Just a concern - game direction

[Sooden 301]

Just a concern..But not new (Don’t post if you don’t wanna read a small book’s worth of text :P)

 

Way back when the kick starter happened it was exciting, Loved the Dayz mod, work on a mod of the mod myself (the kids backpacks where added to dayz standalone shortly after I posted a screen shot from my mod and the importance of low level pack…was also holding a sword :P). I felt involved and the game was going in a good direction.

 

Then dean left and things seem to change, the worry set in and I voiced it… is Dayz going to be something special or just another FPS. Also predicted Sony would rip of the idea.

 

The game kept focusing on FPS and adding some side function survival stuff (a good amount of it, but still on the side)… I said that people playing if for the FPS would jump ship as soon as another, better FPS was on the market >< Then the battle royals came along and days became a below par FPS with survival.

 

This is the issue, The FPS aspect and the survival are not integrated, and worried they will not be. You will have 2 games in one, doing neither very well, just to get the game out? Or maybe it’s the vision of the game? If that’s true, I’m sure it will be enjoyed by people after a quick shoots, and not saying there is anything wrong with that, just hoped Dayz would be ‘ground braking’.

 

After a long brake I got into 0.63 and looks good, and I know there is more to come but… with what is there, it’s still a FPS or Survival game, 2 in one. I will try to explain:

 

-If you want a quick blast with friend, it does that, not very well compared to other game (From what I have watched). You can play is as a FPS with some zombies that get in the way (not part of the goal, they give nothing to the FPS as entertainment, they want to fight other players)

 

-If you want to role-play/pretend you’re surviving in a post apocalypse world, with reasonable expectations, you get the basics and bug out. You don’t go after big guns, that’s where the FPS just camp. You do get the tools you need and try to make sustainable food and clean water (super easy once you know how and no challenges left*1).

-This is what we have as 2 games in one… If you FPS, you not setting up camps and farming (Don’t need too), if you’re trying to survive for weeks, there is zero reason to go into most areas once you have an axe, a knife and, and some way to make clean water.

(Role-players seem to hate PvP/FPSer and PvPers think role players need to get over it :P)

 

-2 Conflicting types of game in one… but wait, the old argument that went around and around in the old forum… if it’s was ‘’blah blah blah, people would be killing each other’’, and it when on for ever…. But this isn’t a survival simulation issue but a game design issue and one that many games suffer with. Also related to ‘risk and reward’, not just in game assets but enjoyment.

 

‘It’s a game’ and you respawn when dead. This is heavily swung in the favor of FPSer/PvP. Their goal is to get weapons and fight, a crazy, psychopathic trait in a human :P Nothing wrong with this in a game, no one should be forced to do it another way but…

…What about the long term, RPing survivor, playing a survival game instead of a FPS? Sure, they gotta protect their stuff, defend against raider (Though these guys are not raiding, still :P). How would they do it… they go and find the psycho and remove them… thats nature, threat reduced and all is good?

 

No.. it’s a game and we respawn on death, so the FPSer just tools up again and gives it another try, the Survivors have to defend again and take out the same thread they just did! And on it goes (that’s a PvP game loop not a survival game loop*2)…. You can no remove threats and that is an issue (in a lot of games), so in survival, you are forced to Partake in FPS over base building and farming… or got to game that’s more survival based (the forest, The long dark –sadly not MP… even Conan exiles does survival well with PVP, but that’s because not guns :P)

 

I guess that’s a long way of saying/pointing out, Dayz is not a proper survival game but a mishmash of FPS and survival, that doesn’t work together/correctly. …and in 0.63, didn’t get sniped by people just wanted to kill you for no reason other than the luls, then I found out scopes are not in game yet..haha

 

I would offer suggestion but don’t know if at this stage there is any point. Form the live stream they seem to talk about adding survival, but if they have got this far without really adding it, I worry :P

I’m sure the game will get fixed by the Modders, and Dayz is just a platform on which Modders will make games… *Cus, right now, I don’t know what Dayz is trying to be*

---well, just one more comment: P

Dayz wanted to keep away from the RP/stats/leveling side of thing, I agreed… then they talked about soft stats (Still happening?).

There needs to at least be some reward for surviving over FPS… if it’s a survival game. FPSer don’t normally last that long and they don’t care (nothing wrong with that, put the Keys down!). there are so many that could be added as reward for surviving in a survival game (*3), but then the FPSer could cry that is not fair, as they just want a fun FPS game… Dayz, you can’t do both well ><

 

---

*1) no survival challenges left unless you do the anti-survival action of putting yourself in extra danger by looking for people, or picking up big guns and amour you will never use.

 Sure, I do put myself at extra risk for fun, but it’s has rewards…. I go looking for nicer clothes, don’t just survive, and thrive: P

*2) When a player or group is aggressive, it’s the other side that needs to reduce the threat. Normally by removing their recourses or access to them (as threat respawn), Buying the none aggressive side time to get stronger, and if successful, they become safe.

In dayz: Where the survivors recourses are some weapons, food and water and a base. The FPS recourses are what spawns on the map… they just server hop, tool up and they are back :P

*3) spend long enough in the woods in Rl and you will soon notice how you can single out and pinpoint sounds… a visual marker of somesort (as an option) as a reward, but would so upset the FPSer crowd

[emuthreat 2837]

I've always played DayZ with the intent of rebuilding civilization.  About this time last year, a community server started a project that seeks to do just that; and it was certainly the most interesting gameplay I've ever seen.

I don't want to promote servers in the wrong thread, but it shouldn't be too hard to figure out where to go to find people who are Almost Friendly^TM.

Early on, I wanted to be a mobil mechanic, working for tacbac and shotshells.  As things progressed, I later got the idea in my head that a good milestone for a full survival experience would be the ability to craft a hoagie sandwich from scratch.

They did implement soft skills, albeit in what I see as a completely meaningless manner.  A strict dichotomy of rough (chopping wood), and fine skills (stitching clothing).  With a bar that favors one side or the other at a time, with only marginal gains.
Meaning that if you chop lots of wood, you will never be able to increase fine skill proficiency.

I made a reaction thread when this was first announced.

It will be interesting to see how well an organized coalition of like-minded players can succeed in establishing permanent bases and pushing back the FPS KOS crowds.  Dominating a server by controlling access to resources, and stockpiling enough to mount a continuous response to persistent threats.
We were never effective at pushing back antisocial players to the coast, mostly because when one KOSer would quit a new person would login in a different spot to take his place in the server.  But nothing can stop us trying.

See you around the township, or burgh, or whatever the word for that thingy is...

[Sooden 301]

5 hours ago, emuthreat said:

See you around the township, or burgh, or whatever the word for that thingy is...

if i get back into dayz, i will try and find ya :) rather play a support roll than a killer

looked at your linked post, seem all that skill stuff was discussed and ignored a while back :P and then the team went with , well, hmm ><

---and here is an addition to my post... more long winded waffle form me ---

flow chart :P

So here is the issue Is it FPS or Survival.

It seems, once you have some water in you and a few apples (maybe a tactical can or 2) , you can run to a military location and kit up (maybe do it on a low pop server first?). Then camp out and snipe (Never understand the fun in that, but each to their own) or go on a rampage. Personally, once I have a hunting knife, I’m set :P (I guess you can go hunt chickens with an AK, but all seem to easy)

This is not a survival path; this is right to end game kit. This is FPS.

So what would a survival game look like (not all are going to like this and like dayz as it is, all I’m doing is defining what dayz could/should be like, to be a survival game over FPS) – said it before, not sure what Dayz is trying to be.

---‘Start game’

Everyone needs Food and water, but it’s kind of too easy. Water is easy enough to find and food spawns in big tins that fill you up for a good amount of game play time. You don’t have to do anything but loot house and find apple trees, and I’m sure they are adding more loot-able foods (Mushrooms)…

.. yes, sometimes is hard to find food on a populated server, normally the player in  cammos has it, as they hide the bush :P… but it’s not hard for the first person to turn up and find all the food… just luck. Seems reasonable but is it?

Food is solely down to who got their first, and that player has plenty (remember food is key, no now they are off getting all the guns as well, and its snowballs)

Food is presented in the wrong way. Sure have some cans, make then risky to eat (have a lot of them at home in RL, Washing detergent has eaten through the cans). Make a Good food can a prize, and rare, not something you find in nearly every house, if your first there (what is it they said in the stream, 3 years after the incident?). This ease of food is pandering to FPS types, who find the need to eat and drink an inconvenience over part of the game.

At the start, Food should be a constant effort, until you have the means to improve your situation. If cans in house are all but removed (made rare) the natural food will take a hit and not need adjusting… but also need to add, effort for food. If only there was some sort of shoreline, could pick muscles and other sea slugs, then you have to cook them… Going to take time to pick them up.

Where are the insects? Hand full of ants, not nice , not going to kill ya, but not going to sustain you enough to go running across the map… but its food that’s always there, if you take the time you harvest them (maybe nodes run out an refill?)

Without them easy tins, you not going to be faming high end gear, when in the next  10 mins, you need to work out where to get food again (as dayz has accelerated systems, it’s a game)… have to get some tool and resources so you can collect food in bigger numbers, that you then have to carry all of the food and tools around with you if you don’t have a base, meaning you’re not packed full of guns and ammo while your nomad-ing it around the map… see where this is going?

And this is just changing the food a little.

-- Also

Then if we really want to be harsh, we can make all water dirty or at least clean water rare. I have drunk from puddles in RL, where dogs and people have walked… knocked my flat for 3 days…. Well, this is a survival game. Make it hard!

When your drinking from bad water (don’t have it kill you right out) and eating poor food, you are weak, you are struggling.. you may die from the environment (OMG, not by a player). The long dark, although single players does this pretty well on the hardest settings… you goanna have to get good to survive, you not just going to walk in there and live the anarchy dream…. Lol you may even lose toes and fingers to frostbite before you find a match! Or just die :) But making water difficult may be a step to far, but at the moment, the environment plays a small factor in the survival aspect… how good you are with a gun and FPS games seems to be key (Like I said, before you go nuts! I don’t know what dayz is trying to be)

--This is where we break the FPS loop and put in the Survival Loop.

It's many years after the disasters and there’s t0o much ammo! (told you , you would not like it). just laying around ><

So let start with how the ammo is presented.. Out in the open, on tables and such, like the mod. No new thinking… will forgive you that, but not in the Dayz Rebith – 0.63.

We have seen ‘State of decay’ love it or hate it, it has a looting system. You have to rummage and I think this should have got the mind juices thinking for the new alpha of dayz. Sure have some very limited ammo accessible, but let have some emersion.

Draws/ some locked, some can be forced into, and some make noise

Weapons chests, made to be hard to get in (Get some used out of crowbars and lock picks)… I mean, if it’s meny years after the problems started, the only guns and ammo are gonna be locked up or overlooked.

Finding usable ammo should be like gold dust, you should wanna hold onto it for defense and hunting (but I also said this back in the day, didn’t listen then:P), not going out to play FPS… this is a clear sign there is an issue, if you going for a looting ,scavenging survival game… people should not have the ammo to waste.

Then you have 7 days to die (not played it) but they farm resources and craft and have guns… yes it’s a very simple game, but the concept has some good points…. I don’t know enough about guns, but don’t people cast their own bullets in RL?

If you have to do that, you have broken out of the ‘start’ to ‘FPS’ loop… if you have to collect casts, or go to workshops, ammo can then be plentiful, but to the people playing survival over ‘pick up and play’ FPS game.

--Changing ammo changed the game from FPS to Survival

 

Making such a survival game is risky and has to be done right… I could not see dayz taking the risk , it's too late in the day. Modders will fill the gap, and like Dayz sold Arma 2, Mod will sell Dayz, so the dev team will only worry about supplying a stable platform.

 

Still, gotta give the Dayz team a big thumbs up for not giving up on the project J

 

Edited August 28, 2018 by soods

[emuthreat 2837]

 

4 hours ago, soods said:

if i get back into dayz, i will try and find ya :) rather play a support roll than a killer   I got myself into the project on a strictly logistical support basis, and would gladly use the help; although being one of the very few occidentals, I soon found myself on the night watchman duty.

looked at your linked post, seem all that skill stuff was discussed and ignored a while back :P and then the team went with , well, hmm ><

---and here is an addition to my post... more long winded waffle form me ---

flow chart :P

So here is the issue Is it FPS or Survival.

It seems, once you have some water in you and a few apples (maybe a tactical can or 2) , you can run to a military location and kit up (maybe do it on a low pop server first?). Then camp out and snipe (Never understand the fun in that, but each to their own) or go on a rampage. Personally, once I have a hunting knife, I’m set :P (I guess you can go hunt chickens with an AK, but all seem to easy)

This is not a survival path; this is right to end game kit. This is FPS.

So what would a survival game look like (not all are going to like this and like dayz as it is, all I’m doing is defining what dayz could/should be like, to be a survival game over FPS) – said it before, not sure what Dayz is trying to be.

---‘Start game’

Everyone needs Food and water, but it’s kind of too easy. Water is easy enough to find and food spawns in big tins that fill you up for a good amount of game play time. You don’t have to do anything but loot house and find apple trees, and I’m sure they are adding more loot-able foods (Mushrooms)…

.. yes, sometimes is hard to find food on a populated server, normally the player in  cammos has it, as they hide the bush :P… but it’s not hard for the first person to turn up and find all the food… just luck. Seems reasonable but is it?

Food is solely down to who got their first, and that player has plenty (remember food is key, no now they are off getting all the guns as well, and its snowballs)  Before I get into this, i must point out that most players probably want to be able to spawn in, get established, and go get into a gunfight within two hours.  I think this is probably not the game for them, but acknowledge that the devs probably are not looking to directly alienate this audience.

Food is presented in the wrong way. Sure have some cans, make then risky to eat (have a lot of them at home in RL, Washing detergent has eaten through the cans). Make a Good food can a prize, and rare, not something you find in nearly every house, if your first there (what is it they said in the stream, 3 years after the incident?). This ease of food is pandering to FPS types, who find the need to eat and drink an inconvenience over part of the game.

At the start, Food should be a constant effort, until you have the means to improve your situation. If cans in house are all but removed (made rare) the natural food will take a hit and not need adjusting… but also need to add, effort for food. If only there was some sort of shoreline, could pick muscles and other sea slugs, then you have to cook them… Going to take time to pick them up. This is a great idea, in the sense that endgame players with the necessary equipment and health/antibody/exposure tolerance, could have incentive to travel back to the coast to harvest and eat--or with the appropriate technology-- harvest and preserve these food sources.

Where are the insects? Hand full of ants, not nice , not going to kill ya, but not going to sustain you enough to go running across the map… but its food that’s always there, if you take the time you harvest them (maybe nodes run out an refill?)  This harkens back to an old suggestion of mine regarding soft skills and character development and maturing over the longevity of a single spawn-life.  Basically, it would a be a morale system, wherein comfort adds a benefit to the player in terms of digestion efficiency, nutrient density of more highly processed/prepared foods.  Chopping into a fallen log for handfulls of ant larvae will certainly keep one from starving, but one will not be happy about it.  Perhaps stuffing them in an empty tin or leather pouch for later preparation would improve the morale and nutrition of this food source.  Cramming a raw chicken breast into your face will keep you from being hungry in the short term, but would be far less ideal than frying it up with some carrots and mushrooms.

Without them easy tins, you not going to be faming high end gear, when in the next  10 mins, you need to work out where to get food again (as dayz has accelerated systems, it’s a game)… have to get some tool and resources so you can collect food in bigger numbers, that you then have to carry all of the food and tools around with you if you don’t have a base, meaning you’re not packed full of guns and ammo while your nomad-ing it around the map… see where this is going?

And this is just changing the food a little.  While I like this, the implications of forcing a PVP player to get a full 'roman legion through early 20th century' style traveling battlefield personal kitchen to be able to sustain a two or three hour sniper mission would be a HUUUUUGE turn-off.

-- Also

Then if we really want to be harsh, we can make all water dirty or at least clean water rare. I have drunk from puddles in RL, where dogs and people have walked… knocked my flat for 3 days…. Well, this is a survival game. Make it hard!  Drink more dirty water; you'll get used to it.  Player character lifetime progression doctrine here...

When your drinking from bad water (don’t have it kill you right out) and eating poor food, you are weak, you are struggling.. you may die from the environment (OMG, not by a player). The long dark, although single players does this pretty well on the hardest settings… you goanna have to get good to survive, you not just going to walk in there and live the anarchy dream…. Lol you may even lose toes and fingers to frostbite before you find a match! Or just die :) But making water difficult may be a step to far, but at the moment, the environment plays a small factor in the survival aspect… how good you are with a gun and FPS games seems to be key (Like I said, before you go nuts! I don’t know what dayz is trying to be)  I've always secretly liked the idea of salmonella or dysentery causing the player to have a rumbly tummy.  Maybe even have a postural warning that removal of the pants is necessary to prevent soiling.  Outright pooping animations are rightly taboo, and the text notifications are out of vogue. But I think it would be pretty neat if you start waddling for 30 seconds and then stop and crouch, then your pants become ruined if you haven't removed them already.

--This is where we break the FPS loop and put in the Survival Loop.

It's many years after the disasters and there’s t0o much ammo! (told you , you would not like it). just laying around ><

So let start with how the ammo is presented.. Out in the open, on tables and such, like the mod. No new thinking… will forgive you that, but not in the Dayz Rebith – 0.63.

We have seen ‘State of decay’ love it or hate it, it has a looting system. You have to rummage and I think this should have got the mind juices thinking for the new alpha of dayz. Sure have some very limited ammo accessible, but let have some emersion.

Draws/ some locked, some can be forced into, and some make noise

Weapons chests, made to be hard to get in (Get some used out of crowbars and lock picks)… I mean, if it’s meny years after the problems started, the only guns and ammo are gonna be locked up or overlooked.

Finding usable ammo should be like gold dust, you should wanna hold onto it for defense and hunting (but I also said this back in the day, didn’t listen then:P), not going out to play FPS… this is a clear sign there is an issue, if you going for a looting ,scavenging survival game… people should not have the ammo to waste.

Then you have 7 days to die (not played it) but they farm resources and craft and have guns… yes it’s a very simple game, but the concept has some good points…. I don’t know enough about guns, but don’t people cast their own bullets in RL?

If you have to do that, you have broken out of the ‘start’ to ‘FPS’ loop… if you have to collect casts, or go to workshops, ammo can then be plentiful, but to the people playing survival over ‘pick up and play’ FPS game.

--Changing ammo changed the game from FPS to Survival  While this is a great idea, it is totally not within the perceivable scope of the game, in the sense of remaking all the old systems on technology that actually supports it.  Maybe they can adapt this new tech into a system wherein interacting with a world object triggers a random loot spawn, but I don't think that is in the 'spirit' of the game as it is known today.  I'd love to see it where reloading ammo was a thing, or even mining raw materials/scavenging dynamic events (a gunfight has happened here, collect spent casings) to facilitate a means of production of commodities; but I just don't see that being in the 1.0 release plans. hopefully it will be moddable without being too hokey.

Making such a survival game is risky and has to be done right… I could not see dayz taking the risk , it's too late in the day. Modders will fill the gap, and like Dayz sold Arma 2, Mod will sell Dayz, so the dev team will only worry about supplying a stable platform.  ^^^ hopefully it can be done without being too 'gamey' feeling.

 

(I kid you not, you could make a game like I talk about, with a small able team on platforms already out there, that have multi users systems already set up, 50 player server x5 instances for same as current servers… supporting thousands of agents, using the Unity platform. This idea was impressive 5 years ago now it’s a lot easier)

I just got into no man's sky, and see some UI similarities, so hopefully they can create deployables and interactive map elements, while still retaining the 'feel' of DayZ.

Still, gotta give the Dayz team a big thumbs up for not giving up on the project J  Kudos.

 

 

[Private Evans 1303]

A very good  topic :)  I am asking myself a lot why me and my friends still are talking about all our DayZ mod adventures and epic stories after all these years while the DayZ Standalone  most of the time seems boring after a short time (allthough being so much better in technical ways).

It is exactly a soods say...if I want a gun porn...good  quick and dirty PVP and stuff I play Escape from Tarkov for example and if I want to focus on survival gameplay there are also a lot of games out there that do a much better job on that than DayZ does.

I also think that all the different game aspects, as soods also wrote above before, do not fit/work together very well and probably never will because they were never meant to work in a proper way (if that makes sense).

Deans vision was an antigame...the wild west where everything could happen everywhere and every time. But this vison died when Dean leaft ( took me years to finally realize that) and this also goes for so many good ideas and not forget to mention the complete background lore about the virus and stuff.

With Brian Hicks we saw DayZ becoming more and more a PVP orientated youtube and twitch streamer  friendly game while Peter and Eugen being a lot more focused on the survival gameplay. All of them being extremely focused on the technical side of gameplay mechanics without getting the originally idea and soul of the game and without having some fresh and innovative ideas.

Desperately trying to create somekind of an endgame by forcing people to leave the coast by placing all the high value loot up in the north only...by creating fog at the coast to prevent freshspawns from being sniped at the beach ..by restricting spawn points to specific areas etc etc etc  while on the other hand making it completely easy to live as a hermit....avoiding players and zombies and with no need to ever visit a hot spot.....

As sooden said the different ganeplay aspects have to be combined in some way but I also think we need a bit more of the old anarchic wild west feeling back.....

 

just my thoughts

 

 

 

 

[Sooden 301]

7 hours ago, emuthreat said:

 

 

you comments on 'morale system' reminded my of a system i worked on years ago, it was a a survival game set in a nightmare world (kinda like silent hill). You could rummage in trash piles and find 'food' but you where not happy about it, but if you found a nice wheel of cheese (maybe in a shops cellar), your standard of survival went up... as that went up there where 'soft' perks, and as it was s Score based game, the more luxurious your situation, the more points per tick you got (not saying days needs scoring :P 2 very different games)

Still, how well you where surviving was a big part of my game. Just managing to survive kept you alive, but the goal was to rebuild some sort of civilisation from what was at hand... it formed the games main goal/loop.

also:

i know some of the concepts i listed are a 'bit to much' for a game like this... would suck the fun out of the game for some (maybe a lot of) people as thats not why they came to Dayz. But is show how dayz identaty is an issue.

-Payers coming here for a PvP game (not bad people) will see everyone else as a PvP opponent (so git gud)

-Players coming here for a survival game will see other players as an opportunity to interact (lol, i'm friendly)

when you have the 2 different types within the same system, swung in the favour of PvP (no down side to not killing and easy loot), survival game play becomes a disheartening experience. You don't expect psychopaths around every corner (maybe one of two, but they would not be fairing well). Killing another player onsite should be a mistake, not a goal... a sign of poor player (not, ''well they are gonna kill me, so i will get them first'' <> should be ''they may have skills i need, maybe they can help me out...if not, then i plug them :P'') 

Normally i hear on the other side, that you just have to get good at PvP, and while i can understand the PvPers point of view (cus of the identity confusion of the game) i don't think they can see the other side, as complex survival game are not their 'bag' so they have no concept of what survival players are expecting (and this identity did get somewhat muddied with other shooty games calling them self survival, i'll mention the long dark as a classical survival example).

Its not that i personally could not become a great PvPer (siting in a bush and sniping is not skilled game play :P, even taken them out in dayz with pistols, by walking up on them), played lots of games that or not my thing, to join in with friends... i like trying new things at least once (lol i remember when i bought project cars 2 and steam said ''are you sure you want to purchase this game, its doesn't match the sort of games you play'', but i was willing to try it, and got good at it :P, then never played it again, not my thing)

Just, i don't come to Dayz for pvp... there now PUBG, CS_Go,Battlefield, lots and lots... and i don't play any of them, not my intrests... so i came to Dayz because i though it was survival. If one player is playing Dayz as survival and on playing it as PvP they are after 2 very different things from the game, and the survival players become 'fun ' targets for the PvPers, until the survival players understand its not a game from them, leave (or goto private servers), and then the PvPers go back to one of the other PvP games....

Oh Dayz, if only we knew what you where :P

 

Added:

Always make me cringe a bit when i see teams of people (on streams and such) head to toe in military gear and M4s. Looks like some sort of war game without rules... everyone a target. The weight and stamina system may so somewhat to fixing that :) hope to see some more adjustment.

Living in full battle 'get up' all day, eating infinite tin spawns and water on tap,not really suffering the heat, able to lug it all about even though that takes years of hardening the body (Hmm 'soft skill'). wet dream of the peppers who bought a lot of guns and are waiting for the end of the world, but didn't even stock up on toilet roll :P

(my end game kit)

Edited August 28, 2018 by soods

[cirkular 178]

@soodsOne spawn on a server. Not bad. But I don't think we need modding for this. This can be surely easily implemented to be a server option.

Well, good note about the intertwined "gameplay styles". Except this is exactly why Dayz is closer to a chaotic reality than civilized society we are used to. You don't necessarily survive when you come out forward and interact. He doesn't even have to shoot you. The guy could be sick with some disease :P Also you don't necessarily survive even when you shot first, even from ambush. How are both of those two not aspects of survival? Whatever the case, you should be in a position, able and ready to defend yourself. For someone who wants to play like a team player, builder, whatever, there is this issue of trust. As in everyday life. It has to be gained. The PVP guys chose not to worry about that. We can call them scum, but even they can find a random team mate on a server in this "mischief" of theirs.

Even kids building stuff in a game like Minecraft had troubles with these other kids who wanted to destroy their stuff and slash them. Back in the day, you've got to remember "that kid" that jumped on your sand castle or a snowman that you and your friends built together. Or maybe you destroyed it yourselves afterwards hahah

I've seen these RPG servers before, but I understood in the end that it's not my cup of tea. Sure, there are more players who are willing to make something out of their interaction other than shooting at each other. But to me, it's organized, which brings in the expectation and cosy vibes and takes out the stress of the grim situation. I think this is limiting, and the more rules people add, the more they are missing out. If you're not for this, I say leave expectations behind. And stress is good, at a certain measure. Anyway, to each their own.

edit: on the military full gear M4 etc. It is just for showing off, but first for confidence. This military gear we find could have been reduced a bit maybe or in a crappy condition. Personally, I don't know if removal of those would be good. It certainly exists so...

Edited August 28, 2018 by cirkular
gear

[Sooden 301]

2 hours ago, cirkular said:

...The guy could be sick with some disease :P Also you don't necessarily survive even when you shot first, even from ambush. How are both of those two not aspects of survival? Whatever the case, you should be in a position, able and ready to defend yourself. For someone who wants to play like a team player, builder, whatever, there is this issue of trust. As in everyday life. It has to be gained. The PVP guys chose not to worry about that. We can call them scum, but even they can find a random team mate on a server in this "mischief" of theirs.....

The issue with guns in the game is, how many, and so much ammo. Then a gun is easy to get (i spot more guns than water bottles, guess cus it 2-3 years later, they are all in the sea now :P), and then the ammo, so abundant that you can waste it, rather than than think, ' i may need that to hunt with that' or ' i may need that when i'm really in trouble', it is everywhere, sure , it may not be a barrel mag, but see a lot of ak clips... 9mm and .308 is scatter about like smarties, even in jackets (opened a shipping crate, there was a wool jacket, in the jacket, .308...creepy). hard to run out of ammo, unless you waste it

It like entering a FPS game where all you need to do if find the gun and ammo, and they are everywhere.. Sometimes it looks like Dayz whats to be Pubg with zombies, maybe it does? But that's not a survival game (sure your surviving, but you wouldn't call Mario a survival game because you don't want to die).. and i have hear some call pubg a survival game... that's like calling unreal tournament a survival game (just in pubg, you are picking up clothes as well, and have an inventory).

In my book a survival game is where you have to work at something to survive (processes). There are no ready resources (or very few), no access to easy food and water, can't make fire on a whim (lol, the drill kit, to easy, bit silly), a FPS if where you dropped into the game with guns and fight for your life. yes your trying to survive in both, but one is FPS and one is Survival.

hmm, lets brake a rule and use a real life analogy :P its not surviving out in the woods, on a camping trip, i you go down to the MacDonald for your lunch :)

 

ADDED:

Cus the subject of too much ammo is an old one, I remember making the point that low ammo would separate the poor shooters from the good shooters… to survive in an aggressive manner would mean being good with a gun and not spraying ammo… instead of what we have now, get a gun, hope you get the first shot in.

They tried to correct the ammo spraying with damage to items, missing the point completely... the killers were not interested in the items, so it didn’t matter if they ruined them… after all, there are so many of them around, you don’t need to loot a body.

The ‘point’ was then made (by the foums) that there was a lot of ammo, but that’s because we need people to test the guns and gun mechanics… this seemed to sick as an idea, but here we are, still so much ammo.

Maybe it will all balance out when they add more zombies? You use a gun, you get swarmed, and have to use a bucket load of ammo? Cus, right now, all that ammo is for PvP

Don't run at a spraying cannon :P

Edited August 29, 2018 by soods

[cirkular 178]

Well, the thing about this game for me is that it's still very open, compared to some others. Let's say that guns and ammo are not that plentiful in the game. I hope this loot economy that was one of the crucial points to this game can help us get various results on various servers. I'm all for more focus on less guns availability and more melee combat and abilities for players instead, but it's not the case in this game I'm afraid. And that's still about PVP combat and defending yourself or mugging someone. The thing why it's hair-raising for everyone with this game is because it is like that in reality. Danger is everywhere in fact. Don't forget that you are not only surviving against elements, hunger and thirst. There are the infected and the wilderness beasts. And then there are other players.

And while I understand your real life analogy with McDonalds here :D to me it's not really applicable to the game. Or this kind of reality the game theorizes on. So I'm just theorizing too here. McDonalds food can rot easily after a couple of days. Maybe they got some stocks left in the freezers that no one got yet, sure. Just in time for cold burgers and french fries, no problem. I don't see anything wrong with getting that if you are looking for food, but there is also farming. Since all that found food expires and is eventually used too. Like guns and ammo. They won't corrode that fast, depending on the environment they are left in of course. Except police stations weapons, some civilians have weapons in their homes too, not just preppers. And it's reasonable we find some scattered around the map, out of the military bases. It's sort of a cultural thing of course, depending on the part of the world you're looking at.

What I'm also trying to show here is the time span in the game vs time in reality. Which connects to these survival processes you mentioned. It all takes time. And the time we're able to spend in front of a game like this, varies from player to player. This is one of the reasons we mostly get that casual PVP player vs. someone who'd try on this serious survival effort polarization. I don't think it will be any different with all the features added and when the game is finished for release and beyond. There's got to be some rewards for your character that survives for a long time. Something to focus on while playing. Maybe online character leaderboards, or just some kind of stats which show what path you chose, additionally with ranks like survivor, raider, builder? But not visible to other players in the game itself :) only people who really know you in the game, would know.

There is this legit aspect of survival which was expected by many to be in this game. You can't really save your progress and continue where you left off with nothing happening until you come back, like in single player games. By the same token, how things stand currently, I'm skeptical about the whole base building thing, settlement if you like, within this Chernarus world. There was so much talk about persistence in a multi player environment. The problem I see with that, as mentioned is that all people have access to the servers, but in different times. When you leave the game, your base is still left there on the server. The servers are usually running 24/7. You'd literally have to play in shifts with your team mates if you want to keep it safe and if you care. I'd like to see some server options to go down when there is no one on it. Down for say 8-12 hours since the last player disconnected. That's kind of a solution to me. But still, sometimes people don't log back on for weeks. Still, to me there is no point in going that way if there is still no end with it and the game is so open like this. But at the same time if you do manage to build a settlement with clean water and food provided, defending it and keeping it would be kind of an end game, wouldn't it? Or maybe, if attacked, grab what you can and run again.

[cirkular 178]

2 hours ago, soods said:

Don't run at a spraying cannon :P

:D You just ran at them with a knife, didn't even try to talk :D still weak odds but worth a try.

[Sooden 301]

6 minutes ago, cirkular said:

:D You just ran at them with a knife, didn't even try to talk :D still weak odds but worth a try.

they started it :P

 

even if i got the first one.. the second one would have had me... if only dayz let you use corpse as human shield :)

Edited August 29, 2018 by soods

[Sooden 301]

19 minutes ago, cirkular said:

... And it's reasonable we find some scattered around the map, out of the military bases. It's sort of a cultural thing of course, depending on the part of the world you're looking at.

That made me think... cus i know very little about gun culture, being from the UK... so maybe people do have ammo about (i remember there is a country where every male gets a gun and one box of ammo). still , in my head, when they say in the live stream that its so mean years after the event, and to find powerful weapons around (automatic), that where not locked up and easy to just take... it doesn't add up in my head. just having to find a crow bar first, to get into a weapons locker, takes the game a bit more away from the 'Drop in' FPS style.

Fully get the lower end stuff, pistols, 9mm and .22 being more accessible, but just feels like there is an infinite supple.. that may be a compounded issue, as no one is picking it up? as they are going for the Aks and such?

----

As for base building, the game that probably did that well, but executed on cheap servers >< is Conan exiles... in that game you remain in the game when you log out.. for anyone to kill you (harsh).

in Dayz, i think any sort of settlement if fair game if someone finds it... Its not ideal for official servers, but private server can white list (have rules). Conan added raiding time, for 5 hours a day (Too long><) based could be attacked, boxes broken into... so just had to try and have people on at that time (has its own issues, limited server population being one, server end up full at raid times and not all can get on)

---

As for people that can play longer than others, that's really is where the survival /FPS issue come from, i think. Dayz wants to offer both player types a fun game. Something you can jump in and play and not be disadvantage if you cant put hours in, yet reward people that wanna live in dayz :P

I don't think Dayz can do both, as one makes the other pointless, maybe i will be surprised?

...and i don't get why they are still trying to do that, cus they are putting them selves in a market with battle royal games (and don't wanna be nasty, just fair, dayz ain't up there... you are half in/half out). I do think if they focus on survival, they could have a great product, but that would mean upsetting the casual Pvper.

yeah i wanna see Dayz as a pure survival game, that my interests :P but if its to be a battle royal or FPS, then that okay as well, just not my type of game. Just don't know what its trying to be (i keep saying that, don't I ?!,lol)

[cirkular 178]

13 minutes ago, soods said:

I don't think Dayz can do both, as one makes the other pointless, maybe i will be surprised?...

No, no, attacking, defending, looting... it's all still legit part of the survival. Sure, this one player who hopped on half an hour ago stumbled upon your little farm and attacked you with a baseball bat. You landed him with a shovel or you had a gun with you, doesn't matter. FPS and farming is okay to happen in one hour in real time. Surviving is a pretty wide term. As far as that automatic guns availability, it's a good idea that you can find some lockers or stashes that you need to break into. But you should probably google dayz lore a bit and see what's on there :) it's been chaos, weeks or months ago, not years I think. But technically, even now we are surviving, although feeling cosy in our homes, but this other dark aspect... is just covered with curtains. We forget about it the longer we are safe. 

'ere hahah 

 

[Sooden 301]

didn't find dates in the lore yet, but looking... still interesting reading :) 

 

Looking back over the live stream to see where i heard the numbers...stating to wonder if i imagined it was years things fell apart :P but after looking back over the video, just in case the dev team happen on this thread, i want them to know i'm not hating on the game :) Think your doing a great job, just hashing out some of my concerns here, and getting up to date with where dayz is/is heading.

(i'm impressed with things we can't even see, like how your keeping sensitive values server side, yay)

 

 

[blackberrygoo 1416]

No need to discuss dayz anymore - the scum is here , and it’s breathing fresh air into this dried out old survival genre .. let’s hope dayz kicks it into high gear to get their shit done , they’ve been working far too slowly for the past year and I think it’s due to their greed of wanting to finalize the console versions far too soon . 

[Sooden 301]

2 hours ago, blackberrygoo said:

No need to discuss dayz anymore - the scum is here , and it’s breathing fresh air into this dried out old survival genre .. let’s hope dayz kicks it into high gear to get their shit done , they’ve been working far too slowly for the past year and I think it’s due to their greed of wanting to finalize the console versions far too soon . 

tried that game, no my thing. i like atmosphere :)

Also, i wasn't happy about how the items are presented in Dayz, but the game you mentioned took a step back, it click and loot boxed, like 'state of decay'. what i wanna see is a mix of loot out in the open and 'boxes' that need a method to get into. So the first fresh spawn cant just look everything, they have no tools... also mean there is more reason to go back to a location when you have some tools, and maybe get better loot... instead of this, see 3 house are looted in a town, well i guess all of them are... and, fresh spawn runs to a military base and gets high end gun and ammo... cus it was out in the open and didn't need to brake into a locker.

 

when you just have boxes (Cabinets,draws) for loot, it no different to seeing loot on the floor, apart from you u always know here it gonna be (or could be)....''ah a Cabinet i know that a loot box, no need to look around :)''

As i went around in that game, it was like playing cratch cards... click on a box, wait for the timer and see if i got somthing, was repetative and got old fast. Sure if your into that, its you get a buzzy but not my thing.

Not dissing the game you mentioned, but its not for filling the needs dayz already does, in it basic form, and i'm waiting for the modders :)

'scum' looks cartoony to me and it has robots >< and its based on a prison island... this is where you can tell if dayz was your sort of game to start with. if the fact the new game has robots, Tv cameras, Bio implants (the metabolism read out) and a scoring system doesn't put you off... then you where in dayz for the wrong reasons. Dayz is bleak, gritty, simple (to simple sometimes), atmospheric (ooh i love what the sound team has done with weather).. i can still lose my self in the limited function we have in dayz, just walking around (it simulates that well :P)

so, even though there is a lot i wanna see fix/improved/finished in Dayz, scum is not an alliterative (at least for me).