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pilgrim*

The UNITED KINGDOM & the EUROPEAN UNION

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Posted (edited)

= 2019 =

THIS is where you can debate like SANE people about  the British Tragedy.  

 * * *

Covering 7.3% of the world population, the EU in 2017 generated a nominal gross domestic product (GDP) of 19.670 trillion US dollars, constituting approximately 24.6% of global nominal GDP.  Additionally, according to the United Nations Development Program, all 28 EU countries have a very high Human Development Index. HDI is a statistic composite index of life expectancy, education, and per capita income indicators. With a Common Foreign and Security Policy, the EU has developed a role in external relations and defence. The union maintains permanent diplomatic missions throughout the world. It represents itself at the United Nations, the World Trade Organization (the EU is the WTO's largest single trade unity),  the G7 and the G20. Because of its global influence, the European Union has been described as an emerging superpower.

Edited by pilgrim*
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Tragedy huh? Get used to it, more countries might follow and if the EU doesn't change their ways, there will be no European Union left. In fact, we can have all the perks which the European Union provide without having to give away our freedom as a country.

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2 minutes ago, IMT said:

Tragedy huh? Get used to it, more countries might follow and if the EU doesn't change their ways, there will be no European Union left. In fact, we can have all the perks which the European Union provide without having to give away our freedom as a country.

How? - please explain ? 

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1 hour ago, Survivor1431 said:

Canada > Europe ezpz

Thanks : Are you saying Canada is geographically bigger than Europe ( you mean the EU I guess, because that is the topic ? )  - or Canada has more people in it than "Europe" , or Canad a has a higher GNP than the EU ?

or are you trying to say something else ?

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8 minutes ago, Survivor1431 said:

I'm saying it's the best place to live based on scientific logic and facts.

well - you may be right about that.. for sure I won't argue .. my ancestors were in Ontario but my great grandfather brought his son back for the first World War (and his wife came with him) .. He's buried at Ypres and I'm here.  In a forest village 700m up the side of a mountain.  
I like open space (forest and rock & snow all counts as "space", right?) . Where I live here is almost as much of that  as you can get  and still be in Western Europe. 
-  you ever read "Cache Lake Country"  by John J Rowlands ?         nice simple book, probably had a lot of early influence on me 

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3 hours ago, pilgrim* said:

How? - please explain ? 

Which part do I need to explain?

1 hour ago, Survivor1431 said:

I'm saying it's the best place to live based on scientific logic and facts.

I guess that depends on which part or country in Europe you live or which part of Canada you live.

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4 hours ago, IMT said:

Tragedy huh? Get used to it, more countries might follow and if the EU doesn't change their ways, there will be no European Union left. In fact, we can have all the perks which the European Union provide without having to give away our freedom as a country.

Exactly! We need the European Federation ASAP. The nation states belong to the past and only a united Europe can stand the test of time.

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5 hours ago, IMT said:

Get used to it, more countries might follow and if the EU doesn't change their ways, there will be no European Union left. In fact, we can have all the perks which the European Union provide without having to give away our freedom as a country.

1 hour ago, IMT said:

Which part do I need to explain?

When I say "explain" - you KOW I mean give us a RATIONAL argument that can justify any part of your "get used to it"  

1 ) Why might "more countries follow" ?

2) WHERE would they follow Britain to ?

3 ) What EU "ways" must the EU change before "there will be no European Union" left? 

4) Should they change/introduce: or abandon  :   Economic policy, social care, police presence, free elections, anti-terrorist actions, disapproval of USA food standards, free internal EU movement & work, the falling population, aging, crowd control, the price and availability of health plans, tourism, augmented state over-watch, treatment of waste, preservation of the environment, freedom of speech and religion, law, basic human rights, fairer taxation, attitude to the Middle East, weapons sales, alcohol abuse, water quality, petrol & gas exploitation, self determination, euthanasia, aid to emergent African and other nations, offshore accounts, equality, decent and safe working conditions, individual right to privacy, research, linguistics, energy policy, the EUs many and varied WTO trade deals, free movement of goods and services, international cooperation, pollution, gun laws, taxation at source, the price of vegetables, insurance, checks on banking, alteration of elective structures,  curbs or bonuses on shareholder profits, technological investment ..    

4 ) I don't need to (indeed I can't) IMAGINE a WHOLE list of  =your=  POSSIBLE objections to the present EU and the various EU projects /advances/setbacks/changes/reaction to adversity/  that MAY be agreed on or faced in the future,   - I just SIMPLY WONDER WHICH of these MANY general subject areas is REALLY getting your goat?

Because you Dont Say ..

WHAT exactly leads you to this unexplained  "get used to it" casual pub-talk attitude? - Is it some "read-it-in-the-Daily-Mail" bravado "mine's another pintn EF em all" - or do you really BELEIVE for coherent explicable reasons that current EU activity as an Entity in the Real World is going to lead to "the collapse of the EU. "?? .  Do you have rational and sane arguments? 
If so, I would like to hear them.

The better you put your point of view, the better other readers will understand it.  This will be a win for your argument (we can agree on this) .. You HAVE a point of view - it is at present limited to waving a banner, as far as you have stated it.  But we don't know what the banner represents - now TELL us what it MEANS, & how you arrived at this understanding, show that it is coherent, based on fact and considered opinion (choose your own arguments) - Convince us .. Rationally.

Don't be afraid of debate. State your case.

That would be great. - thanx.

xxP

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1 hour ago, amadieus said:

Exactly! We need the European Federation ASAP. The nation states belong to the past and only a united Europe can stand the test of time.

I'd be in favor of that, in fact (after giving it the best thought I can) Yes. It is necessary and to be hoped for.

.. you know it was first suggested by Churchill - but ALL other European leaders & political figures at that time were so keen to get to grips with the affairs their OWN country after WWII and "re-start" their own national agenda, AND either face up to or oppose or support Communism ..  that he was completely ignored.   He mentions it in his memoirs.  (Brexiters hate this when I quote him) .

The EU is a large trading, social, democratic, economic, as well as moral ENTITY on a planet where only a few such world-scale structures exist. If it does not succeed, the "member states" will become .. without importance or meaning, effectively owned and exploited by .. most probably .. China.  

There is no place now for individual  "nations."   The idea of "a nation" is comparatively modern, it has a short history - [ no "Sovereign State" on earth has ever emerged except from warfare, check it out]  -and the idea of an established "national identity" and STATE, has  lasted not much longer than Colonialism, and will collapse for the same reasons :  It is outdated and irrelevant. It is a hindrance to any possible future of humanity.

The disappearance of "nations" is inevitable, and is happening now, and has been for some time.. this historical phase is ALREADY over but the corpse has not noticed that it is no longer alive.

UNLESS of course it is decided that planet-wide NEO-Fascism & a new <Ming the Merciless, God-Emperor of the World> - is the way to go.  Which I really, really think is NOT a good idea.

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1 hour ago, pilgrim* said:

I'd be in favor of that, in fact (after giving it the best thought I can) Yes. It is necessary and to be hoped for.

.. you know it was first suggested by Churchill - but ALL other European leaders & political figures at that time were so keen to get to grips with the affairs their OWN country after WWII and "re-start" their own national agenda, AND either face up to or oppose or support Communism ..  that he was completely ignored.   He mentions it in his memoirs.  (Brexiters hate this when I quote him) .

The EU is a large trading, social, democratic, economic, as well as moral ENTITY on a planet where only a few such world-scale structures exist. If it does not succeed, the "member states" will become .. without importance or meaning, effectively owned and exploited by .. most probably .. China.  

There is no place now for individual  "nations."   The idea of "a nation" is comparatively modern, it has a short history - [ no "Sovereign State" on earth has ever emerged except from warfare, check it out]  -and the idea of an established "national identity" and STATE, has  lasted not much longer than Colonialism, and will collapse for the same reasons :  It is outdated and irrelevant. It is a hindrance to any possible future of humanity.

The disappearance of "nations" is inevitable, and is happening now, and has been for some time.. this historical phase is ALREADY over but the corpse has not noticed that it is no longer alive.

UNLESS of course it is decided that planet-wide NEO-Fascism & a new <Ming the Merciless, God-Emperor of the World> - is the way to go.  Which I really, really think is NOT a good idea.

Well put. I have been a proud Euro-Federalist for over 10 years and I deem it the only way ''forward''. Together we can act as a united front against other superpowers, use our influence around the world (which is a good thing) and bundle resources in economic, social and high tech development. To just name a few.

Exactly as you said, the nation states as we know it today barely exist for a couple of hundred years, but most people can't seem to think that they can live without. Nation states create artificial borders and have little to do with culture. Even in a European Federation each state and region will have its own historical culture, royalty etc. But if a effective European government can manage foreign affairs, the environment, military, EU FBI, European infrastructure and international economics and trade, then that would be great, other policy fields could be partly done by the European government and by the state governments.

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18 hours ago, pilgrim* said:

1 ) Why might "more countries follow" ?

These days, you hear more and more politicians and people talking about their country leaving the EU. Once the Brexit is complete and they see that Britian is just doing fine without being a member of the European Union, more countries might follow that path. Your country doesn't need to be part of the European Union in order to survive, hell, look at Norway, they're doing just fine.

18 hours ago, pilgrim* said:

2) WHERE would they follow Britain to ?

Well you know, perhaps out of the European Union?

18 hours ago, pilgrim* said:

3 ) What EU "ways" must the EU change before "there will be no European Union" left? 

Breaking the sovereignty of a country. You can't just sanction a country if they don't want to follow your vision or plans. Take for example the countries which are being sanctioned for not taking in refugees. If a country doesn't want refugees for whatever reason, then that's their choice. Stuff like this should be decided on a country-level, not on union-level. Being a member of the European Union should bring perks and be advantageous, not being a burden.

18 hours ago, pilgrim* said:

4) Should they change/introduce: or abandon  :   Economic policy, social care, police presence, free elections, anti-terrorist actions, disapproval of USA food standards, free internal EU movement & work, the falling population, aging, crowd control, the price and availability of health plans, tourism, augmented state over-watch, treatment of waste, preservation of the environment, freedom of speech and religion, law, basic human rights, fairer taxation, attitude to the Middle East, weapons sales, alcohol abuse, water quality, petrol & gas exploitation, self determination, euthanasia, aid to emergent African and other nations, offshore accounts, equality, decent and safe working conditions, individual right to privacy, research, linguistics, energy policy, the EUs many and varied WTO trade deals, free movement of goods and services, international cooperation, pollution, gun laws, taxation at source, the price of vegetables, insurance, checks on banking, alteration of elective structures,  curbs or bonuses on shareholder profits, technological investment ..    

We can have all this stuff without the need of the European Union telling members what they can or can not do or what they need to do or shouldn't do. A country which are part of the European Union should be sovereign and be able to decide to take part in plans or visions which affect their country. Sure, there needs to be some rules on certain aspects but you can't force all rules down the throat of a country. If they don't want to follow those rules, why not part from each other?

18 hours ago, pilgrim* said:

.. you know it was first suggested by Churchill - but ALL other European leaders & political figures at that time were so keen to get to grips with the affairs their OWN country after WWII and "re-start" their own national agenda, AND either face up to or oppose or support Communism ..  that he was completely ignored.   He mentions it in his memoirs.  (Brexiters hate this when I quote him) .

And now Britain is the one leaving the European Union, ironic, isn't it? I guess you don't see the point that he was just trying to save his own ass. After shit hit the fan for them, he has turned to the US multiple times, trying to get them involved in the war, same goes for the USSR. In which ironically the latter even backfired and had the opposite effect.  I call that cowardice, they messed up and now they want others to solve their problems.

16 hours ago, amadieus said:

Well put. I have been a proud Euro-Federalist for over 10 years and I deem it the only way ''forward''. Together we can act as a united front against other superpowers, use our influence around the world (which is a good thing) and bundle resources in economic, social and high tech development. To just name a few.

Yes, great idea, let's immediately put this plan to action. Let's get World War 3 started immediately. Think about what would happen. The European Union turning into one country, immediately being the most powerful country on the entire planet. Russia and China will immediately feel threatened and World War 3 is going to be unavoidable. Tension between NATO and Russia are already high, let's not put oil on that fire. Let's not forget that since the creation of NATO, it has mostly expanded to the east of Europe. Now why would Russia feel threatened by NATO and act agressive towards them? Hmm, I wonder...

I think even the US might feel threatened by that action, even though the EU and US have tight relations.

Also, borders are there for a reason. They are not fictional or made up, they serve a purpose. I know that the world being one big country looks as a very good idea through rose-tinted glasses, but trust me, it's not. There is never going to be world peace, never. Why? It's human nature. Why were there so many tribes in the past? So many communities? They were what today represent countries, continents, etc. Humans have always lived in groups and sometimes they live in peace and sometimes they're at war.

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42 minutes ago, IMT said:

Yes, great idea, let's immediately put this plan to action. Let's get World War 3 started immediately. Think about what would happen. The European Union turning into one country, immediately being the most powerful country on the entire planet. Russia and China will immediately feel threatened and World War 3 is going to be unavoidable. Tension between NATO and Russia are already high, let's not put oil on that fire. Let's not forget that since the creation of NATO, it has mostly expanded to the east of Europe. Now why would Russia feel threatened by NATO and act agressive towards them? Hmm, I wonder...

I think even the US might feel threatened by that action, even though the EU and US have tight relations.

Also, borders are there for a reason. They are not fictional or made up, they serve a purpose. I know that the world being one big country looks as a very good idea through rose-tinted glasses, but trust me, it's not. There is never going to be world peace, never. Why? It's human nature. Why were there so many tribes in the past? So many communities? They were what today represent countries, continents, etc. Humans have always lived in groups and sometimes they live in peace and sometimes they're at war. 

A person can be free in his mind, and not influenced by other people on his thinking. Such a person will always welcome the progress of mankind in the world community. But for now, there are many people who will tell him that this unification is an attempt to influence his freedom, his thinking, and that this is a new kind of slavery. Can it scare anyone? Yes, it can greatly scare people who receive information that there is a hidden threat of freedom in the new system. Who can provide people with information about the danger of losing their freedom? That's right, it is peculiar to those who have an impact on people and do not want to deprive themselves of giving their rules of freedom. Conflicts will exist as long as people receive non-valid information and are not able to analyze it.
Evaluate and analyze information on the status of indicators of human life in the association, try to conduct your own analysis and use different sources of information:
- state of economy of association
- the level and duration of human life
- average population growth
maybe something else...

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As humanity has grown, expanded and evolved, we have found ourselves organizing in larger and larger groups. We started out as family units, now we have the United Nations. I'm fairly certain this development will continue its course, not go in reverse.

Good thing too. One fine day, when this planet is spent, we will have to take to the rest of the solar system. This, I believe, will have to be a global team effort, as orbital infighting will surely be our downfall. And if sci-fi has taught me anything, it's that we all need matching jumpsuits. I vote for silver with a purple lightning stripe across the midsection.

 

As for the EU, I see good and bad. It's mostly the industry that benefits, but I like the stability. Hitherto, Europe hasn't exactly been known for that.

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4 hours ago, IMT said:

Yes, great idea, let's immediately put this plan to action. Let's get World War 3 started immediately. Think about what would happen. The European Union turning into one country, immediately being the most powerful country on the entire planet. Russia and China will immediately feel threatened and World War 3 is going to be unavoidable. Tension between NATO and Russia are already high, let's not put oil on that fire. Let's not forget that since the creation of NATO, it has mostly expanded to the east of Europe. Now why would Russia feel threatened by NATO and act agressive towards them? Hmm, I wonder...

I think even the US might feel threatened by that action, even though the EU and US have tight relations.

Also, borders are there for a reason. They are not fictional or made up, they serve a purpose. I know that the world being one big country looks as a very good idea through rose-tinted glasses, but trust me, it's not. There is never going to be world peace, never. Why? It's human nature. Why were there so many tribes in the past? So many communities? They were what today represent countries, continents, etc. Humans have always lived in groups and sometimes they live in peace and sometimes they're at war.

This is exactly what the US and Russia want as well! For Europe to remain divided so that we cannot reach our true potential. Why should we stop integrating? Just because other superpowers feel intimidated? That is not the correct mindset, we should not let other nations dictate our future. While I know the EU has been influencing Eastern-European states, Russia has been doing similar and more with the events in Ukraine. I see no reason to back-off from Russia, better yet, it is a country that only know hard-power (instead of soft power).

I know borders serve a purpose and I am for strict EU borders, we cannot have Europe overrun by illegal immigrants. Same with a One World Order. It might be possible, but only so far in the future that we have colonized other planets.

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5 hours ago, IMT said:

look at Norway, they're doing just fine. 

Sure they are. But is it because they're out of EU ? Or because they have shitload of petrol ?

(20% of their economy, and it pays 8% of public budget)

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On 4/11/2019 at 5:29 PM, IMT said:

We can have all this stuff without the need of the European Union telling members what they can or can not do or what they need to do or shouldn't do. A country which are part of the European Union should be sovereign and be able to decide to take part in plans or visions which affect their country.

<< a country which is part of the European Union should be sovereign >>

IT IS .. the EU is a club, the members of the club are Sovereign States. Do you know ANYTHING about this AT ALL?   - EVERY decision made by the members is AGREED and SIGNED by the Head of State of the country that Signs.. NOT by anyone else. Got it?  - if that Sovereign State does NOT agree, the Leader of the Sovereign state DOES NOT SIGN, and that "EU decision" DOES NOT HAPPEN.

WHY is this difficult to understand?  Jeeez -  If the UK was NOT a Sovereign State the UK could NOT leave the EU  <duh>

This is how the EU works - READ up on the European Council  <good grief>
talk later when you have the facts

xxP

Edited by pilgrim*
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On 4/10/2019 at 7:16 PM, IMT said:

Which part do I need to explain? 

On 4/11/2019 at 5:29 PM, IMT said:

hell, look at Norway, they're doing just fine.

 

* * *

but leave that aside...  lets look at Norway.. you seem to think Norway is doing well because they are NOT in the EU ??  - you are STRANGE ! -


OK dude, lets compare Norway withj the "United Kingdom" - here's a very very SHORT education, learn about Norwegians and Northern Europe..   (just a BIT, OK?)
Norway is VERY DIFFERENT from the UK - (sorry to generalise so Quickly) but NORWAY has been a long term Left and socialist country since the 50s.. and it is as concerned about it's ordinary citizens, living standards, work, health care, schools, quiet & efficient policing, fair taxation, civil liberties, .. <jeez, FREE EDUCATION for starters - how long ago was THAT dumped in the UK>. You are trying to compare different places where the CITIZENS of each country have generally STRIKINGLY different attitudes to what is important, to life, to community, to environment, to honesty, to political and social rights .. things that AID Norway enormously, just as their LACK is eating away at Britain's future.   AND Norway is very close to the EU in agreements and trade, eg EFTA,  and in no way feels "threatened" by the EU. Quite the opposite, htey are mutually supportive.  


So WHY is Norway NOT like the UK ?   ...  hmmm ...  (do you know MUCH about it? )

OK .. OK dude, lets compare  - I don't know why you want to do this, but if YOU choose Norway, then let's go for it.

      *

- Norway was a founding member of the European Free Trade Association (EFTA).

- Norway is a member of the The Nordic Council - the official body for formal inter-parliamentary co-operation among the Nordic countries (87 representatives - The representatives are members of parliament in their respective countries or areas and are elected by those parliaments. The Council holds ordinary sessions each year. In 1971, the Nordic Council of Ministers was formed ).

 - 1954, the Nordic labour market was created and in 1958, building upon a 1952 passport-free travel area, the Nordic Passport Union was created. These two measures helped ensure Nordic citizens' free movement around the area. A Nordic Convention on Social Security was implemented in 1955. There were also plans for a single market but they were abandoned in 1959 shortly before Denmark, Norway, and Sweden joined the European Free Trade Area (EFTA). Finland became an associated member of EFTA in 1961 and Denmark and Norway applied to join the European Economic Community (EEC)

- The initially envisioned tasks and functions of the Nordic Council have become partially dormant due to the significant overlap with the EU and EEA.


*

- Norway maintains the Nordic welfare model with universal health care and a comprehensive social security system, and its values are rooted in egalitarian ideals.

 - Through 1945-1965  government, led by prime minister Einar Gerhardsen, embarked on a program inspired by Keynesian economics, emphasising state financed industrialisation and co-operation between trade unions and employers' organisations.

- The Norwegian state has large ownership positions in key industrial sectors.

- Norway has had the highest Human Development Index ranking in the world since 2009, a position also held previously between 2001 and 2006. It also had the highest inequality-adjusted ranking until 2018 when Iceland moved to the top of the list.

- Norway ranked first on the World Happiness Report for 2017 and currently ranks first on:
- the OECD Better Life Index,
- the Index of Public Integrity,
- the Democracy Index.

- From 1945 to 1981 the Labour Party held a  majority in the parliament, and again the Left held the gocvernment in 1998-2003 followed by the Center & Left "red-green Coalition" until 2013 ( Labour Party, Socialist Left Party, and the Center Party.)

- Despite coalition governments, the Labour Party has remained the largest party in parliament with 31% of the popular vote, followed by the Socialist Left Party.  (The third largest party, the Conservatives, have around 17%)

- In the 1970s, the Nordic Council founded the Nordic Industrial Fund, Nordtest and the Nordic Investment Bank. The Council's remit was also expanded to include environmental protection and, in order to clean up the pollution in the Baltic Sea and the North Atlantic, a joint energy network was established.

- The election campaigns are frequently dominated by classical welfare issues such as better care for the elderly, improved hospitals and better schools. At the last elections NO PARTY  called for Norwegians to pay privately for such things as hospital visits, college education or elderly care. Labour & the left back traditional Labour/Socialist concerns such as social security, health, high taxes, the industrialisation of nature, and feminism.


- Norway has one of the lowest crime rates in the world.


 * *

If any of this is garbled or misinformed, please point it out to me. (you seem to know something about the Nordic countries, and your grasp of British history is "amazing") )


So - WHY does Norway have one of the lowest crime rates in the world?  - Unlike for instance the USA? Because they are not members of the EU, maybe Britain will soon have a low crime rate too, and a better national health?  ??  Perhaps Norway stay calm and honest because they are members of EFTA ?? - the EUROPEAN FREE TRADE ASSOCIATION ? Because they cooperate with people of different political opinions to form Governments that work?  Or perhaps they are easy-going people who don't rant a lot? - or maybe even because they are largely Left wing ..  even... [=gasp=]  Socialists ??
 

What IS the difference between THEM and the UK, and PLEASE DONT say they are great because they are not in the EU.. try to stay real..

xxP

 

* * *

[ ..er..   p.s.  ]

About CHINA and Russia (because YOU did mention them... OK?)  .. and the USA  ?

Remember Russia is largely an Asian country - look at a map of the world - in the West we tend to forget that. Russia has been using currency for years now to build up Gold Reserves (because Sterling and the Dollar could go drop out .. er.. anytime.. ?  Asian countries have already considered cutting these currencies out of the key new world trade currencies, because who really needs them anymore? ). Russia cooperates multilaterally on MANY levels, economic and scientific [and defence] and technology exchange, with China and the rest of Asia..
Check on a MAP where VLADIVOSTOK is situated, dude !!! . LOOK at the Planet .. LEARN this stuff..     e.g. The biggest world trade fare in Aircraft Sales is in China (NOT the USA, that was years ago)

...  BUT the EU is still the world's largest trading market unit and is still - just about - holding it's own in competition with Asia, AND in dealing with Asia (the EU is also keen to maintain EU citizens standard of life.. which makes things more difficult, but is FUNDAMENTAL [ tell Trump or May ? ] )... Russia considers seeing itself becoming part of the EXISTING new world manufacturing center (Asia) and Russia has huge deposits of strategic raw materials (easier to get to now the permafrost is melting).   

Meanwhile over 90% of the USAs total GDP goes to paying USA annual debt (but NOT the debt itself, just the INTEREST on the Debt!).

China already won the war against the USA - it studied the USA, it adopted the USA's world economic model - BUT it does it BETTER than the USA - so it won. End of story.
The USA just hasn't GOT THE POINT yet. 

Let's leave that OBVIOUS FACT aside, because it causes "strange ranting" from Westerners & from the USA whose houses are full of goods made in China and Asia..
Even your clothes are made in Pakistan or India, or China or the Pacific Rim - as well as your iphone and your flat-screenTV, your Xbox &, PC your pocket lamp, your bike, your power tools, your stereo  <all the the stuff you need to live & work with, dude>, your toilet seats, most of your car (all of your car?), even your plastic garden chairs, your knives and forks.. your socks your sneakers and your damn underwear.. DUDE !! 

Better warn the USA - that's not MAGA ! - burn all that crap.. watch your standard of living drop through the floor. You are OWNED.
.. throw out EVERYTHING in your house not "MADE IN AMERICA" , just DUMP it... see what you have left..
.. LOL

Is the USA really going to NUKE their local supermarket  convenience store (China) because it makes ALL the stuff THEY BUY ??  - wow. (well THAT won't work too good !!).  the Chinese don't need Nukes to WIN. They WON ALREADY.. Is any non-EU country going to NUKE their own STANDARD of LIVING and then take over China Russia the Pacific Rim, S Korea, India & Pakistan ? 

..   will need PLENTY of troops (signing up soon?) ..  that would be a great life ?  You could [TRY TO?] follow in the footsteps of the ancient forgotten British Empire.. ??
OR Britain could TRY AGAIN ?? (war is natural - YOU told us, right?).

China IS the USA's standard of Living.   China OWNS the USA.   Trade tariffs on Chinese goods are PAID BY USA Citizens (no one seems to understand tariffs are  paid by the buyer, NOT paid by China).

You can't pay a USA citizen to work in a USA factory for low enough wages to make goods to replace the Asian imports they use every day everywhere  - if you forced USA citizens to work that cheaply they wouldn't be able to afford EVEN the stuff they made THEMSELVES.

Same goes for the UK.

(LOL - unless you set up a Socialist state).

The EU is doing it's best to deal with this.. so far we are at break-even point..    the USA is falling behind.  Britain wants to follow it?

Live with it..

xxP

Edited by pilgrim*
I'm a European - a European Federation makes sense

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58 minutes ago, pilgrim* said:

..

As someone who lives in Scandinavia it's common consensus that Norway is doing better without EU, which is true.

Throughout the 20th century Norway had stable economy excluding the recession after ww1 (which affected whole Europe and beyond)  and when they finally found oil from the North Sea they saw their GPD go up more 2 folds.

They were smart, they knew their place, stayed out of EU and kept their independence. For that I (amongst many) take my hat off for Norway.

Britts are going to start something great and beautiful if they exit and I truly hope others will follow. 

One of the last nails for the EU coffin was to allow vagabond countries like Greece and Poland to join the federation.  Poland for example gives finger to immigrant policies,  climate policies and has weak oversight for food production which they sell inside EU borders, sadly. Top of that they are one of the top net receivers from EU with other eastern block countries. Countries that mainly follow the rules, like Sweden and Finland for example, pay for their living.

Everything was forever, until it was no more. Every union and empire has fallen at somepoint, EU is going to fall, what ever the time period is, it's definitely not too soon.

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50 minutes ago, benedictus said:

As someone who lives in Scandinavia it's common consensus that Norway is doing better without EU, which is true.

Throughout the 20th century Norway had stable economy excluding the recession after ww1 (which affected whole Europe and beyond)  and when they finally found oil from the North Sea they saw their GPD go up more 2 folds.

They were smart, they knew their place, stayed out of EU and kept their independence. For that I (amongst many) take my hat off for Norway.

Britts are going to start something great and beautiful if they exit and I truly hope others will follow. 

One of the last nails for the EU coffin was to allow vagabond countries like Greece and Poland to join the federation.  Poland for example gives finger to immigrant policies,  climate policies and has weak oversight for food production which they sell inside EU borders, sadly. Top of that they are one of the top net receivers from EU with other eastern block countries. Countries that mainly follow the rules, like Sweden and Finland for example, pay for their living.

Everything was forever, until it was no more. Every union and empire has fallen at somepoint, EU is going to fall, what ever the time period is, it's definitely not too soon.

Norway takes a good portion of EU laws, participates in a lot of EU programs and is very much committed to the EU as a whole. They simply just do not have any voting power or the euro. Really, Norway would not be worse of when joining the EU.
Saying that the EU takes away a nations independence is nonsense. Every member state is a sovereign nation within the EU and can choose to leave the Union whenever it wants, as a sovereign and independent nation.

Haha beautiful? The UK's economy has only seen negative effects of the Brexit so far. This ridiculous process has cost the British taxpayer millions and millions...

  • Beans 1

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5 minutes ago, amadieus said:

 Every member state is a sovereign nation within the EU and can choose to leave the Union whenever it wants, as a sovereign and independent nation.

Tell that to the britts. Whole EU is constructed around the biggest players, especially Germany. 

You are right about the process though. Problem is that people voted with emotion and Cameron hammered the decision without proper plan and then resigned.

They forgot the wise words of the Bulldog, "The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."

 

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3 hours ago, pilgrim* said:

This is how the EU works - READ up on the European Council  <good grief>
talk later when you have the facts

xxP

Yes, and that is exactly what I mean. We don't need an European Council in order to make it work. The goal of the European Union was to bring peace upon Europe and have economic benefits between member states. It wasn't set out to be political and it doesn't have to be and it shouldn't be.

2 hours ago, pilgrim* said:

*snip*

Don't twist my words. I never claimed that Norway is doing just fine because it is not in the EU. I said that Britain leaving the EU isn't disastrous and doomed because there are countries which are not in the EU and they're not poor, doomed, etc. So as example, I took Norway. I could've taken Switzerland as example as well but I went with Norway. It just means that with or without the EU, a country can just do fine and so can Britain. And what's with all the stuff on Norway and China anyway. How does this information contribute remotely to the discussion? You sure like to extrapolate stuff, that's for sure.

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3 hours ago, benedictus said:

Britts are going to start something great and beautiful if they exit

 

yes the brexit vote was a total balls-up, designed by the Conservatives as a temporary stopgap advantage without a thought for the benefit of the country. They totally blew it and are still suffering from the mess they made. Refusal to admit their own short-term selfishness and ignorance has dug them a deeper hole and we are now ALL in it. The problem is that Britain is also suffering from that same Conservative-designed "think-tank" mess as it GROWS, and the Conservatives are NOW making use of the chaos to HIDE the ten years of total mismanagement that has effectively DESTROYED Britain.   Do you know even British average life-expectancy is going down, there are less schools, welfare, hospital services, transport, police, jobs, sewage treatment, countryside, small businesses, fishing boats, more crime, less money per Council - Britain is a mess and is not going to get better until someone DELIBERATELY sorts it out. This is INTERNAL and it has nothing at all to do with the EU. (leaving the EU will just make Britain's OWN current problems worse .. it won't cure the disease)

Meanwhile.. @benedictus

.. er .. ignoring your xenophobe "vagabond countries"  jibe,  and your misinformation on a Scandinavian "common consensus" ( you are NOT good at vote-counting or reading statistics, right ?)   and glossing over your amazing ignorance about Norway's "independence" ..it  seems you've missed out a lot on current affairs and state decisions made in Northern Europe since the 50s,  and you  haven't noticed the Nordic Council or EFTA at all??.. and naturally you didn't read my synopsis (of COURSE you wouldn't, why should you bother?)

but leaving APART your uninformed but cheerful balderdash (mate - let's be kind and call it "hearsay") ..  you DO STATE :

<< Brits are going to start something great and beautiful if they exit >>

- OK -

PLEASE TELL ME WHAT ?

thanx - I wait for your reply with interest..

Perhaps you already know that there is NO British politician who has suggested that Britain is going to "start" anything at all good at  "exit" ..  I  have found
ZERO information on "advantages"
ZERO information on "future possibilities"
NOTHING on "realistic trade advantages"
ZERO information on "benefit to the population"
NOTHING on "greatness"
DEFINITELY ZERO on "beauty"
The British political speakers and analysts THEMSELVES who are in favor of leaving the EU have NOT put forward any coherent arguments how this would make BRITAIN a BETTER PLACE for ANY of the British Citizens living in it.  In Any Way.   Sorry - if you can point me to something that states otherwise - give me the LINK...

( Considerably less than 1% of the British population - & plenty of non-residents  - will make a considerable profit from brexit of course... but we know that )

IF YOU HAVE ANY REAL INFORMATION, PLEASE SHARE IT 

(no extreme Billionaire, or Illuminati, or Biblical, or Empire, or "We Stood Alone" or Mein Kampf quotes please, we've all ALREADY heard the headbangers view of human reality and their fantastical history of the British Isles .. in British pub talk there often isn't much else).  There is a great deal of crapulous misinformation and viewpoints founded on a very few hollow slogans. = Tell us your FACTS. Then we can spread them intelligently.

thanx

2 hours ago, benedictus said:

They forgot the wise words of the Bulldog, "The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."

You forget that The Bulldog went on to say :
No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed,  democracy is the worst form of government EXCEPT all those other forms that have been tried from time to time

xxP

 

Edited by pilgrim*
~

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1 hour ago, IMT said:

The goal of the European Union was to bring peace upon Europe and have economic benefits between member states

AND it worked !! 

AND the only way you can have peace and economic benefits is by States making decisions.  

so what's your problem with that?   State decisions ARE Political Decisions.  What do you THINK they are ?  

If two Sovereign States make an Agreement not to Nuke each other does that mean they have lost the right to make political decisions ?

<duh?>   I don't get it.

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