins 100: 45% Gutting: A difficult thing to do as well, skill progression could reflect that: Example goat: 50: Takes 3 minutes, you get 2 meat 60: Takes 2.5 minutes, you get 2.25 meat 70: Takes 2 minutes, you get 2.5 meat 80: Takes 1.9 minutes, you get 2.7 meat 90: Takes 1.8 minutes, you get 2.8 meat 100: Takes 1.7 minutes, you get 3 meat. Fast progression in the beginning. Whether you get 2 or 3 steaks could be probability based. Applying bandage, blood transfusion, morphine etc. All medical skills are linked, so if you perform one of them, you'd get a bit better at other medical stats as well. Bandage: 50: Takes 10 sec, success probability 60% 75: Takes 9 sec, success probability 70% 100: Takes 8 sec, success probabliity 80% Bloodbag: 50: Takes 2 minutes, success probability 100%, 15 % chance of infection 75: Takes 1.75 minutes, success probability 100%, 5% chance of infection 100: Takes 1.5 minutes, success probability 100%, 0.5% chance of infection Movement, Stamina: Difference between 50 to 100 very low, but values below 50 have a distinct impact. Allows to simulate impact of gunshot wounds, illness 50: Running speed 100% 100: Running speed 110% and below 50: 40: Running speed 90% 30: RS 70% 20: RS 50% Reduction of Stamina values could be permenant (gun shot) or temporary (illness) Perhaps 1 shot to the leg would reduce stamina stats by 5-15.

After 10 months of playing I indeed have difficulties to attach myself to the character anymore. Sometimes it works, I make a fresh start and tell me: This time counts, I'll stay alive. But it gets more and more difficult, as the character is so exchangable. If you say "numbers don't fit to DayZ", there is always the option of hiding the experience information altogether from the player. You'd only get visual information from your interactions ingame, e.g. you notice that some actions are more quicker / efficient / higher success probability. Perhaps that would be an improvement to the system? Getting rid of the stats-sheet?

I would like this, but purely to fool players.

you are welcome: http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/118211-skill-system-in-dayz/

On the other hand they will have learned important skills, like being more efficient with matches, bandages or bloodags. So people will start to think... It is a question how big this penalty would be, but I am a fan of making penalities (shots/infections) bigger than the possible gains from a skill system. Player may suicide to get a fresh character, yes. But at least now there is something which will make them think, and from time to time they'd really identify with their character.