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Solopopo

Soft Skills

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58 minutes ago, emuthreat said:

The current system is just a disappointment.  It arbitrarily divides all skills into two categories, and forces one to choose.  

...

There are lots of possibilities, so it's just very curious why they chose to go in this direction with it.

What a great reason to make another character, eh?

One for dying a lot.  One or two for crafting.  Think of how much more you have to play the game now. :P

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3 hours ago, GaryWalnuts said:

 imo seeing progression would be an immersion breaker. 

I'm pretty sure all the status indicators are just for the stress test, at least hoping they are.  

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23 hours ago, Guy Smiley said:

I'm pretty sure all the status indicators are just for the stress test, at least hoping they are.  

It looks to me like it's part of their new console-friendly UI design...

 

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It's a step in the right direction definitely. With how long it took you to max out the skill I reckon it will make people take a second thought on how much they value the time they put into their character. I do agree that a one second difference is a little lame, but I'm sure all of this will change in the future.

I like how long it takes, but I don't like the reward.

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On 5/26/2018 at 9:19 PM, emuthreat said:

And here is my suggestion to make it more meaningful:

Why not add a proper skill advancement system, but keep it entirely behind the scenes?  No need to see the progress, and no need to focus on grinding.

Just keep the values hidden except for observable results, and make the benefits increase along a f(x)=√x function with an arbitrarily balanced scale to determine the practical maximums.  This would make a steep climb to get to the middle ground, and cause decreased gains after the average maximum to the point of irrelevance.  The tangent slope of the function could be used as a rough percentage scale of completion, with a slope of 1/100 generally understood to be the maximum practical point of mastery.  Each action within the relevant categories could generate an "X" value of experience, and the "Y" value would be the proficiency.  A player would have to apply or 100 bandages, salines, blood bags, morphines, epi-pens, splints, antibiotics, charcoal tabs, or vitamins to effectively maximise their medical competency.  But general class competency would only generate a 50% efficacy at a new task under that class.

Each specific task could have a 50 repetition cap for maximum efficacy.  So if someone grinds bandaging themself a hundred times, they would have 100% general medical competency but only see a 50% efficacy rate applying splint on the first try.  After applying 25 splints, they would see a 75% result--either in time taken to perform the action, or quality of the outcome.

This would lead to situation where a player might say "sorry dude, you're probably only going to get half of this saline bag because I've never done this before. I have a friend in polana who has been alive for like three weeks, and I can give you two can of peaches to help hold you over until we get there.  Do you think we can make it there safely, or do you just want me to try my best and see how much of this saline we can get into you?"
These are the types of interaction that I want to see the game facilitate or even force.
 

This system as you have described it is significantly better than the current implementation. The current system is trivial and linear by comparison. It would be foolish to ignore this suggestion. 

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Only soft skills I care about are the ability to pilot a plane / helicopter , and medic stuff ... maybe some professional cooking ... they better get that stuff right .

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I also think that softskills should not only bring temporary benefits. It should also show in efficiency / talent / material profit-saving.

(As an example, if you have the ability to cook, cooked or cooked a meat or vegetable that is damaged by storage, you can still make half of it as a worn.) It just has to make a practical sense without (endless) grind for a few seconds advantage.

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Hopefully they change it so you can max out multiple skills. There should also be some unique abilities that you can perform if you max out a skill. 

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Adding new actions or options when reaching a max. level is what the devs said they will never want. After the presentation of the devs every player should be able to do anything without softskill skills, because the system should not force you to do anything.

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On the one hand, the devs don't want any soft skills that could give some players an edge over others who might not care about specific manual dexterities, or who just haven't had the time to max them out fully. On the other hand they need to offer a consolation prize to the soft skill aficionados who yearn for some extra activities to mess around with.

The perfect compromise seems to be some rather harmless, borderline useless competences that are neither fish nor fowl.

Who really needs soft skills like these? Make them count or drop them all together.

Regards

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13 hours ago, Lexman61 said:

On the one hand, the devs don't want any soft skills that could give some players an edge over others who might not care about specific manual dexterities, or who just haven't had the time to max them out fully. On the other hand they need to offer a consolation prize to the soft skill aficionados who yearn for some extra activities to mess around with.

The perfect compromise seems to be some rather harmless, borderline useless competences that are neither fish nor fowl.

Who really needs soft skills like these? Make them count or drop them all together.

Regards

You already gave your opinion , why say basically the same thing again ( well accept less insulting to the people you call survival fetishes in a bloody survival game) cool captain pvp doesnt want soft skills , noted. Other people do want soft skills and the devs decided on soft skills to give people something to value there lives in game with more than just there gear ( aka actually try to stay alive in a survival game , novel idea isnt it .) I fear you may be sadly disappointed you may not but really what did you just add there that you didnt in the first post ?(nothing other than not being a total tosser )

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16 hours ago, Sqeezorz said:

Adding new actions or options when reaching a max. level is what the devs said they will never want. After the presentation of the devs every player should be able to do anything without softskill skills, because the system should not force you to do anything.

That's a shame and it is flawed thinking. It shouldn't be looked at as forcing people to do something, rather it's the addition of endgame content that increases player investment and adds more consequences to engaging in battle. 

To be clear, i don't think any combat related hard/soft skill should be in game but if you max out electronics, for example, you could have the ability to repair ruined electrical equipment... This would also help to develop an economy and player made trade system.

Edited by Rek Seven
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3 hours ago, soulfirez said:

You already gave your opinion , why say basically the same thing again ( well accept less insulting to the people you call survival fetishes in a bloody survival game) cool captain pvp doesnt want soft skills , noted. Other people do want soft skills and the devs decided on soft skills to give people something to value there lives in game with more than just there gear ( aka actually try to stay alive in a survival game , novel idea isnt it .) I fear you may be sadly disappointed you may not but really what did you just add there that you didnt in the first post ?(nothing other than not being a total tosser )

Regardless of my opinion, the devs are caught between a stone and a hard place in deciding how to implement your beloved "soft skills".  It's either have them make a real difference or have them to be basically useless. (Maybe the latter choice suits you fine just to kill some time while playing DayZ?)

If you have a "Columbus egg" solution to suggest, please contact the devs immediately.

Best of luck and take good care of yourself out in the wilderness.

Regards

 

 

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4 hours ago, soulfirez said:

You already gave your opinion , why say basically the same thing again ( well accept less insulting to the people you call survival fetishes in a bloody survival game) cool captain pvp doesnt want soft skills , noted. Other people do want soft skills and the devs decided on soft skills to give people something to value there lives in game with more than just there gear ( aka actually try to stay alive in a survival game , novel idea isnt it .) I fear you may be sadly disappointed you may not but really what did you just add there that you didnt in the first post ?(nothing other than not being a total tosser )

Sarcasm and name calling.  Brilliant.  

Lexman61's posts are not insulting.  Try to not be offended easily.  Maybe you need a nap.

2 hours ago, Rek Seven said:

That's a shame and it is flawed thinking. It shouldn't be looked at as forcing people to do something, rather it's the addition of endgame content that increases player investment and adds more consequences to engaging in battle. 

To be clear, i don't think any combat related hard/soft skill should be in game but if you max out electronics, for example, you could have the ability to repair ruined electrical equipment... This would also help to develop an economy and player made trade system.

There's no true endgame content in a sandbox, unless you consider youtube as endgame.  This has been the dilemma for decades, across all MMOs without gated instances.  Social interaction mitigated by skill points doesn't work.  If at any point soft skills are deemed necessary, then it's going to be a total failure, design-wise.

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3 minutes ago, Parazight said:

There's no true endgame content in a sandbox, unless you consider youtube as endgame.  This has been the dilemma for decades, across all MMOs without gated instances.  Social interaction mitigated by skill points doesn't work.  If at any point soft skills are deemed necessary, then it's going to be a total failure, design-wise.

The term endgame content refers to activities vetran players/characters can do to keep them engaged . It is not in reference to completing the game.

I'm not sure what you mean about mitigating social interacting with skill points... I simple think the ability to level up your character create a lot of value. It would actually increase social interaction, as player characters would be a resource as opposed to just a PVP target.

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58 minutes ago, Parazight said:

Sarcasm and name calling.  Brilliant.  

Lexman61's posts are not insulting.  Try to not be offended easily.  Maybe you need a nap.

Lexman has literally (and I mean literally literally) nothing to say apart from 'those pve-rs ammirite, hehe, regards', over and over again, trying to derail every PVE-oriented thread. Many people find this truly obnoxious, you'll see for yourself. But I just wanted to add a short explanation, let's get back to the topic.

Edited by Kirov (DayZ)
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35 minutes ago, Rek Seven said:

The term endgame content refers to activities vetran players/characters can do to keep them engaged . It is not in reference to completing the game.

I'm not sure what you mean about mitigating social interacting with skill points... I simple think the ability to level up your character create a lot of value. It would actually increase social interaction, as player characters would be a resource as opposed to just a PVP target.

So, if I play the game with no real interest in acquiring fancy gear but only to meet and interact with strangers on the coast then am I playing the game wrong?  This has always kept me fully engaged.  I find this to be much more interesting as most people with a decent amount of advanced gear are afraid to lose it and just decide to shoot at you by default.

Also could you give an example where leveling up your character in a sandbox, like DayZ, actually increases social interaction?  Where does this happen?  

Also, aren't PVP targets a great resource for getting better gear?

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58 minutes ago, Parazight said:

So, if I play the game with no real interest in acquiring fancy gear but only to meet and interact with strangers on the coast then am I playing the game wrong?  This has always kept me fully engaged.  I find this to be much more interesting as most people with a decent amount of advanced gear are afraid to lose it and just decide to shoot at you by default.

Also could you give an example where leveling up your character in a sandbox, like DayZ, actually increases social interaction?  Where does this happen?  

Also, aren't PVP targets a great resource for getting better gear?

I think you are seeing things in my post that aren't there... If you want to play on the beach - good for you. I'm not proposing that changes. 

Secondly, i see Day z multiplayer experience more akin to an MMO than an typical shooter like Battlefield for example. Obviously there are a lot of MMO that have a skill system that allows you to customise your character over time. Levelling up can also be seen in casual games that allow you to unlock new abilities/items as you reach new miles stones. 

I don't know why we have to look at other games to be able to discuss the practicalities for this game. For me this is a zombie Apocalypse simulator were the goal is to survive long term. That experience is improved by adding in more long-term goals e.g. farming, base building, creating safer communities and developing your abilities over time. For other people it's a battle royal PVP game that just happens to have zombies.

I honestly don't know why anyone would have a problem with adding a non combat related skill system to the game. Perhaps you could explain?

Edited by Rek Seven
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Ability to unlock a high impact or more options can also be the opposite of more interaction or added value.

Because: What if your character has a high skill level, you become extremely cautious, maybe so vicious that you renounce any possible interaction, or move in places where you feel safe. That means your precious character will only be valuable to yourself or to your friends. (because death makes you the Z of DayZ, the Zero).

The other thing is, what if you die and need to work your skills up to use your own security systems to get into your base or house. That's why I see unlocking new options as a motivational killer rather than an advantage.

Skills/Softskills should give you benefits, yes I am, but more on the side of "Success Rate / Materials / Stability / Quality / Quantity and so on.

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3 hours ago, Kirov (DayZ) said:

Lexman has literally (and I mean literally literally) nothing to say apart from 'those pve-rs ammirite, hehe, regards', over and over again, trying to derail every PVE-oriented thread. Many people find this truly obnoxious, you'll see for yourself. But I just wanted to add a short explanation, let's get back to the topic.

My dear friend Kirov, long time no see, how are you doing?

It's always a pleasure meeting you on the forum to share our diametrically opposed opinions about DayZ and the infinitive ways this game can be played, enjoyed and disagreed upon.

Rather disheartening to read that some sensitive souls should find my comments "truly obnoxious", but I guess that not falling in line with the orthodox and dogmatic creed of the diehard survivalists must necessarily be considered a form of heresy and hence "obnoxious". Rest assured that my opinions have neither the intention nor the influence to "derail" your very serious PVE oriented gatherings. 

As for my posts closing regards, what can I say? I'm surely much older than you and prefer a friendly but formal tone.

In any case, let's get back to the discussion on how the devs should implement soft skills, if at all.

Regards

 

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3 hours ago, Sqeezorz said:

Ability to unlock a high impact or more options can also be the opposite of more interaction or added value.

Because: What if your character has a high skill level, you become extremely cautious, maybe so vicious that you renounce any possible interaction, or move in places where you feel safe. That means your precious character will only be valuable to yourself or to your friends. (because death makes you the Z of DayZ, the Zero).

The other thing is, what if you die and need to work your skills up to use your own security systems to get into your base or house. That's why I see unlocking new options as a motivational killer rather than an advantage.

Skills/Softskills should give you benefits, yes I am, but more on the side of "Success Rate / Materials / Stability / Quality / Quantity and so on.

I get what you are saying but the same could be said for high performance weapons. They deter people from interacting on a personal level and instead encourage them to KOS out of fear of loosing their gear.

Rather than assuming the worst, can we just have a discussion how this could work? 

I agree with your opinion on how skills should work. Additionally, repairing ruined weapons/items and the ability to cook food that gives a small boost to a character, are both examples of new skills that do not gate current features and do not give any overwhelming advantages.

I could be wrong but i think that if worthwhile skills were in the game, people (even bandits) would be encouraged to work/interact with other players. And i do not think it is necessarily a bad thing that people become more cautious about getting into a gun fight, as this is what i imagine a zombie Apocalypse would be like. 

 

Edited by Rek Seven
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8 hours ago, Parazight said:

If at any point soft skills are deemed necessary, then it's going to be a total failure, design-wise.

I think this is exactly the reason why the devs went with the 'soft skills' thing when they first talked about it. Not to make it necessary and caging you in some route, but kind of optional. Still somewhat useful to someone who invest in it, but not a must for everyone to have a good time. I know it sounds bland but could be able to support the diversity in the player base. And on this particular topic :D

We've all played so many hours of Dayz, that clearly some things are now being missed, looking for something to make the experience even more rich, reading through so many reactions here.

I don't really have a good idea about this but I'd make it invisible. I'd make the characters have to live for a longer time to see some benefit in their efficiency. Meaning, in-game days and equipment usage, distance traveled etc. would be recorded on the hive or just a particular server. They'd be able to do everything just a bit faster, even some combat-related elements, like reloading mags and weapons, ADS time. Not accuracy really. Maybe some sway. A bit. Somewhat reduced stamina drain... I'd like to see something like that. Any ideas what could go wrong?

We've had these weapons jams already due to bad ammo. This was nerve-wrecking but sometimes great fun (when you make it out alive).

@emuthreat has a pretty good idea with worked out scenarios. Sounds great if they're able to produce something like that.

Whatever the path they go with, I'd also discuss about how will the players be able to go around this and exploit or even hack these, just for the sake of preventing it as much as possible. 

4 hours ago, Sqeezorz said:

Ability to unlock a high impact or more options can also be the opposite of more interaction or added value.

Because: What if your character has a high skill level, you become extremely cautious...

I didn't play a lot of multiplayer games, but Dayz certainly made me a high skill level person, not a character :D This is why some time ago I decided to always shoot/bash the run-around mutes in Dayz :D never mind the gear I have.

8 hours ago, Kirov (DayZ) said:

 

Thanks :D I had some good laughs reading some of your comments on the topic... this is on the positive side of course :)

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On 5/25/2018 at 12:58 AM, Solopopo said:

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I managed to max out crafting/building as shown above. I have to say I am a little underwhelmed by the benefit of having maxed crafting. When the meter is in the middle, it takes 5.5 seconds to craft a stick fireplace. At max crafting it takes 4.5 seconds. That is a lot of work to do for one second. Neither mending nor crafting is actually very useful from what I can tell. Being able to craft something one second less isn't really that big of a deal. I suppose you could say the time was lowered by about 20 percent, but still, this isn't really all that much to get excited about, and certainly not enough to motivate someone to deliberately max anything out. For those of you who are curious, it took me about seven hours to max it out in Elektro with no threats or distractions................

Soft skills were introduced as silent mechanics that ever so slightly reward you for doing something repetatively and that is exactly what they are doing.

Just like IRL you slowly get better at stuff, develop somewhat of a skill. Its still a soft skill, the game is no RPG. But sure, the reward could be tweaked and slightly bigger.

From the sound of it, mending would be useful, if it means I can mend my torn clothes quicker and more reliably (to a better or even to pristine quality).

However:

Quote

This isn't enough to motivate anyone one way or the other. 

ITS NOT SUPPOSED TO ANYWAY.

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So it's been six years since I oringally posted this. There was a lot of speculation in this thread that the soft skill system was an early, unfinished, implementation but it doesn't really seem like that was the case. After six long years there are many players that still don't even know the soft skill sytem exists, let alone what it actually does. The general consensus among players that do know how it works is that leveling up your soft skills is not worth it. It seems that after all this time the soft skill system is ineffectual, which really begs the question why it exists at all. Why did they bother implementing a system that does practically nothing? The original intention of the system was to encourage players to stick it out on their characters when things got rough. Players were supposed to care about their soft skills. It would seem that the soft skill system fails to achieve it's original goal.

 

On 6/18/2018 at 2:42 PM, Buakaw said:

ITS NOT SUPPOSED TO ANYWAY.

 

The original intention of the soft skill system, as stated by the developers, was to encourage players to have more of an attachment to their characters. It was to encourage players to not just respawn right away when captured, knocked unconcious, sick, etc. And it clearly fails at doing that. 

I understand that these are supposed to be "soft" skills. The developers didn't want the game to be an RPG. But players were supposed to care about soft skills. That was the whole point. 

So lets consider for a moment that they wanted the soft skill system to have minor but appreciable benefits to your character, and at the same time it wasn't meant to be something overly distracting to the player experience. For this system to function and achieve it's original stated purpose, fine and rough skills would need to be leveled independently without anything taking away that progress, aside from death of course. The way the soft skill system is currently implemented, you need to be very preoccupied with your soft skills to make any progress with them. You need to know how the soft skill system works if you are going to level up consistently in either direction. Unless you are conciously leveling your skills by putting enormous effort and time into it, you will never gain any benefit from it. If you are not drastically changing your play style to level up your soft skills, it is not going to happen. You say it isn't supposed to be that way. Well, that is the consequence of how it is designed. Players were supposed to not be overly concerned with soft skills, but you can't progress in your soft skills unless you are. So the system is at odds with itself. It undermines it's own goal. 

 

So to recap, what we have is a soft skill system that takes great effort, planning, and time to eke out minimal benefit. What were we supposed to have? A soft skill system that wasn't distracting that provided some small benefits to players that have survived a long time. Is that what we have? No. Players who are not going out of their way will never benefit from this ineffective soft skill system. From a conceptual game design perspective, the current soft skill system we have is a failure. It fails to achieve it's original purpose and it oddly fails to influence anything in any way at all. 

Edited by Solopopo
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I`ve found an interesting video about this topic on yt few weeks ago:

 

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