[Dev] Eye zoom 'probably' being removed entirely

[Espa 711]

I may be in the minority, but I actually always found the 'Eye-Zoom' to be horribly unrealistic. I'm not sure about the rest of you, but I don't possess robot eyes that zoom in so far that I lose perspective of what's closer to me.

I would say that the best solution is just to increase render-size/distance of characters in the distance in lieu of having robo-eyes. Just like in real life, you should actually need binoculars and scopes to see well at a distance. - This will also render everyone just as vulnerable from a long-sighted foe. Win-win in my book.

Edit: As for those who say that this is going to remove the cautiousness of 'smart players', I really don't think so. I truly believe caution comes from a personality type and experience, so those who are cautious now will simply find another manner of doing so. 

Edited August 29, 2017 by Espa

[ImageCtrl 719]

19 hours ago, -Gews- said:

... when compared to the ARMA, but now we had some issues with the [...] zooming value (?) in (?) the iron sights...

I hope they find a way to solve "some issues". This feature belongs to Bohemia Interactive games.

19 hours ago, -Gews- said:

And at that point it's no longer worth playing.

A bit exaggerated.

[Guy Smiley 534]

This is great news.  I've been trying really hard in real life to duplicate this eagle eye zoom but to no avail.

[Mantasisg 172]

Isn't it just realistic FOV within a click of RMB, which you call robo eyes and everything ?

[pilgrim* 3513]

2 hours ago, Espa said:

 I'm not sure about the rest of you, but I don't possess robot eyes that zoom in so far that I lose perspective of what's closer to me.

BUT YES, OF COURSE YOU DO, like the rest of us  - Homo Sapiens have been HUNTERS for more than 100,000 years..   You don't have "robot eyes" or "camera eyes" - you posses Evolved Human Eyes that serve a highly specific purpose.
After the 100000 or maybe even 200000 years of specialization, you probably don't even notice the real action of 'vision'  in your daily life. -  You don't have time. It's amazing what the brain can let you ignore.

xx

[Mantasisg 172]

A game - find a smart post in this thread, and quote it (there is probably only one)

http://forums.joinsquad.com/topic/9574-zoom-focus/?page=3

[soulfirez 901]

3 hours ago, Espa said:

I may be in the minority, but I actually always found the 'Eye-Zoom' to be horribly unrealistic. I'm not sure about the rest of you, but I don't possess robot eyes that zoom in so far that I lose perspective of what's closer to me.

I would say that the best solution is just to increase render-size/distance of characters in the distance in lieu of having robo-eyes. Just like in real life, you should actually need binoculars and scopes to see well at a distance. - This will also render everyone just as vulnerable from a long-sighted foe. Win-win in my book.

Edit: As for those who say that this is going to remove the cautiousness of 'smart players', I really don't think so. I truly believe caution comes from a personality type and experience, so those who are cautious now will simply find another manner of doing so. 

You need to forget it being a zoom and think of it as focus. Your eyes are extremely adapt at focussing in on objects , and beyond that you have to realize your eyes in real life can actually see further and clearer than what you call zoom but also see a much wider field of view than when the focus is zoomed out. So it has always been the arma series way of approximating more realistic vision abilities than games like say battlefield which try nothing to be realistic as its not there intent.

[Espa 711]

Guys, I'm not a kid or can't understand what you're getting at with Human Vision, but we all know it cannot be perfectly replicated for a game (Yet?). The In-Game version that we use now is a 'Focus', sure, but it is indeed a Zoom feature. I realize now it's a subject of various sides. . But still. . 

I live in Colorado Springs and go hike in the mountains about 5-6 times a week for a few hours at a time, so I am used to seeing others at a great distance and 'focusing' on objects/structures to see them more clearly. However, I literally cannot Zoom my eyes haha. If this game had a true perception Focus, it would be more like keeping your same vision of things while the center focuses further and more clear - while the outside rim would become more opaque and blurry.

That would be more realistic, to me. 

[-Gews- 7443]

5 hours ago, Dancing.Russian.Man said:

Besides, if it does get removed, you might be able to very easily just mod the feature back in if you need/want it.

Not a great solution. You can mod anything you like, but you need someone to play it. Only the large mods survive, the rest die very quickly.

Besides being a huge amount of work, 'historically' those successful mods have all been quite different from vanilla DayZ experience.

 

Better idea: give feedback (ie, complain loudly) and see if devs will change their minds. Has happened before.

 

3 minutes ago, Espa said:

I live in Colorado Springs and go hike in the mountains about 5-6 times a week for a few hours at a time, so I am used to seeing others at a great distance and 'focusing' on objects/structures to see them more clearly. However, I literally cannot Zoom my eyes haha.

Your DayZ character doesn't have eyes, he has a virtual camera in his head and you are watching that on your monitor. No zoom, objects in the distance are too small. You can't see certain things you should be able to.

So what can allow your character to see things clearly at a reasonable distance and also have as wide as possible a FOV? You've got to have a variable FOV, eg, zoom.

Doesn't matter eyes don't zoom—it's not eyes. It's trying to represent the field of view and the visual acuity you get with eyes. We don't have a HUD elements or floating text either in real life, those are there to represent missing capabilities also.

The zoomed-in view is your proper basic FOV, the zoomed-out view is just there so you can see around you. So you can think of it as being 'zoomed-out' by default. And the binoculars and scopes multiply based on your zoomed-in FOV, not the zoomed-out FOV.

 

2 hours ago, ImageCtrl said:

A bit exaggerated.

Nope—if it ends up being that annoying, why play? Already went through it in 0.57. If this terrible change stays, maybe I will mellow out and still get some enjoyment, and maybe not.

 

 

 

 

By the way, for reference: looking at an old comment of mine and found this.

Here's someone viewed at just 100 metres in ARMA 2, without any zoom (Initfov=0.7, IIRC). Would look similar in current 0.63 DayZ.

 

[Espa 711]

100 Meters is actually pretty decently far away for the human eyes to pick up things precisely, adding to that light levels and environmental camouflage. The above picture is actually a pretty accurate shot of what a real life encounter would be like with someone at that distance. They'd be tiny, in the distance, looking close to a dark spike. If you're in a dark area, you most likely wouldn't even see them if they weren't moving abruptly or making any loud noises across that distance. 

For visual of 100 Meters and why I think it's silly that we have robo-eyes in DayZ. - If it DOES stay, I won't be upset by it because obviously some enjoy it and it doesn't take anything away from my experience. 

 

[-Gews- 7443]

54 minutes ago, Espa said:

The above picture is actually a pretty accurate shot of what a real life encounter would be like with someone at that distance. They'd be tiny, in the distance, looking close to a dark spike.

Not true.

 

That is a video.

Displayed on a monitor. Without digital zoom.

So exactly like the camera in DayZ it's going to appear smaller than you see in real life.

Go get a camera, take a 16:9 photo without any zoom, size that photo to your 16:9 screen and note how objects in the distance are smaller than they actually appeared.

 

People at 100 m, or 200 m, or further, do not appear like 'dark spikes'. At 1 kilometre, sure, then they look real small.

 

If you don't have a previously known distance or a laser rangefinder, you can use Google Maps measuring tool to find distances. Right click on a spot and choose 'Measure distance'. 

[Guy Smiley 534]

How did you guys survive playing shooters before the eagle eye zoom?  Are you seriously going to get that butthurt over a feature that is highly unrealistic?

[klesh 2423]

I think I will like the change.  Gives a purpose to binocs.

[-Gews- 7443]

We can calculate the appropriate size of a given object on the screen. For example, a 1.8 m tall figure at a distance of 100 m makes an angle of 0.018 radians.

If my distance from the screen is 30 inches I can just go 0.018*30" = 0.54" as the size on the screen.

If my screen is 11.25 inches high, and has a resolution of 1920x1080, that means 96 pixels per linear inch, so the 1.8 m tall figure at 100 m should be 0.54* 96 = 52 pixels high.

That's the appropriate size to match the real-life apparent size.

And that would demand a character minFOV very close to 0.25 (same as ARMA 2, 3).

Appropriate value for configuration changes on distance and screen size.

If I increased to a 27" monitor at the same distance that minFOV would need to be increased to about 0.30. A 15.6" laptop at only 24", lowered to about 0.21. 

(For reference it's currently at 0.4143 in DayZ standalone, and 0.25 in ARMA 2 and IIRC ARMA 3).

 

 

 

 

Anyways, using the default settings, a man that appeared to be just 300 m away in the DayZ mod will appear to be 850 m away in DayZ 0.63. If you're like me and play on max FOV, he'll appear 1 kilometre off.

 

[sneakydude 480]

See it when it is done, done being the key word...

[Mantasisg 172]

People with small monitors are going to suffer the most from this.

Maybe just make the correct FOV aka iron sight, aka eagle eye, aka bionic eye as default. And ditch the stretched out one, as that is less realistic, at least mathematically. But oh welll.... performance.

Sometimes it looks like gameplay is at the very bottom of things in DayZ.

[pilgrim* 3513]

On 30/08/2017 at 2:50 AM, Espa said:

100 Meters is actually pretty decently far away for the human eyes to pick up things precisely, adding to that light levels and environmental camouflage. The above picture is actually a pretty accurate shot of what a real life encounter would be like with someone at that distance. They'd be tiny, in the distance, looking close to a dark spike. If you're in a dark area, you most likely wouldn't even see them if they weren't moving abruptly or making any loud noises across that distance. 

For visual of 100 Meters and why I think it's silly that we have robo-eyes in DayZ. - If it DOES stay, I won't be upset by it because obviously some enjoy it and it doesn't take anything away from my experience. 

 

Espasa - let's understand this..

1 ) You are looking at a flat screen maybe 40cm away, OK... You are ALWAYS looking at a screen 40 cm away.
In the game, look at the trees on the horizon, maybe "2 km" away? - now look at something in your hands. Do you THINK your eyes have changed FOCUS?.. NO WAY  both those things are 40 cm away and your eyes did not focus more distant or closer AT ALL.. That is in your head, it is your ILLUSION of playing a game.. the stuff on the screen is NOT 3D it is a FLAT screen and everything is always 40 cm away, ALL of it.

2 ) Look at a tree in DayZ, move your real head from side to side - NO PARALLAX - wow, this is a total fake!.. your brain RIGHT NOW Knows this is not a "real scene".  your fore-brain makes up a story for you about "things that are little are far away" and "things that are big are close". This is because the brain-eye function (which is VERY SMART all by itself) has closed down because it is 95% NOT NEEDED, and it lets you get on with you complete fantasy that you are NOT looking at objects 40 cm away.. The brain-eye function goes to sleep when you are in-game  to HELP you to live in that fantasy YOU have created.

BUT in the REAL WORLD - GO for a hike in the hills, AIM down the barrel of a gun with iron sights -  NONE of that IN-GAME stuff works, your brain has switched off "game mode"  now and gone back to using REAL human eyesight -  an incredible accurate deadly device evolved IRL for human survival.

In the real world, if there is a dot in the distance, maybe you don't notice (don't "SEE") it because it's not moving - the brain "notices it in background" but if it MOVES, then the brain TELLS you to SEE it right away.. but that seems weird? - How come it is easier to see something that moves instead of something that is motionless - they are both the same SIZE and COLOR at the same distance? - (the easy non-technical answer is: ) Because the brain has evolved for 100,000 years to do this. And what is WORSE.. while YOU are moving YOURSELF, the brain takes a CONSTANT scan of "noticing in the background" even though ALL the background moves because you are moving, and compares it to the last scans, instantly, moment by moment.. THEN if that little object moves slightly differently to the moving background, the brain WARNS you immediately - then you SEE it (and that impulse is linked to another human impulse to immediately stop moving, to become invisible to FOCUS and to SEE it BETTER.). it is mainly the brain (not the eyes) that decides to FOCUS.

- is this obscure?

IRL Driving up the road,  you LOOK at a road sign. You SEE that road-sign in MUCH better detail than the truck standing next to it, but your brain "knows" the truck is there ("already scanned,  still noticed by the "background attention", recognized ")  but you are LOOKING at the sign.  Two DIFFERENT things are going on there (at least) - you can't read the truck number plate and the road-sign instruction at the SAME time, you decide which to SEE .. this is HUMAN Hunting focus, it is built in..

Put an "imitation" of all this stuff described above on a FLAT screen 40 cm from your eyes and +70% of your Human brain-eye operation shuts down. YOU probably aren't even aware of it, but your eyes don't EVER change depth of focus while you play.. So what is going on in there? All that amazing processing power is wasted.

In real life look down the barrel of a gun over iron sights at a target 300 feet away
In real life PAY ATTENTION to something you see 300 feet away MOVE up a hill, in the side of your vision while you are jogging along a track.

Do those things and NOTICE (observe in yourself) what is happening;   It is difficult to do this because we are so used to it we think it is "just normal" but it is 70-90% automatic & unconscious brain-eye action in the real 3D universe where man is a hunter with amazing eyesight, focus, simultaneous wide and narrow attention levels, and ranging -  the brain-eye does all that and 'tells' us about it afterwards.

You will realize, if you observe yourself while experiencing those real life things, that those events are Totally NOTHING like looking at a completely flat non-3D screen 40 cm away.  Looking at that screen we are not using a tenth of our human eye IRL abilities.

What Gews points out is there is ALREADY in the game a very SIMPLE technique for making that flat screen a "little" BIT closer to what is natural and instinctive for human Beings
(just as it has been for tens of thousands of years).

 

xxp

 

 

 

Edited August 31, 2017 by pilgrim*

[Guy Smiley 534]

5 hours ago, Mantasisg said:

People with small monitors are going to suffer the most from this.

Maybe just make the correct FOV aka iron sight, aka eagle eye, aka bionic eye as default. And ditch the stretched out one, as that is less realistic, at least mathematically. But oh welll.... performance.

Sometimes it looks like gameplay is at the very bottom of things in DayZ.

If you have a small monitor don't play at 1080p.  I've got a 15" screen on my laptop and use 1600x900 to play my games.  People need to stop making excuses for terrible gameplay mechanics

[Espa 711]

1 hour ago, pilgrim* said:

-Snip-

Thanks for the write-up, I am sure it took some time. 

Though most of what you said was true and relevant, if the DayZ Devs do decide to remove the 'Eye-Zoom', it simply won't matter anymore. Besides that, the 'Eye-Zoom' is, again, not a realistic feature in the way that it works exactly like a Binocular/Scope. 

Eye focusing is more like a Camera, like you said, but blurring the outer rims and clearing the center (As I said).

Adding to this that DayZ is a game and there just simply is not a way to replicate real life inside a game. - DayZ is pretty damn close, and if they have to remove this feature to allow better spatial rendering, It's understandable. 

Everyone will be on the same playing field with this change, so it's really not bothersome, to me. -- Like I said at first, I'm likely a minority For this change. 

But I do see potentially more caution in players as they can't eagle-eye/VATS to see if someone is way over there precisely xD 

[St. Jimmy 1631]

46 minutes ago, Guy Smiley said:

If you have a small monitor don't play at 1080p.  I've got a 15" screen on my laptop and use 1600x900 to play my games.  People need to stop making excuses for terrible gameplay mechanics

Umm what? Resolution only increases pixel in the same amount of space. There is no difference in model size on your screen between 720p and 1080p.

Changing resolution doesn't have anything to do with fov. They are separate things.

[Guy Smiley 534]

Just now, St. Jimmy said:

Umm what? Resolution only increases pixel in the same amount of space. There is no difference in model size on your screen between 720p and 1080p.

Changing resolution doesn't have anything to do with fov. They are separate things.

What are you smoking because I sure as hell would like some.  

[St. Jimmy 1631]

10 minutes ago, Guy Smiley said:

What are you smoking because I sure as hell would like some.  

Say one reason to not play 1080p over 900p on a 1080p monitor other than GPU can't handle the pixel count? Because I have hard time to understand your post in this topic.

Or are you meaning that smaller monitor guy should play higher resolution like 4K? Your post wasn't clear about that.

Edited August 30, 2017 by St. Jimmy

[Guy Smiley 534]

3 minutes ago, St. Jimmy said:

Say one reason to not play 1080p over 900p on a 1080p monitor other than GPU can't handle the pixel count? Because I have hard time to understand your post in this topic.

Monitor size.  That is what I was quoting Mantasisg about.   On a 24" or larger monitor playing at 1080p you are capable of seeing objects or players at a distance easier than someone who is playing on a 15" screen at 1080p.  Hell, players have been using lower resolutions to gain a competitive edge over others due the the fact they can spot players easier at a distance when using lower resolutions.

[gannon46 788]

I say get rid of it we have scopes we have binoculars use those to see details or get closer to what you are looking at. The days of setting in a tree line a zoomin in on shit should come to an end. again we have tools that zoom and let us see things better not only would it make those things actually useful but to see the detail of what a player is carrying shouldn't be as simple as zooming in especially without the proper gear to do so. It's not logical in this game that is supposed to pride itself on realism. I'm glad the dev team do what they want I leave it to them I hope they take it out though but if they don't let's hope a modder does some of us a solid and give us a few options for servers in the future.

[Mantasisg 172]

lets use scopes to achieve realistic fov, hooray