GodOfGrain

Motivation to stay alive should come from within the game, not by an external measurement. Anyhow, people will just buy two copies of the game, which is great for Bohemia, but not for us. Regarding the idea to prevent player looting their own body: Kind of an arbitrary measurement, and not very effective either. Teammates will just pick up your stuff and hand it over to you. We have discussed this topic - low value of death & life, problems of "progression through equipment" in this thread: On game design, "progression through equipment" and a system of micro-skills

That's so not true ;) The key point for DayZ is: No judgement, no arbitrary rules or punishment. But: Game design influences player behavior. And there is a design aim, which could be in this case to move away from the abundance of PvP more to a survival setting. In a game without strict rules the devs have to think even more about subtle ways to influence player behavior. Rocket is well aware of that as I recollect from early interviews. Game Structure of current DayZ mod facilitates PvP, the main reasons: - lack of stuff to do - the only "tools" players get are weapons - zombies are no threat, survival is easy - death is a mere sidenote in organized group play So I'd say the contrary. For a sandbox game like DayZ the devs have to think alot about how certain changes could influence player behavior. See also: On game design, progression through equipment and a system of micro skills

thanks, corrected

exactly, that's the idea. we need to talk about numbers working in the background, e.g. a character with a lot of training in medical skills has like a 2% chance to inflict an infection when giving a transfusion compared to 6% for a freshspawn. But this information should never be visible to a player. But plz use this thread for further discussion: http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/120173-on-game-design-progression-through-equipment-and-a-system-of-micro-skills/

^^ had to smile

Zombie Damage is way too low. Food and Water is abundant. I was always thinking "Why??" These are aparant mistakes which could have been fixed long time ago by adjusting a couple of values. Zombies are a serious threat in DayZ+ as they kill you in 3-4 hits. They still have the same buggy AI but are at least they are a threat; athmosphere increases. 3 to 4 hits? I'd be happy with 10 hits, 15 ... right now it takes like 40... And why do we have food & drinks ingame right now? You find it everywhere... Survival is supposed to be a vital element of DayZ... I know lot of things will change with standalone. I know this topic is in no way original, it has been discussed before, e.g.: Make DayZ a living hell I am posting this because I haven't seen this topic here for quite some time and I am a bit worried that the Devs will make the same mistake in the standalone. So, please vote and show your support for these basic changes! And feel free to discuss if you have a different opinion. Regards

within this system your overall efficiency would be reduced by gunshot wounds, illness, hunger or thirst - permenantly of temporary. Probably not by "not practicing" a skill. It's a good and simple solution to have most skill areas progress just over "time played" - this gets rids of many problems like false incentives, abuse and complexity. So this specific system here could not be combined with your idea. So much potential... Some people complain a "skill system" to be unrealistic. But they don't see a problem that a player gets a couple of .45 to the chest and runs away happily, still 100% up to his strength. All of these things could be simulated adequately with such a system in place.

Indeed! Of course Dean is busy with other things these days... But when he is talking about "learning by repeated use" and praises the current bloodbag-mechanic... sounds like we're a bit ahead of his thinking-process in this case ;)

So our mastermind himself is thinking about skills. Rocket should really have a look at this discussion then... I think as a community effort we managed to create a solid structure to understand the possibilties and limitations of skills for DayZ.

I think I'll just quote the relevant passage from this recent interview with Rocket: "Are you baking more social dynamics and mechanics into the game, or are you happy to leave those interactions up to the players? [...] We’re looking at ideas, and we haven’t actually implemented these yet, but we’re looking at how we could have it so that some skills, maybe, are socially learned or enhanced. Maybe very advanced skills, like being a doctor, the ability to do very specific things like suturing, might be earned those ways. We’re looking at how we could have it so that some skills, maybe, are socially learned or enhanced…like being a doctor We’re still undecided about that, because we really want to have the game avoid things like specific skill trees and stuff like that. But having it socially developed as a skill, or something you get better at through repeated use, and more of those options for social interaction like suturing, setting fractures, these kinds of things are social options. The best example we have at the moment are blood transfusions, which seem to be well-received as a reason to socially interact. Absolutely, but I don’t want to get people’s hopes up about a skill system or skill tree, so we’re more looking at how players develop the abilities to do certain things, and how players develop the ability to get better at doing things. To provide a tangible example of something we know we want the player to do – we don’t want the player to start the game and choose how their character is going to be. That will actually come out as they play the game. An example would be wanting your character to wear a cowboy hat, camouflage jacket and black pants. You’re going to have to find those items in the world. Your humanity, and these kinds of things, will affect how you look. The way you play the game will affect your player. As we explore what the player can do, that is something we’re interested in, but it’s going to require a lot of experimentation. We don’t want the player to start the game and choose how their character is going to be A couple of examples we thought of were very advanced skills, such as advanced repair of aircraft and vehicles. That’s not a skill that everybody has. And various doctor-related skills. They aren’t things that everybody just has; they’re things that maybe people can learn, but they’ll require practice and maybe some social interaction."

totally agree. If we only have weapons, all we can do is shoot.

I think the general rule for "getting better at A by doing A" is: The drawback for performing (/or being able to perform) an action has to be that huge, that the thought "could I train this somehow" wouldn't come to someones mind. That is can be done in some areas. Medicals is the best example: Everytime you are hurt by something, there is a ~5-15% chance to get an infection. Problem solved perfectly, in a realistic and very effective way. You are right Nihilisst, there should be areas where progression is not (soley) depending on time. Would be a shame not to implement that within the possibilites of such a system. I have thought of the two skills medicals & technicals. Lets have a look at the progressionin in technical skills: Drawback: - Time effort: To finish a repair action takes between 5 mins (tire) to 10 mins (engine). Exp only granted if action is completly finished - Risk: During this action a soundfile is played (*repair sounds*) which can be heared by other players over some distance. - Risk #2: (Very small) chance of hurting yourself during a repair (0.5 - 1% / repair) - Weight / size of repair parts prevents people of carrying repair parts with them just for the sake of using them should they find a vehicle. I took me quite some time of brainstorming to come up with this set of drawbacks. The drawback is not as efficient as in the case of medicals, but I think efficient enough. All of those points are also realistic. Now let's look at some other areas: Stamina: Learning by doing? Running around. Hell, that's what we do all the time anyway. No need to complicate things, just raise over time. Strength: This area would probably progress by carrying lot of weight, performing actions like chopping wood. We need an efficient / realistic drawback, and what could that be? Let's take "chopping wood". You could say, your axe degrades over time while using. But this isn't a proper solution: When you come across an item you should always think: "An axe, ok, now I am able to chop wood" and not "Cool, an axe, now I can chop wood 10 times to gain exp" (Or even worse "Damn... an axe... now I have to run into the woods and chop wood 10 times to gain exp") Drawback to carrying heavy stuff around? Difficult, very difficult. That would involve the introduction of something like ... "tiredness / fatigue". Currently: You wait 15 sec after a 1-hour-run, then you are back in business. New: You run for an hour, "tiredness / fatigue" raises to a high level --> negative effects of some sort, effecting not only combat efficiency. You have to rest for 5-15 mins. Quite a nice mechanic, even without a system of micro-skills. But it still does not solve the grinding problematic perfectly. You'd have at least some people who do the following: "Run into Cherno, grab some heavy stuff into backpack, run through the woods, get tired, wait for 10 mins, repeat" Ok... combined with "scarcity of water" / "running around requires quite a lot of water"... still not... those guys would run around a lake :D Getting nice and clean drawbacks is difficult. It should be possible in more areas than medical & technic skills though. But is it necessary? I would vote for the time being to introduce the system of micro skills with most of them raising just over time, while medicals & mechanics are learning by doing. But damn, longterm this has so much potential. The possibilities to link this system with other game mechanics are huge.

nice to hear that you support that idea, but actually I wouldn't like the direction you are going with that. See, the way you describe it skills would have a major influence on gameplay and game-experience. I imagine a system of micro-skills, which offer a somewhat noticeable progression over time, but are not influencing the current DayZ experience. Some players wouldn't even notice that this system is in place if they haven't read about it somewhere. Regarding the aspect you brought up that you progress by actually doing things: That was my first idea as well, but after a long discussion we came to the conclusion that this wouldn't work out (false incentives). You could have a look at some of those links I provided, especially the post from wep0n: Link

its realistic, its useful, and probably easy to program. Get it in! :D

haha this video... rofl (There you see: Even a shitty simulation effort would require hundrets of hours development time. And then we are still far from anything authentic and useful. DayZ can't be the mother of all simulations)

a medical system like ACE-mod would be suitable, as it just make things more complex. Making things more complex is always a good thing. But "mini-games"... perhaps regarding lock-picking, that'd be quite authentic. But nothing like DeusEx-Human revolution hacking... It just gets annoying and is a waste of time after you did it 20, 30 times.

Within this system only "fitness" skill could be affected negatively. Low fitness would effect every other areas negatively, but over all you keep progressing over time in meds, tech, survival stuff etc. Once you recover from being shot/ illness, the character performs better in these things again compared to a fresh start.

yea, as you say wepon, character progression in another way than gear is a must. It does not have to be mirco skills. Visual progression and immunities are different mechanics which adress the same purpose. But I feel it is not enough, there need to be some more elements pushing in this direction. While I think that micro skills are a good solution, realistic and very subtle, I don't press this idea just for the sake of it... If the community or devs come up with other ideas to increase player identification I am just fine with it. I am just afraid that we'll end up like in DayZ mod after a couple of month, a big deathmatch with long waiting times. Not only this, the low importance of death is a problem in itself... We have seen this in this alpha test, and we should learn from that observation. Currently not many known features of the standalone adress this issue in some way.

3th person is stupid. :D Give people the opportunity to take the easy way and they'll take it. Very hard to find first person servers these days.

Both things would be very unrealistic.

It is not that DayZ lacks complexity. It is not about longterm motivation either. The key argument is that the game design does not value a character's life. As I understand it from a logical perspective: If "progression through equipment" doesn't work, progression has to be bound to the character. Visual progression / immunity system does help, but is not enough in my point of view. That you character gets a bit better in certain things after 30, 40, 60 hours surviving is a substantial incentive. Perhaps some of you should be a bit more open towards the idea. I don't know what you are afraid of; the system is designed in a way which isn't gamey at all. It is also save towards abuse and doesn't set any false incentives; it doesn't even remind the player that it exits. And after all, getting better at things over time is realistic... I think it fits. Be aware, in my point of view there is the danger that after a couple of months with the SA we are back where we are right now in DayZ-mod: Abundance of PvP... I see "low value of player's life" as an important variable in this. And as I have argued, progress bound to character seems to be the only way to adress this issue.

*** Achievement unlocked *** Bashed the OP!

You are right, in principle it is an incentive to hide your character, strictly speaking. But within the context of: - Very slow gain of exp & everything lost on death - Hiding is boring - Progress in skills not game deciding, more effecting survival elements only few people would feel incentivized to hide their characters. Furthermore, as the micro skills do not affect combat in any way, I'd have no problem encountering someone who has hidden his character for 20 hours... he has no advantage over me.

at least you are original with your picture :D

yea heard this interview as well. Progression by equipment will probably not work... Let see... if I am in the mood I'll include all the stuff we discussed to page 1. That's all we can do :) I think we nearly solved every issue which came across...