Countering combat logging & server hopping.

[Pliskinki 52]

Say you are fighting someone, he ran away and hide, well enough so you can't catch him in 20 seconds, then the individual logs out of the game, character is gone, the prey escaped from the hunter...

Well... This sucks for either of the parties, the hunter will be pissed because the hunted is absolutely safe after abusing a feature of the game that can't be helped as of now, and the hunted will be taking himself away from a chance of telling stories of how he survived such encounter... Which, in the end, makes the experience of the game just bad, since encounters are not meant to play out like this.

You shouldn't simply vanish from your world in order to survive, you can tho, be good and lucky enough so you will outsmart your hunter, hide and effectively escape. And as the hunter, you should have the ability to track down your foe, which in DayZ, can be pretty tricky sometimes.

So as a solution for combat logging, I say:

Players that log out should think about the location where they are logging out... Make it so after logging out, the player go into a sleep state, using the sleep animation or something else, for about 5 minutes (which is a fair amount of time for this mechanic), and then, vanish from the world like usual.

This will make it fair and even for every player, combat loggers will then, have to actually run away and hide well before doing their shenanigans. This is, of course, alike rust's sleep system, but less brutal since we can't build crazy shit to protect our sleeping body, gladly.

How does this also prevents server hopping? Well if you want to server hop, you probably are going to die, also the timer for re-logging being 5 minutes, I'm sure people would think two or three times before doing it.

I strongly believe this is a topic that should be addressed with urgency in this game.

Maybe someone already had this idea as I see some posts about sleeping in beds roaming around the DayZ community, but there we go.

Edited September 23, 2017 by Pliskin Scout

[pilgrim* 3513]

1 hour ago, Pliskin Scout said:

..//..

Isn't that what happens? Have I missed something < I've been away > ?
So how long does your body stay in the game after you log out now ? 

& ps - what happened to the idea that backpacks would have some limited persistence? - so you could leave your backpack under a tree, go into town, and come back to pick it up an hour or two later. That was being mooted a year ago, but i've never seen gear vanish as fast as in this patch.
Dumb example, on Official, I killed a zombie with an axe and he despawned before he hit the ground. Guess he was needed somewhere else? 
Put anything down, walk away 50 paces and when you come back its gone.

I thought the backpack "durability"  - "mini persistence" - was a great idea. Did it just fade out and get forgotten? Or is someone stealing my stuff as soon as I turn my back?

[Pliskinki 52]

You stay around 10~20 seconds in-game after logging out.

Backpack persistence is about 3 hours if they didn't changed that.

Zombies sometimes goes into the floor, you can't see the corpse but if you walk around the area it fell with "tab" open it will show up.

[Red_Ensign 990]

to be clear, if a player shoots at you and then logs out, yeah that's 'combat logging'.  but if he was minding his own business and logs when you spray bullets at him, that's just having no interest in your kos bullshit.

[Pliskinki 52]

8 minutes ago, Red_Ensign said:

to be clear, if a player shoots at you and then logs out, yeah that's 'combat logging'.  but if he was minding his own business and logs when you spray bullets at him, that's just having no interest in your kos bullshit.

Yeah... sure.

[BeefBacon 1185]

2 hours ago, Red_Ensign said:

to be clear, if a player shoots at you and then logs out, yeah that's 'combat logging'.  but if he was minding his own business and logs when you spray bullets at him, that's just having no interest in your kos bullshit.

That's still combat logging.

Yeah I guess I wouldn't be too opposed to logged out players sticking around in the server for a bit longer. 5 minutes seems a bit excessive, but maybe 60 - 90 seconds would be okay. I would say, however, that damage from non-player sources should be greatly reduced. That is to say, if you log out in a bush and a zombie or a wolf or whatever spots you and starts wailing on you, it should do a fraction of the damage it would normally do. This means that if a single zombie happens upon you it's unlikely to be able to kill you before you disappear, but if you log out to escape a horde of zombies they'll still mess you up. You should also be immune to weather effects and things of that nature.

[pilgrim* 3513]

6 hours ago, BeefBacon said:

That's still combat logging.

Yeah I guess I wouldn't be too opposed to logged out players sticking around in the server for a bit longer. 5 minutes seems a bit excessive, but maybe 60 - 90 seconds would be okay. I would say, however, that damage from non-player sources should be greatly reduced. That is to say, if you log out in a bush and a zombie or a wolf or whatever spots you and starts wailing on you, it should do a fraction of the damage it would normally do. This means that if a single zombie happens upon you it's unlikely to be able to kill you before you disappear, but if you log out to escape a horde of zombies they'll still mess you up. You should also be immune to weather effects and things of that nature.

In fact I thought that had been sorted ages ago and there was a reliable body-wait after you logged out, of 30 seconds - to avoid combat logging, eg players cornered in houses logging off before they could be reached - to make it as dangerous to log out in as to stay in the game.. also to make the player face surrender or parlay. And to stop other easy unfair combat logging, natch.

I really thought that had been set at a definite time period. I always play to 30 seconds. Meaning I expect my avatar to be in the game 30 secs after Ive logged out. So I always log out where I expect to be safe for that time.

I'm dazed and amazed  its not a set parameter?  I thought it was, since an AGE ago. What happened?

*

Similar for backpacks - last I heard there was "going to be"  a fixed minimum time-period that players could leave a backpack (nothing else) - with or without gear in it.. and it would stay where put for a set time, minimum, before despawning.  But when I've tested it out with school satchels or any other pack I pick up in the game, if I log out and come back, it's gone..  and if I stay in game I don't think Ive seen any loot, including backpacks, stay on the ground where I dropped them - definitely for longer than an hour - its always gone if I drop it under a tree (with 1 or 2 gear  in) leave the area and come back a few mins later - maybe 15-20 mins later.

A while back (a year or 18 months?) the backpack "durability" time was moot, being discussed, agreed as a DEFINITE  gameplay improvement.

*

Logout delay was a SET parameter, already discussed ENDLESSLY for months, and decided, implemented over a year ago. The log-out "pause" was exactly as definite and fixed as the "anti-hopping" pause to log in again, and for the same set of reasons.

The accepted idea (and decision) is you log out in a safe place. For a while plenty of players were complaining that when they logged back in they were dead. And the reply was "only log out somewhere safe, dummy."

Please - Anyone know the actual ATM REAL programmed-into-the-game SET time for after-logout continuation - and for backpack durability?

 .. Emuthreat?

.. I'm baffled by this. What's going on? - thanx

Edited September 24, 2017 by pilgrim*

[DannyDog 532]

@pilgrim* I've always been under the assumption that your body stays for 30 seconds after you've logged out. That's why they put a timer for when you change servers because you have to wait for your body on the previous server to disappear before entering a new one because what happens when your character dies after you logged out and you were in the middle of logging in to another server. Anyway gotta some tests to find out.

[pilgrim* 3513]

39 minutes ago, DannyDog said:

@pilgrim* I've always been under the assumption that your body stays for 30 seconds after you've logged out. That's why they put a timer for when you change servers because you have to wait for your body on the previous server to disappear before entering a new one because what happens when your character dies after you logged out and you were in the middle of logging in to another server. Anyway gotta some tests to find out.

yep, I thought this was part of the same thing. There was a LOT of discussion and a LOT of argument mainly around server hopping and combat logging (like; this discussion went on for a YEAR solid)  - and I THOUGHT that was all sorted.  Then for a while SOME players complained because they'd snipe and log out, and when they came back in they'd be dead -  or they'd log out in a dumb place and when they logged in again they were being eaten by a zombie. But those things were WHY there was a set logout delay.  The body log-out countdown timer was signed sealed and delivered to solve those gameplay problems - it was implemented - along with the login delay. = Better gameplay. Coming back to the game I never thought of playing any other way.
 

[Pliskinki 52]

Combat logging is definitely not sorted out. I play lone-wolf most of my time, have like 1.650 hours in-game and been facing a lot of people lately that will simply combat log whenever they even glance at me running around or I miss my long range shots.

There was this case just a few days ago, where I saw a lone guy in Cherno he was clearly all geared, he was kinda far away from me down the street, he saw me too... The deal was, he ran away to the closest house his position, I dashed straight to the guy and reached the place he was hiding, could still hear him there, them when I decided to storm in... Guess what? No player inside. The guy logged out. This was under the frame of 30 seconds.

Now imagine I'm sniping some dudes, 400~800 meters away, I miss my shot, dude run into cover, and logs out just for the sake of cheesy surviving the encounter. How long would I take to process his cheesiness and know that the guy is not simply taking cover to fire back at me, then after that, decide go full storm on him from this 400~800m position I was? Sure more than 30 seconds.

10 hours ago, BeefBacon said:

"You should also be immune to weather effects and things of that nature."

I agree with you on that btw, but can't agree with the zombie horde flee stuff, most people that are fleeing from infected right now would lock themselves into houses first, so they can't be harmed in the process.

[pilgrim* 3513]

4 hours ago, Pliskin Scout said:

Combat logging is definitely not sorted out. I play lone-wolf most of my time, have like 1.650 hours in-game and been facing a lot of people lately that will simply combat log whenever they even glance at me running around or I miss my long range shots.

There was this case just a few days ago, where I saw a lone guy in Cherno he was clearly all geared, he was kinda far away from me down the street, he saw me too... The deal was, he ran away to the closest house his position, I dashed straight to the guy and reached the place he was hiding, could still hear him there, them when I decided to storm in... Guess what? No player inside. The guy logged out. This was under the frame of 30 seconds.

Now imagine I'm sniping some dudes, 400~800 meters away, I miss my shot, dude run into cover, and logs out just for the sake of cheesy surviving the encounter. How long would I take to process his cheesiness and know that the guy is not simply taking cover to fire back at me, then after that, decide go full storm on him from this 400~800m position I was? Sure more than 30 seconds.

I agree with you on that btw, but can't agree with the zombie horde flee stuff, most people that are fleeing from infected right now would lock themselves into houses first, so they can't be harmed in the process.

Seriously I thought it was sorted - I haven't checked for ages  (yep, lone wolf)
I don't even know where the blog topics have gone, there was tons said and ARGUED about this. Then a solution was put in place.

In a combat situation 30 seconds is a serious interval of time.. the guy is in a house or a camo building, you can judge within 10 secs of "action-time" what is happening, where he is located or probably located, and how to deal with it - you hear him moving or see peeping, etc.. you make your move or hold off, even another 10 secs to get into position, decide if you go in for him or not, maneuver for a shot (and you know maybe he is logging, or hes waiting quiet for you to THINK that?). ..  if the guy is standing behind the door upright and doesn't move he's logged out and you kill his body. Nice.
It's not ideal but it's very PRACTICAL .. the dude knows he can't just dodge into a shed and log, because in the next 20 secs you may just burst in there or peek in and catch his body standing up, logged out, and next time he logs in he's dead. So in many situation he DARE NOT log out until he is at least has a chance of being safe, getting lost, away, really out of sight, or he fights

I play that way - am I wasting my time now?

Never log where there are zombies, evidently. Stand in shelter. Also 20+ seconds is about the warning time for a wolf attack, so either don't log in those regions, or log in a shed or house or trailer, log with your back to a tree (even log out in a shooting stand if you have to but you know that's a risk) ..  ya know..  and don't log if you're dying of exposure (why would that help?)  - deal with it or die, fight or stand and run, surrender, commit suicide, go down shooting, or be cunning fake them out and log while they're still too afraid to come looking, you have half a minute. Are they dumb or smart?  This is gameplay.

It's a survival & combat game, you have to THINK about where to hole up to log, even when alone,  this is BASIC gameplay (Its REALLY Important!)  - you only do it where you are pretty CERTAIN nothing is going to get you in the next 30 seconds.

And I have to say, look at your previous firefights - 30 seconds is a LONG time in a firefight. A lot happens. 30 seconds of leaving your body in the game  makes it frighting and dangerous to log out and take that "chance" - you are forced to find better solutions or to avoid those fight-and-log situations in the first place.

This USED to be in the game.

Damn! - after ALL those 100s & 100s of arguments for MONTHS on this blog here (really, no one remembers?)
... but if NOW the log out timer is NOT still there, Gone - on account of the "cut down" current version, then damn - I have no idea what's happening.

It puts the gameplay back by about a YEAR or MORE, for sure.

Am I wrong? - DEVS ??? Tell me i'm wrong. Make my day.

thanx.

Edited September 24, 2017 by pilgrim*

[philbur 476]

NOPE! ....not wrong...

A logout timer (gimme 30 seconds, even) goes SUCH along way in keeping engagements meaningful and worthy of careful consideration.

A few rumored "changes" for Beta have me genuinely worried about what the ultimate Vanilla release will become but THIS is literally the "game-changer" that would have me begging for a MOD right off the bat.

Say it isn't so, Devs...

[liquidcactus 719]

I still wonder why they havent made it 2-3 mins or so after you log out.. i mean is its 20 secs or whatever atm how hard could it be to adjust the timer for that sequence ?

[DannyDog 532]

2 hours ago, liquidcactus said:

I still wonder why they havent made it 2-3 mins or so after you log out.. i mean is its 20 secs or whatever atm how hard could it be to adjust the timer for that sequence ?

2-3 mins for your body to stay in the last server after you've logged out?

That would mean you have to wait the remaining duration to spawn back in when you log into another server. (I can see people complaining about it)

You can't have two instances of your character spawned in on two different servers or else you'll have to deal with conflicts.

edit: But of course this issue is not a problem for private hives, probably another reason why the devs wanted characters to be single server only.

Edited September 25, 2017 by DannyDog

[Pliskinki 52]

10 hours ago, DannyDog said:

edit: But of course this issue is not a problem for private hives, probably another reason why the devs wanted characters to be single server only.

Yeah, all this talk is not in the scope of private hives due to their nature now, but talking about the official public server and linked hives. Even tho people would complain, it would make a fair ground for everyone, so the complaints would be absorbed by that point. I do believe that having this 2~5 minutes log-in timer after switching servers is not bad for the community and that's why I'm going ham into this topic, look at these situations.

(before CLFix)Situation 1: Guy logs into the server for the first time, 20~30 seconds timer as usual, plays for 3 minutes, notice he was on a different server than his friends and log out going into another server of the same hive. Needs to wait 180 seconds (3 minutes) to log back in, no big deal since everybody is used to it. While all this goes on, his character is 20~30 seconds in-game then *puff*, vanish.

(beforeCLFix)Situation 2: Unlegit player is playing for a few hours, has some neat equipment, hear gun shots, go after it, take aim on targets and end up getting shot before doing any harm, he's then in a overwhelming situation but still not dead. He then proceeds to run away a little bit knowing his targets were kinda far from him, and logs out near any bush or rock that is large enough to kinda hide him.

Players chasing this guy finally arrive at the scene, 5 seconds before the end of 20~30, spot him, take aim, and when the breathing has finally been controlled, he clicks to do his shot. *puff* enemy vanishes right before their eyes. Nothing can be done here anymore.

(after CLFix)Situation 1: Guy logs into a server first time, 20~30secs log in timer, play for a while, legit encounters, keep on surviving as it's meant to be, he gets tired after 2 hours, he knows he is going to take a break for more than 2~5 minutes, then... knowing about the new timers and log out mechanics, think about his moves, hide and log out safely after scanning the area surrounding him, locking the doors with lock-picks, etc...

(after CLFix) Situation 2: New patch arrives, Unlegit player do his shenanigans again, and logs out... gets caught "hiding" from his foes while logging out. Well, now... This guy will be there, for 2~5 minutes before vanishing. Bye bye little fella the group(enemy) that once would be annoyed by your ways of "survival" have the go now. The combat logger learn a lesson and should have kept either fighting or running to hide better.

Notice that in Situation 1 of either of the LEGIT scenarios, the user had to wait about 3 minutes to go into the game. But before CLFix, the character will be there only for 20~30 seconds instead of the full 3~5 minutes timer.

[pilgrim* 3513]

12 hours ago, DannyDog said:

2-3 mins for your body to stay in the last server after you've logged out?

That would mean you have to wait the remaining duration to spawn back in when you log into another server. (I can see people complaining about it)

You can't have two instances of your character spawned in on two different servers or else you'll have to deal with conflicts.

edit: But of course this issue is not a problem for private hives, probably another reason why the devs wanted characters to be single server only.

1 subject: You have to wait over 2 mins ATM if you want to spawn out from one server and into a different server - this avoids unfair advantages like fighters switching servers, moving position; and then switching back eg overlooking or behind the enemy. I think the timer is set to 200 seconds right now.. but I don't rush to change servers much so haven't paid attention.. It is around 200 seconds? it is an on-screen COUNTDOWN -  Try it: log out, and straight away log into another server, you get the blue screen with the coundown timer. 

Different subject - the time your body stays in play after you log out was SET SOLID and FIXED after a lot of discussion. It is DEFINED - It was SET in the game maybe +18 months ago or longer. WAY BACK. Your avatar stays in play after you log out for a SET TIME.  Has this now been changed in the last few months...  ???  Looking at Youtube I see strange stuff going on and think "maybe" there has been some temporary alteration in this patch?  for some reason?

But in this game DayZ - The Rock Solid Standard - Your avatar STAYS in GAME after you log out.  The timing is FIXED. I believe it was set to 30 seconds, but I don't even remember - I  never worried about  the exact length of time because I don't log out in dumb situations. 
This AVATAR LOG OUT TIMER has been part of DayZ for a REALLY LONG TIME -  Back since 5.3 or before.. You leave the game right away, but your Avatar does NOT.

 

[DannyDog 532]

I somehow forgot about the long wait time between changing servers because most of my play sessions involve one server for a few hours then a regular log off.

I do remember now that I and a lot of others were fine with the wait time. It was just a consideration I brought up that I don't personally hate.

So yeah you're both right.