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Evilsausage

This is geting silly

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On 6/8/2018 at 1:37 PM, Evilsausage said:

So it's summer now... Nearly six months has passed since The beta was supposed to be released. And im guessing it was intended to be released even earlier then that? I mean, I don't think anyone expected  Dayz to not be in beta in june 2018.. They've had many, many changes to the timeline. 

Yes there is alot of stuff getting reworked... Still it just seems like nothing in this development is going smooth. Which is what most devs go through when making something this complicated (map size, online, so many things a player can do)

I myself work in the game industry as a 3d artist. We rely on money from a publisher, we have deadlines and if we fail to deliver... We get no funding and The company is pretty much fucked. Nice facts about your self and your job.. but how is that important to us the reader?

If Dayz would have gone the same development route. Dayz would have been dead and burried a long time ago. It was a mod 6 years ago. Then it was turned into a standalone. Then it was decided to turn it into a console playable game. Yet, its not dead yet. 

I know Dayz is very complex...but there must be something more besides that. What are you even saying here?

With that said... I'm still looking forward to Dayz. But my relationship to Dayz is starting to remind a bit of abusive partner that keeps promising things will get better... Ok.. so you have issues with dayz. Thanks for sharing with us all. 

 

Since i played DayZ mod I have:

Wait, what is your point? This post is getting silly. :|

 

 

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5 hours ago, Kirov (DayZ) said:

you have to work at BI in order to express your opinion about BI

This is not what I meant.

I meant you would have to be privy to all mitigating factors to know why things have gone this way and for as long as they have, whether you worked there or not. Every personal and technical environment is different.

Personally, I'm disappointed by some features being removed or slated for post 1.0. I'm disappointed by a lot of things that were announced in the last few years and never spoke of again. And yes I was disappointed by 7 months without updates.

BUT I also know that 1.0 will bring modding and the opportunity for all of you professional and amateur coders to add in things some of us still want.

A constant drone of complaining posts by mostly ignorant contributors isn't constructive, enlightening, or interesting. It just makes the more invested people become salty and disaffected towards the next wave of complaint threads that invariably follows a popular patch.

Edited by ☣BioHaze☣
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20 hours ago, ☣BioHaze☣ said:

He must have really "burried" his head in those books.

Yes, inattention to spelling will undermine the credibility of your statement in my eyes.

I guess he worries more about errors in code than using proper English.

Also, I don't care if you're the miracle immaculately conceived love child of Shigeru Miyamoto and David cage, if you haven't worked directly on DayZ at Bohemia, you can't possibly know what's effected the progress of DayZ entirely.

 

English isn’t my main language and i’m not really writing a report. It’s a simple forum post.

Studying media mostly involves practical work. Like editing, filming etc…
I should also point out that 3D artists job isn’t writing code. That's what a so called programmer does.

Never claimed that I knew exactly what is causing the delays. I’m just stating that the development has no doubt had bumpy ride. And no that's not even up for debate. Anyone except for a few handful hardcore fans would agree on this.

https://variety.com/2018/gaming/news/bohemia-xbox-exclusive-1202837394/

The fact that the studio is now working on a completely new game, before DayZ is even close to being done is also troubling. DayZ mod might have been groundbreaking back in 2012. But I think the devs have realized they have kinda missed that opportunity now.
DayZ reputation isn’t all that great anymore, they have already received most of the money they can get back when DayZ was fresh. Odds that they will strike gold and get large amount of new fans to pay for the game is unlikely. I really hope it happens tho...But I think they know that they need a more safe backup plan.
Sadly that will mean even less focus on DayZ. Anyway this is just pure speculations...Maybe it has no impact on DayZs development. But who knows?
 

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lol spelling nazis, all that was missing to really make this board perfect.

Yes, its been a long time. Way longer then any reasonable person would accept. But no reasonable people are left on these forums . 

But I enjoy it, and if you play on the current stress test client and are not amazed at what they are getting done NOW.  Then you are kind of jaded.

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" “DayZ” is an open-world survival game that’s currently in the early-access alpha phase on Steam."

Imagine if the presser said " “DayZ” is an open-world survival game that’s been in the early-access alpha phase on Steam for five years."

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33 minutes ago, Evilsausage said:

The fact that the studio is now working on a completely new game, before DayZ is even close to being done is also troubling. DayZ mod might have been groundbreaking back in 2012. But I think the devs have realized they have kinda missed that opportunity now.
DayZ reputation isn’t all that great anymore, they have already received most of the money they can get back when DayZ was fresh. Odds that they will strike gold and get large amount of new fans to pay for the game is unlikely. I really hope it happens tho...But I think they know that they need a more safe backup plan.
Sadly that will mean even less focus on DayZ. Anyway this is just pure speculations...Maybe it has no impact on DayZs development. But who knows?
 

It's not realistic for the entire staff to be working on the problem that bottlenecks the development right now.  Do you think the 3D artists in the branch studio should be working on network solutions/bugfixing?  That makes no sense.  Instead of having them sit there and do nothing productive, they have them work on other assets.  They can't have their employees get paid for doing nothing and they can't afford to just let them go because there's nothing DayZ SA related to do this week.  It's a small business.

Related, the company has decided to extend development time because they wanted a better engine.  Odds are that they'll use that engine with future projects and strike their gold there.  They'll be able to make money by doing nothing!  Sell the technology to other companies!

Honestly, if you work for a small gaming company, you should know this.

 

And to what Biohaze said,  it's true.  Higher education institutions require literature and communication courses for a reason.  Putting forth your ideas properly is the way to go.  If you write like a middle school kid, your ideas will be accepted as if they were from a middle school kid.  Especially in a public forum.

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4 hours ago, Evilsausage said:

The fact that the studio is now working on a completely new game, before DayZ is even close to being done is also troubling.

LOL, which one?  Take on Mars, Ylands, ARMA 4, Vigor?  It's all pretty irrelevant to DayZ production, aside from the little bit about ARMA 4 needing this engine working and polished before they can get that game running at full capacity.  Hell, the way they have changed the approach and redesigned the new engine for DayZ in the past couple years, it wouldn't surprise me if ARMA 4 ran on yet another iteration of the Enfusion engine.

8 hours ago, scriptfactory said:

"Ich hoffe dass du nicht böse wirst wenn ich dich töte"

I'm a little rusty.  Does this mean "I hope you aren't evil if I kill you?" Whatever this little cultural tidbit is, it flew completely over me head.

Now back on Topic:  Gooble gobble, gooble gobble.

But seriously, those of us who have stuck with it the past two years especially, have a pretty good understanding of what is going on and why.  All of these stress tests are incrementally adding features, as well as (quite recently) pushing the max player cap upwards.  I'm not sure if the stress tests will even stop once Experimental branches are running steadily up to the 1.0 release.  My best guess, is that once they have the bulk of the PVE interaction systems and netcode workable for the targeted 100 players per server, they will use the stress tests to add new weapons and related animations and root out major issues before pushing those builds to experimental permanently.

Again, for those of us who have been participating over the last year especially, it is pretty apparent what has been happening these past few weeks.  They have gotten to a point where the most critical and permanent underlying systems are sufficient for what they plan to do through 1.0 and shortly beyond.

To use yet another residential construction analogy:
Once they started running stress tests, that meant that the foundations have been set and determined to be workable.  We can think of some of the as yet absent weapons and crafting features as doors and windows; and hopefully they have already installed the appropriate headers.
The only thing I am worried about, is that the implementation of vehicles may be akin to a 7,000 gallon saltwater fish tank.  I REALLY hope they have thought ahead and put a proper footing under this.  The rest of it, I am fairly confident can be made to look and work perfectly with some shims and furring.

But yes, this whole process has been somewhat silly since the late .5x iterations, when they realized what needed to happen to get this built right.  One thing to remember, is that this is a remodel job, not new construction; and remodels are always fucked up and require adaptations on the fly to make things right.

Edited by emuthreat
comma, Vigor
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4 hours ago, PongoZ said:

Yes, its been a long time. Way longer then any reasonable person would accept. But no reasonable people are left on these forums .

This is my favorite quote on DayZ forum '18.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I do believe there will be many new players joining DayZ after 1.0, enough to make DayZ profitable once again. There may also be millions of console owners who have never heard of DayZ who buy the game once it is ported over and are blissfully unaware of the development process or any of the controversy surrounding it.

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@Kirov (DayZ)

I get all that, sure. Not that I can add anything or really answer to your post. I'd just continue with my rant and finish hopefully :D

People can complain here, on Twitter, Youtube, reddit, you name it, and also give '1 stars' or 'not-recommended' on Steam. Dayz early access got and still gets all of that.

I'm not talking about complaining or not. It's the general tone of the complaints which are mostly speculations in posts and youtube videos that through different levels of creativity, self-promotion, self-entitlement and weak arguments are considered fun and even valid. This is an echo of the gaming community, and sadly not just of that area of life. I'd never announce anything to gamers until I'm sure I'm done with the bugs and the release is really right around the corner. This is early access and it could be a disaster, but at the same time you get that valuable feedback from actual players, not regular game testers, who want to get involved with the development in this way. On one hand, you get that half of the regular price from those, on the other hand you have to deal with the others who feel like now they've been scammed and never posted on the feedback. But we all rushed to get it at half a price anyway. And what's worse, you get this even from other game developers who bought the early access game. It's kind of discouraging to put yourself in this kind of environment. For sure, my hat off to bravery of BI and these devs for going through this. 

The OP has that one point - it takes so long. Since the early access to nowadays, Dayz got to a sort of a remaster or even towards 2.0, without even being fully released which wasn't expected. I get the tone of the anxious players saying basically "quit jerking off and release it already". Personally, I couldn't care less for the time it took so far. In 2012, 2013 and 2014 I wasn't there. I didn't know about Arma 2, the mod and the game. I understand the negatives of impatience, but I won't support developing it further into bashing. Since I got into early access, I had a lot of fun playing it with buddies or alone despite it obiviously stated that it has bugs and features to be resolved yet. We're casual enough. I don't know what I'm doing wrong :D

As I wrote, in the end it all comes to "we want to play the finished game so bad ASAP".

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On 6/8/2018 at 10:37 PM, Evilsausage said:

..//..

I have worked in a game company for 1 year. Optimized two games for switch and now im working on a new game. Our  new game is set to be released in less then 2 years. I Wonder if we will be done before Dayz is 1.0...

..//..

I wonder of any of your games will be any good ?

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i think anyone who wishes to have a bit of a moan about this game has the right to do so after waiting so long for something decent to be made, dunno why people are so passionate about defending a clearly bungled development. I havent whinged over the years because im not actually that bothered about it now. any excitement i had has dwindled years ago but ill give it a proper go when they say its reached a point where they're happy with the features and stability. annoys me though when people jump up to defend the dayz fiasco just because someone has the audacity to criticise. Im sure some of you are in some cult blindly worshipping the devs.... 

you wonder if his games will be good? he hasnt been paid millions though im guessing...

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12 hours ago, cirkular said:

As I wrote, in the end it all comes to "we want to play the finished game so bad ASAP".

Yeah, this is a note I could agree to wrap it up with.

And don't worry about the complaints, I'm sure they'll stop soon enough. In fact, I'm sensing their end is "just around the corner". You might even say that "it's weeks, not months".

 

OK, I'm sorry, that was so cheap. ;P

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1 hour ago, pilgrim* said:

I wonder of any of your games will be any good ?

This is not the kind of jabs which show the world how good our reasoning is.

Judging just from this topic, we can deduce that DayZ development is clearly stellar and beyond reproach because the OP made a typo, wrote a short bio and we have no idea how his games will pan out.

 

Stay classy, Chernarus.

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55 minutes ago, s1dz said:

i think anyone who wishes to have a bit of a moan about this game has the right to do so after waiting so long for something decent to be made, dunno why people are so passionate about defending a clearly bungled development. I havent whinged over the years because im not actually that bothered about it now. any excitement i had has dwindled years ago but ill give it a proper go when they say its reached a point where they're happy with the features and stability. annoys me though when people jump up to defend the dayz fiasco just because someone has the audacity to criticise. Im sure some of you are in some cult blindly worshipping the devs.... 

you wonder if his games will be good? he hasnt been paid millions though im guessing...

When I play DayZ I don't even notice the version number - sorry. I don't care, I just go in there.  I guess "finished" is when nothing changes anymore and then everyone goes finds a new game to play? (I'm a bit slow on this version thing.. ).

WHAT was "bungled" ? (nah... its ok, I think that's been argued over since the DayZ Mod came out)  Hey, you like the game or you don't, (that's been true any day you ever played, right?) - AND all games have a lifetime, (unless you still play Pong or Zelda?) - If this was a PERFECT GAME (in YOUR mind) would you play it for 15 years, 40 years, or 75 years?  Would you give up your job and will DayZ still be around next century? This profound philosophical stuff is SOOooo Important, right? - but "like"/"don't like" covers most of it. .. doesn't it.

AND this is not a huge company, but they ARE sincere - that should NOT be taken as a weakness, especially these days. Maybe you need the SONY spirit?  Or they do?

And IS IT NOT a "decent" game ? - or is it 97% crap or is it 3% crap, and 97% good... what percentage makes it "decent"..? did you get your VALUE out of it yet? (game lifetime = how many hours you played so far?)

hmm - in general, about "decent" VALUE & media fun  - How much did Disney spend on "Solo" and how "bungled" was that? - Le's not claim it was  GREAT film BECAUSE it was totally finished REALLY FAST and that's what we should be fighting for ?? - and it ONLY cost a little over $250 million to MAKE... so there are TWO REALLY GREAT things about Disney that Bohemia aren't aiming for. - Disney have the right attitude, maybe?

How SAD that doesn't make me, that Bohemia are not SONY.  You'd be amazed.

Edited by pilgrim*
~
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2 hours ago, s1dz said:

any excitement i had has dwindled years ago but ill give it a proper go when they say its reached a point where they're happy with the features and stability.

This is a healthy attitude, especially if you have many hundreds of hours into the game long before it was near complete.

2 hours ago, s1dz said:

annoys me though when people jump up to defend the dayz fiasco just because someone has the audacity to criticise. Im sure some of you are in some cult blindly worshipping the devs.... 

And some of us have a greater perspective of the dev process.

This is a forum I have personally frequented for 6 years now, why shouldn't I become annoyed with the whining threads? There are so many factors that people forget to take into account when judging how this project has been handled that half baked theories and ignorant vitriol became the norm for the majority of the fly by night fans who, make an account on the forum, create a single thread trashing the development team, and then leave, and never post again. A revolving door of faceless naysayers.... Bashing DayZ again? Boy, that's a new one! Ciao!

With most of these people it's the same thing, something invariably comes along that changed how they have to play, or some bug in the Alpha was the straw that broke the camels back, and they come onto here and they want their money back after 100's of hours of play. Maybe they saw a streamer PvP and became enamored with their new favorite "shooter" and spent hundreds of hours playing but cannot be bothered to, read up a little, follow the status reports, constructively contribute to the discussion around the game, or contribute to testing. They were far too busy trying to exploit the current iteration to go PvP with friends to bother thinking about the inevitable design features which will force more survival tactics, or the fact that they were basically playing on buggy Frankenstein legacy tech.

This forum is a survival game unto itself. I have seen MANY members meltdown or simply give up and leave DayZ. People who I thought were passionate and dedicated just broke down by the protracted development process. 7 months without a patch nearly made me tap out as well. I will try my best to stick it out, because I have faith in the original survival horror MMO, the game that spawned many copy cats and drove a wave of games for the survival genre, and not because I have blind devotion for the devs.

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3 hours ago, s1dz said:

annoys me though when people jump up to defend the dayz fiasco just because someone has the audacity to criticise

DayZ is either completely unknown to some people, or very well-known as the definitive example of an early access game with development delays and changes of plans.  People complain either out of a complete lack of research, or because they just like to bitch about stuff.

Criticizing DayZ for taking too long is like telling a tall person that they are tall, or remarking on how wet it was in that swimming pool, or needing to put labels on coffee to warn people that it is hot.  It's just a bit redundant and unnecessary at this point, isn't it?
Would you go on vacation to the ocean and complain of the smell?  Would you go back again and have the same complaint?  Would you buy a house there and then go complain to the local council that they need to do something about it?

Complain about the new control scheme, complain about the HUD, complain about the stunning knockback from zombie attacks.  Complain about anything but the fucking timeline, because we all are extremely well-aware of that facet of development by now.

Do you know who goes to a restaurant and sits there for two hours waiting for a table, watching as tables each sit for over an hour waiting to get their meals, and when the server is finally bringing their order from the kitchen, loudly proclaims to everyone that this is the slowest restaurant ever?
Do you know who does that?  A person who is both dumb, and obnoxious, that's who.

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On 2018-06-12 at 1:46 AM, Parazight said:

It's not realistic for the entire staff to be working on the problem that bottlenecks the development right now.  Do you think the 3D artists in the branch studio should be working on network solutions/bugfixing?  That makes no sense.  Instead of having them sit there and do nothing productive, they have them work on other assets.  They can't have their employees get paid for doing nothing and they can't afford to just let them go because there's nothing DayZ SA related to do this week.  It's a small business.

Related, the company has decided to extend development time because they wanted a better engine.  Odds are that they'll use that engine with future projects and strike their gold there.  They'll be able to make money by doing nothing!  Sell the technology to other companies!

Honestly, if you work for a small gaming company, you should know this.

 

And to what Biohaze said,  it's true.  Higher education institutions require literature and communication courses for a reason.  Putting forth your ideas properly is the way to go.  If you write like a middle school kid, your ideas will be accepted as if they were from a middle school kid.  Especially in a public forum.

That is true, Many times certain parts of the crew needs to move over to something else if they have nothing more to contribute to the project.

But I also know that having multiple projects can have an impact. I have no idea how BIS structure is, maybe the new project has a new crew so it won't have any negative effect on DayZs development.

However I know that many times, especially the most talented programmers are needed a bit here and there.
The studio i’m working on is tiny and is just beginning to grow. But our new project, which we get funding for is top priority. Patching and implementing DLCs for older games is something our programmers only do when they can.
The new project under Microsoft that BIS have is gonna be of  a higher priority with more set deadlines.
Considering all the problems DayZ has had so far, I don’t think its that odd to be at least a little concerned about this.

Tho the upcoming project is in Unreal Engine. I’m sure the engine could be attractive for some games. But more and more companies is going over to Unreal, Lumberyard or Unity, mostly because it's so easy to work with and has a lot of documentation.
Less known Inhouse engines are less likely to be sought after by other companies.
 



No Higher education courses doesn’t automatically mean a better education.
I live in Sweden. For such a small country we are considered one of the leading countries in the game industry.
In the education system we have the College game schools and the Vocational Education schools for games.
The College schools which is usually 4 years long, unlike my Vocational Education which in my case was 2 years.
Still only about 40-50% of the graduating game students from the Collage Schools get jobs afterwards while my school has +80%. In my class 87% of the people worked in the game industry 6 months after graduating.
The reason is that Collage Schools fuck around and waste a lot of times on writing papers, doing analysis etc… While our school actually focus on practical stuff you need to know.
Learning the most useful programs, working in groups on small game projects and having teachers that has worked in the game industry reviewing your stuff.

The top 3 schools for Game development in Sweden are all Vocational Education schools. The leading one got quite recently listed as the 2nd best game design and development school in the world.
 

3 hours ago, emuthreat said:

DayZ is either completely unknown to some people, or very well-known as the definitive example of an early access game with development delays and changes of plans.  People complain either out of a complete lack of research, or because they just like to bitch about stuff.

Criticizing DayZ for taking too long is like telling a tall person that they are tall, or remarking on how wet it was in that swimming pool, or needing to put labels on coffee to warn people that it is hot.  It's just a bit redundant and unnecessary at this point, isn't it?
Would you go on vacation to the ocean and complain of the smell?  Would you go back again and have the same complaint?  Would you buy a house there and then go complain to the local council that they need to do something about it?

Complain about the new control scheme, complain about the HUD, complain about the stunning knockback from zombie attacks.  Complain about anything but the fucking timeline, because we all are extremely well-aware of that facet of development by now.

Do you know who goes to a restaurant and sits there for two hours waiting for a table, watching as tables each sit for over an hour waiting to get their meals, and when the server is finally bringing their order from the kitchen, loudly proclaims to everyone that this is the slowest restaurant ever?
Do you know who does that?  A person who is both dumb, and obnoxious, that's who.

That's not really the same thing...

By your logic a swimming pool will always be wet and the DayZ development will always be problematic because it has been so before. As if it's a certainty it cannot possible change for the better.  I like to believe that it can, 0.63 looks promising afterall…
But I don’t think its that odd people get a little bit frustrated and complain when stuff just keeps getting delayed. If it gets frustrating for you that people post these threads, then you picked the wrong game forum to sit on.
If you think your swimming pool example was right, then you can apply it to yourself. Complaining that there are people complaining on a DayZ forum is like complaining water is wet.

Edited by Evilsausage
minor tweeks

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3 hours ago, Evilsausage said:

That's not really the same thing...

By your logic a swimming pool will always be wet and the DayZ development will always be problematic because it has been so before. As if it's a certainty it cannot possible change for the better.  I like to believe that it can, 0.63 looks promising afterall…
But I don’t think its that odd people get a little bit frustrated and complain when stuff just keeps getting delayed. If it gets frustrating for you that people post these threads, then you picked the wrong game forum to sit on.
If you think your swimming pool example was right, then you can apply it to yourself. Complaining that there are people complaining on a DayZ forum is like complaining water is wet.

I just mean that it is what it is.  DayZ has had many delays, but it is now at the point of delivery of all the hard work they have been doing.  Stress test assets are incomplete, but are being added to on a weekly schedule.  I can bet safely, that there will be delays in implementation of weapon animations in the future; perhaps even after we see 100 player server populations, they will still have to delay patches awaiting animations for more exotic weapons.  None of this will be a surprise.  All of the information to make these inferences is available in the last years worth of status reports.

So yes, in a way, we all know that DayZ development is a special type of project, with delays to be expected up until the last push to .63 experimental to 1.0 and beyond.  So continuing to complain about aspects of the development that are well-known and very likely to continue just seems a bit misplaced.

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On 6/12/2018 at 3:28 AM, emuthreat said:

I'm a little rusty.  Does this mean "I hope you aren't evil if I kill you?" Whatever this little cultural tidbit is, it flew completely over me head.

"I hope you don't get mad if I kill you." The joke is that "wirst" is really close to "wurst" which means "sausage".

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The title allready tells "DayZ development isn't fast enough for me"

there are HUNDREDS of posts like this on the forums, use the search feature next time, at this point it's just spam

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there are hundreds of posts like this yet everyone creating them is wrong apparently.... love all the misplaced analogies on these boards and people relying on the odd spelling or grammar mistake for ammunition. Im not a dayz hater,  I just feel that people have the right to their own opinions and to debate with others about them.

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14 minutes ago, s1dz said:

there are hundreds of posts like this yet everyone creating them is wrong apparently.... love all the misplaced analogies on these boards and people relying on the odd spelling or grammar mistake for ammunition. Im not a dayz hater,  I just feel that people have the right to their own opinions and to debate with others about them.

Wrong or not really isn't the point, the thing is that they accomplish absolutely nothing but arguments. ironically enough what a lot of them are actually made for.
It's not like the devs don't know a lot of people have lost their patience and are upset. Just sitting there thinking, "we could do some work today, but nah not enough angry forum rants, lets go to the beach".

So while not intended, silly is indeed the right word for the entire thread.

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2 hours ago, ZomboWTF said:

The title allready tells "DayZ development isn't fast enough for me"

there are HUNDREDS of posts like this on the forums, use the search feature next time, at this point it's just spam

Yep. Forum is pretty much an echo chamber at this point. Only really come on here now to look at the changelogs. Sad times.

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Welcome to the internet in the 21st century gentlemen!  Forums were created to talk about things! Deal!

 

5 hours ago, s1dz said:

there are hundreds of posts like this yet everyone creating them is wrong apparently.... love all the misplaced analogies on these boards and people relying on the odd spelling or grammar mistake for ammunition. Im not a dayz hater,  I just feel that people have the right to their own opinions and to debate with others about them.

What debate?  It's fine to critique something, but that's not happening.  It's just whining without backing up your statements.  Debate infers using facts, evidence and logic to back up the stance you take on an issue.  All to often, it's the equivalent of saying "hey, you have an ugly baby" and then getting upset when people call you out on your asshattery.  If you have the right to complain, then I have the right to explain to you why your posts sucks.

If you're going to engage in forum-pvp then at least stop shooting blanks.  Stop trying to shoot people with subjective hyperbole and whining about the game while not providing any constructive feedback whatsoever.

 

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13 hours ago, Evilsausage said:

The reason is that Collage Schools fuck around and waste a lot of times on writing papers, doing analysis etc… While our school actually focus on practical stuff you need to know.

lolwut.  Well, I guess my kids wont be going to school in Sweden then.  

Effective communication and analysis is considered practical in many parts of the world.

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