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alphadoh

[ Feature Request] Dayz Smart Spawns

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Dayz login random spawns, or not so much random. Please read until the end before jumping outta your chair, thank you.

I'll be straight! What i propose:

There should be thousands of safe spawns scattered across the map to avoid abuses, and certainly not that spawn in the middle of an open field. These spawns will also add some immersion for the new players, indeed spawning inside a building is far more immersive than spawning in the middle of nowhere, and what would a survivor do almost naked in the middle of a forest in the first place?

To prevent metagaming this feature should be avoiding spawning players near other players, at best 500 meters away; I'll explain why later. This system will need a balance between last online coordinates and distance from others players in the network bubble for better spawn quality.

Example #1, Tisy, let's say that we only got 4 spawns around, of course, there should be far more spawns at least 50:

#1 distance from last online coordinates:  29m - distance from player1: 208m - distance from player2 - 214m - spawn quality:  30/100
#2 distance from last online coordinates: 102m - distance from player1: 329m - distance from player2 - 325m - spawn quality:  40/100
#3 distance from last online coordinates: 217m - distance from player1:   3m - distance from player2 -   7m - spawn quality:   6/100
#4 distance from last online coordinates: 392m - distance from player1: 504m - distance from player2 - 507m - spawn quality:  60/100

The algorithm will select the spawn number 4 because even if it's a little far away from the last online player spot, it's a safer place since the two alive players in the network bubble are respectively 504 and 507 meters away from the spawn, they probably are some friends playing together.

Exemple #2:

#1 distance from last online coordinates:  5m - distance from player1: 408m - distance from player2 - 607m - spawn quality:  90/100
#2 distance from last online coordinates: 109m - distance from player1: 511m - distance from player2 - 704m - spawn quality:  80/100
#3 distance from last online coordinates: 302m - distance from player1: 117m - distance from player2 - 253m - spawn quality:  20/100
#4 distance from last online coordinates: 359m - distance from player1: 457m - distance from player2 - 495m - spawn quality:  40/100

This time the algorithm will select spawn number 1 because the players is very close to where he was last online. The two alive players in the network bubble are both 408, and 607 meters away, while the second one is not much of a threat because he's far away, the first one can be, 400m is still ok aiming with a hunting scope. But that's the best available spawn among all.

Example number 3, a crowded town with very limited spawns, in reality, once again there should be far more spawns something like 200:

#1 distance from last online coordinates:    5m - distance from player1:   9m - distance from player2 -  42m - spawn quality:   2/100
#2 distance from last online coordinates:   32m - distance from player1:  13m - distance from player2 -  71m - spawn quality:   1/100
#3 distance from last online coordinates:  114m - distance from player1:  44m - distance from player2 -  69m - spawn quality:   8/100
#4 distance from last online coordinates: 1284m - distance from player1: 506m - distance from player2 - 809m - spawn quality:   1/100

On this situation the algorithm will select spawn number 3 because even if there is a lot of players close the spawn, the others options aren't better, while two of the others options expose the player to a very imminent danger such as loading screen versus high proximity looting player that may search every room for loot. The fourth option while offering good protection will confuse the player, spawning more than 500m away will move the player too far from the position he was in the first place. It might also be abused to do some random fast traveling from crowded over-looted place to an uncrowded and unlooted one.

While giving players the option in the settings to choose to have a random spawn seems to be a good idea, it's not. Indeed once again it can be abused, it must be a server feature. Giving the option on spawn to choose to spawn far away from the players is also not a good solution since it can also be abused as explained above. If the player is spawned more than 100m away, he must be somehow be notified to reduce the confusion, with something like an animation of being tired after a long walk thus without impacting the stamina.

Players should not spawn in the field of view of others players to prevent abusive sniping camp such as waiting on a spot until they get lucky. Why? Say for instance in front of a 300 meters away door where players usually spawn because of a crowded town for example electro and they most likely will spawn on that given house because its the well known nearest spawn to offer a good distance from the crowded town.

500 meters is a-ok distance because it's hard enough to aim and will most likely not be fatal shot unless it's a headshot and good luck with that. But hey, let's not babysit the players too much, Dayz is meant to be a hardcore game. Players need to use their brain if they want to survive the day. They already got a safe spawn, now that's their problem if they just leave the safe room without inspection or preparation and die right away because there was a smarter player with good aiming and thinking on top of that. They deserve to die at this point, that's the game.

This feature is really important and should share with the death, infected, and item spawns. It will reduce the frustration for players that had a problem and got disconnected from the server after an internet or game crash. It will also partially protect the careless braindead players that disconnected in the middle of the field because its 2 pm and they were too tired to find a right spot to log off. They are typically the kind of players that make bad publicity of the game because of their own mistakes, and we know there's going to be a lot of these when the beta will be available on the stable branch.

But the most important facet of this feature is obviously to prevent or at the very least make harder hoping metagaming such as logging off from a crowded defended base on server 1. Logging on low pop server 4 who shares the same hive as the server 1, get inside the completely empty and undefended base. Log off again from the low pop server 4, log back on the crowded server 1, and steal what's inside the camp before taking off, or worse just to make a rampage.

It will also prevent unlucky spawns like I've seen at the very least a dozen of time since I'm playing Dayz where you get yourself killed upon reconnecting even in the deepest unpopular area of the map where you expect to cross nobody. There is no such place in Chernarus. Also, spawning next to another player like this is an immersion breaker, and too much lookalike an arcade game.

Of course, this feature should be part of the loot economy settings and must be allowed to be configured. The spawns if they are not already might be all fused together, and have some member such as canSpawnDead, canSpawnAlive, canSpawnInfected, and canSpawnLoot.

While letting the player spawn where he was before looks like a good option, it can lead to some metagaming such as the freezing infected when there was no one around. At some point, players will figure it out. For that reason, random spawns must happen every time, and not only when there is a player in the surroundings to avoid the following scenarion: "Oh! I didn't spawn where I've logged off. There must be a player around!". That way players get an Intel the other player have not unless they are relogging.

Last things; This feature will give a little more sense to the compass and the GPS for those who aren't yet familiar with the map because they will often be "a little" confused by the spawn they had if it's not close from where they were before.

This is definitely needed in both softcore and hardcore before the game hits the 1.0.

Edited by alphadoh

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How about no spawns inside a perimeter around airfields and mil camps (and add "bases"). If you log out inside those perimeters you get a random spawn when you log in. This has been discussed (a lot) - re server hopping etc. It was a very popular topic last year. 

.. bases .. Anyone see the obvious spawning arguments that will be coming up?

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13 hours ago, alphadoh said:

It will also prevent unlucky spawns like I've seen at the very least a dozen of time since I'm playing Dayz where you get yourself killed upon reconnecting even in the deepest unpopular area of the map where you expect to cross nobody. There is no such place in Chernarus. Also, spawning next to another player like this is an immersion breaker, and too much lookalike an arcade game.

Honestly can't remember it happening. Except when playing in a group of course.

Just don't logout in populated areas or in towns even. Find a remote bush and log out there.

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Most spawn points are near the coast because one of the only bits of lore from the early days is that we washed ashore after a shipwreck.

I'm not sure what the percent of spawns near shore to inland is now but this is one of the reasons we have some of the spawn points we have currently.

Spawning into a place and knowing you are 100% safe does not fit with the DayZ experience as I know it either.

While your idea certainly holds some merit and was well presented, I do not believe this is something DayZ vanilla will implement.

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On 8/12/2018 at 9:48 PM, pilgrim* said:

How about no spawns inside a perimeter around airfields and mil camps (and add "bases"). If you log out inside those perimeters you get a random spawn when you log in. This has been discussed (a lot) - re server hopping etc. It was a very popular topic last year. 

.. bases .. Anyone see the obvious spawning arguments that will be coming up?

Yes, but what will you do of these metagaming scenarios:

  • The player has done looting the whole military base, and went from gearless to rambo, but hasn't the courage to leave his building, and walk his way out of the base whether because the server is full, or just because he recently heard some shot in the distance and think he'll not make it alive?
  • The player is cornered in a building, and shit is about to hit the fan because there are some players outside ready to swat the whole place. Well the player can try to combat log and spawn safely outside the military base.
  • Same scenario as above, shit is about to happen, but this time there are two players looting dead body with people ready to do some special forces entrance. player one get all the possible gear he can carry, and has a full backpack in its hands, log off while the player two cover him almost naked, once player one is offline and safe, then player one logs off too.

But you rose another problem, and the only good solution i see would be to significantly raise the necessary amount of time to log off (vicinityPlayersAmt * 20) while also adding some sound notification such as your character zipping open a sleeping bag before laying on the ground. But this sleeping bag sound might at some point also be gamed to make people believe you are about to log off and force them to engage. This sound must be linked to an uncancelable animation, such as your character lying on the ground.

On 8/13/2018 at 8:55 AM, benedictus said:

Honestly can't remember it happening. Except when playing in a group of course.

Just don't logout in populated areas or in towns even. Find a remote bush and log out there.

It's must admit it, you are absolutely right. It no longer happens to me, but i had to learn to log off away from the loots the hard way. Now that's completly normal, and this is what actually makes Dayz great, learning from your mistakes, and improving until you become a survival prepper bushcraft master. But that's not about you or me, because while i think if i died is because i did wrong, not everybody is going to think that way.

On 8/13/2018 at 7:35 PM, ☣BioHaze☣ said:

Most spawn points are near the coast because one of the only bits of lore from the early days is that we washed ashore after a shipwreck.

I'm not sure what the percent of spawns near shore to inland is now but this is one of the reasons we have some of the spawn points we have currently.

Spawning into a place and knowing you are 100% safe does not fit with the DayZ experience as I know it either.

While your idea certainly holds some merit and was well presented, I do not believe this is something DayZ vanilla will implement.

I'm afraid my friend you misunderstood me, i was not talking about re-spawning after death, but spawning upon reconnecting on a server while being alive and well.

Edited by alphadoh

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21 minutes ago, alphadoh said:

 

I'm afraid my friend you misunderstood me, i was not talking about re-spawning after death, but spawning upon reconnecting on a server while being alive and well.

I assumed you meant both initial spawn point and re-log spawn point, my bad.

So yeah, as was stated, logging in a secluded random bush or tree solves much of this for me.

One time I was running South through the far North woods and a character spawned in right in front of me, so you're never truly 100% safe. Lucky for that guy, I decided to talk to him as he spawned in, something like, "Hey buddy, logging in for the day? Lucky for you I don't KoS! Have a good one!".

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On 8/14/2018 at 2:15 PM, alphadoh said:

Yes, but what will you do in these metagaming scenarios:

 ..//..

For a couple of years or MORE there was a large beef, and dislike, about players who "hopped" from server to server - eg from one airfield control tower to the next, looting, logging out, logging in to another server same location, looting, logging out.. etc..  There was a LOT of discussion about this and about possible solutions (apart from the solution of private servers). You will find SEVERAL (many?) THREADS about this..

ONE of various solutions PROPOSED was having a no-spawn zone around high loot places.. either (1) If you spawn OUT inside that zone you will random-spawn when you log back into any server.. or (2) You CANNOT spawn IN or log OUT out,  inside that zone, you have to leave the zone or die, to be able to leave the game..  either way,  you will random spawn (alive or dead) when you log in again to any server..  The advantage of the NO spawn NO logout zone would be that if you were cornered in a high risk area it MUST be a fight to the death, or surrender.. you can't log your way out of it.

There were plenty of objections to those ideas  - eg.; "suppose my mum calls me and I have to leave the game immediately while I'm looting a barracks?" - AND more serious player objections too... plenty of argument. 

To solve (mitigate) the "logging-out-to-escape" problem, BI introduced the log out pause.. after you log out your avatar remains in place for 60 seconds (it stands up, after you log out).. to give the "enemy" a fair chance to shoot you where you stand, or to guess that you have logged out and left your 'body' in the building where they can find it ..  this also prevents you from logging out in mid fight, logging in to another server and changing position, and logging back to the first server behind your enemy, to gain yourself an unfair advantage.

For some reason the "server hoppers"  polemic has gone away quite a lot.. though hopping still goes on enormously. There are teams that do this systematically as well as individuals.  It used to be very common, disliked,  and so there was a lot of discussion (if you look back) about what to do about it - that has now mainly faded away. "metagaming" (covering everything you mention) doesnt seem to raise much discussion these days.

Myself - I like the idea of having some (high loot) areas where you can not log out (if you log out you die) - so that any combat would be 100% realistic and to the death - if a team is pinned down in a barracks or an airfield building they can't log out and leave 1 member to take his chances protecting his mates' avatars until they despawn (taking all his main gear with them), then get killed and meet them on the next server to get his stuff back.  Some areas around high loot places IMO should be to the death, you can't log in there,  and if you log out there you die (- its simple, die when you log out obviously means you cant log back in there, you random spawn)  - No alternatives, you live you die, or you negotiate.. end of story.

To me - that would be fun, much fairer, more exciting, and realistic.. and anyone who goes into those areas knows that the consequences of their actions are absolute. I think that would be an extra kick.

*

There is no "final solution" to metagaming.. there are ways of making the game more fun or less fun to "straight" players.; and there are always methods to twist the rules (not even hacks or exploits, just deliberate 'misuse' of how the game was intended to play). Most players know what the "metagaming" twists are, and have come across them many times, but some players use the game that way deliberately and intentionally. This is a fact of life.

All the metagaming moves you mention - and others - are DAILY common practice in DayZ and have ALWAYS BEEN .. I believe many players don't like it, 'some others' rely on it and play those 'metagames' systematically. Each player or group will state they are justified in playing whatever way they play.

*

This thread brought the arguments back to memory  (they were intense) because NOW we SHALL face the same problem with BASES.. If a well-armed team starts breaking into your base, can you take a minute to log out, and move through another server to log back in, on a roof down the road with your sniper rifle?
Can you log in and out of "your own" base at all?
Because, if you CAN - what makes it "your base"?  - does it "belong" to ONE person even though it was built by 5 people?  .. For all 5 to log in and out you need an "out-of-gameplay" list? - OR an in-game token such as a key or ID tag in game?  (and how is that replicated?)  AND If you have one of those -  can an enemy loot it off your dead body, and then HE can log in and out from inside your base??  (as well as unlock the entry)

OR (the alternative) can NOBODY log in or out from inside a base.. ? Or can Anybody log in inside the base just by standing in the right place on another server, and changing servers?  ..

Which is the same "exclusion zone" problem that was being discussed 3 years back. And many suggestions were put forward.

Only THIS time it is made more complicated because the "zone" has to work for some people but not for others. and at what moment does this collection of objects become a "base" located on only one server, and with special logging in/out rules applied to it.; and if it is attacked - or taken over (if a base can be taken over.. hmm? how?) Or if it is partly destroyed.;at what point does it STOP being "a base" ??  Or is it only a base while it is occupied, so if you leave it for a month it's not "your" base anymore, anyone can claim it to OWN (whatever that means)  or it vanishes..?

A simple and TOTALLY unrealistic solution - which would be programmable without a MAJOR rework -  you could use the << Concrete Tent Theory>>     = Whoever puts up the tent OWNS it, it is indestructible,  and only they can get in or out of it. 

[ ps Have you ever tried putting up a tent and then spawning into it from another server, by standing in the right place on the other server? .. Try it. ]

So what makes "a base" specially a base in the first place?  - what is the definition of "a base" ? 

- Give me the logical programmable definition;
-  and how that works in the gameplay.

*

I'm a cynic - From the mockups of bases I've seen around (however likely or unlikely) ..  the REAL LIFE answer would be to wait until there were no players around and then climb in, or drive a truck into the gates, or cut a hole in the wire, OBVIOUSLY ..whatever.    But the base fans are definitely TOTALLY against such realism. They want DayZ to be a "Build A Base Capture The Flag" kind of game.. which it was from the start DESIGNED NOT TO BE.

<people who fantasise about 'Base-Games' must realize that Bases HAVE TO lead to mortars, rocket launchers & heavy machine guns> 
"Is that so Mr Spock?,"
"Certainly, Captain"

*

Boarding up windows on a house and locking/blocking the door would be ok (that would give your avatar 60 seconds to get clear when a bad outsider  started on the woodwork with an axe or a chainsaw, right? or you might decide to stay and shoot your pump gun at the first hole he makes).. but any kind of 'base' safety or invulnerability or ownership while you're not even around.. seems ..er.. "really silly" to me. 

And in the old DayZ when zombies were gradually attracted to human activity (which was reasonable, I thought) - you base would soon have a crowd of zombies standing around it being impatient for you to come out. That seems pretty logical too. No zombies means nobody's home.   

xxp

 

Edited by pilgrim*
~ same here, I didn't read all of it either.. next !
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