My take on DayZ Development

[jaginun 87]

Hello!

I'm a player of DayZ who I guess would be considered a fairly veteran player. I have played since late 2011 with the Arma 2 mod and have probably played over 1000 hours of both the standalone combined with the original mod. After probably a year of Standalone development I left the game as I disagreed with the pace and direction of development. I recently started playing the game again as I heard FPS is about to be improved significantly.

To start things off positively, here are what I think has been done well in the game development so far. I believe the focus on loot spawning rates has been a good decision, and I feel with a few minor alterations the loot is fine as it is right now. I also approve of the zombie alteration, as we can all remember how bad zombies handled back in early standalone development, and believe that with a bit of work I find the current balance of quantity/quality to be brilliant in the current patch.

Here are my complaints. Firstly, and foremostly (I can't stress this enough!) I think private hives and modded servers should have been added much and much earlier. Many players are trying to pull DayZ in certain generally undesirable directions (more RPG mechanics, trading systems, excess loot and/or vehicles, which I feel the developers aren't going for) which I believe would have been completely negated if they were allowed modded servers to play their preferred version of DayZ on. Not only this, but the developers at Bohemia could have easily benefitted from the modding scene as the original DayZ mod development did, as new ideas could have been easily playtested and suggested after being tried by various mod developers.

I also disagree with the focus on basebuilding and self sustinance. Leaving the point alone that 80% of the crafting system is completely useless to most players (hunted/farmed food is harder to get than looted food, crafted weapons are trash, crafted clothes are inferior), the time spent developing these features could have been spent actually improving the game for the players who don't participate in, honestly, fringe activities, by increasing the global weapon arsenal, expanding and finally making the medical system into more than just bloodbags and bandages, or even finishing the map development and making every building both enterable and lootable. For the majority of players, getting endgame gear (military grade clothing, fireaxe, rifle of some kind, pistol with ammo, full medical supply) is a matter of as little as a couple of hours. This has barely been improved since the game launch.

Finally, I think the decision to use a heavily modified Arma 2 / Take On Helicopters was a bad choice. Again, precious development time has been wasted fixing the game due to a simply underdeveloped engine. If more time was granted to developing a fully fledged engine that cooperated with the game the developers had in mind, many months and years could have been saved by having a solid base to start from.

Overall, development has been frankly disappointing and I haven't noticed any major changes after the leave of Dean Hall. While DayZ is a great and unique game I continue to support and like to this day, the development for this game will be remembered as a thououghly lacklustre and slow one, with many flaws. I pray that the final state of the game is as great as we all hope.

Also, I hope this topic is posted in the right section. I haven't used the forums since they updated the site so I'm not entirely familiar with where things go. If not, could a mod please move the thread? Thanks!

 

 

Edited June 14, 2016 by jaginun

[blackberrygoo 1416]

I believe tbis is just a huge paragraph of regurgitated opinions, just put into a nicer package. My stance has been stated too many times about this discussion but I will say it once more In a simplified version : they DID make the engine for what they had in mind , which is why it's taking so long (they aren't just fixing the arma 2 engine ) . The next point is moot seeing how most balance is made during beta (hate to break that to most people , but it's true to typical Alpha game developments). Lastly , if you haven't noticed the dozens of new things added (not talking about items , but pure content / geography / mechanics being added that expand gameplay , immersion , fps , and so on) since dean halls departure , then you truly haven't been paying attention.

 

Thanks for making such a civil post, regardless of how previous arguments of this exact nature were always started with negativity and ignorance, but I do wish someone like Tatanko could come in here and list off EVERYTHING that has been added / changed since deans departure , but I believe that would take dayz and wouldn't be worth it considering another thread just like this one will pop up when people are bored of .60 and want more .

[jaginun 87]

15 minutes ago, blackberrygoo said:

I believe tbis is just a huge paragraph of regurgitated opinions, just put into a nicer package

At this point most suggestions are regurgitated opinions. Discussion on this forum hasn't exactly progressed since the mod days. Partially due to a slow development, partially due to a dead community, you can all decide that for yourself.

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The next point is moot seeing how most balance is made during beta (hate to break that to most people , but it's true to typical Alpha game developments)

I wouldn't agree. Balance should be relegated to the beta stage of development if anything. Many games are still working out balance years post development, most of alpha development should be used to actually implement game features, mechanics and other parts of the finished game, whether they are balanced or not.

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Lastly , if you haven't noticed the dozens of new things added (not talking about items , but pure content / geography / mechanics being added that expand gameplay , immersion , fps , and so on) since dean halls departure , then you truly haven't been paying attention.

I haven't played the standalone for upwards of a year and a half, and the amount of content introduced has been frankly pathetic. The major differences I've seen are a dozen new towns introduced, a few handfuls of minor map editing, very few guns introduced and minor work done in implementing vehicles. Entire games have been developed and released in this timeframe. I find it laughable that Bohemia, a major games development company has convinced people their work has been anything but sluggish. Has the game been developed and evolved fowards? Of course. But no where near the pace that a game like this should be.

With all due respect to you and other high standing community members, the game won't be forced to progress if your attitude is a staple of those in the community. Complacency and acceptance from a niche game community are one of the major factors in the poor development of this game.

Edited June 14, 2016 by jaginun

[nl 986]

6 hours ago, jaginun said:

With all due respect to you and other high standing community members, the game won't be forced to progress if your attitude is a staple of those in the community. Complacency and acceptance from a niche game community are one of the major factors in the poor development of this game.

lol said the person who did not play for a year and a half thus not providing the developers with feedback himself, so you are actually part of the problem you describe

[Luc Tonnerre 174]

7 hours ago, blackberrygoo said:

..., but I do wish someone like Tatanko could come in here and list off EVERYTHING that has been added / changed since deans departure ,...

True, a lot has been added, but I still feel that even adding a new color to the spray cans will be some kind of major task and might break things in some unexpected areas due to a lack of proper templates (or whatever they use)

just a feeling tho

[jaginun 87]

4 hours ago, nl said:

lol said the person who did not play for a year and a half thus not providing the developers with feedback himself, so you are actually part of the problem you describe

I gave my feedback before I left, and not much of what I can say to the developers has changed. And mind your tu quoque there.

2 hours ago, Luc Tonnerre said:

True, a lot has been added, but I still feel that even adding a new color to the spray cans will be some kind of major task and might break things in some unexpected areas due to a lack of proper templates (or whatever they use)

just a feeling tho

This is what I'm talking about with the engine. New additions are notoriously buggy and unstable and it feels like every update has to break the limits of the engines normal use to be able to progress the game. If they made provisions for templates or whatever is used before game development itself started, DayZ's development would be much speedier.

Edited June 14, 2016 by jaginun

[Luc Tonnerre 174]

31 minutes ago, jaginun said:

I gave my feedback before I left, and not much of what I can say to the developers has changed. And mind your tu quoque there.

This is what I'm talking about with the engine. New additions are notoriously buggy and unstable and it feels like every update has to break the limits of the engines normal use to be able to progress the game. If they made provisions for templates or whatever is used before game development itself started, DayZ's development would be much speedier.

Well all I wish for is a proper roadmap and some infos about the stuff we don't actually see in game. By that I mean the stuff that's going on in the background of which the common player is not aware of. It would make things a bit easier for me to understand why stuff seems so borked.

Hopefully the new renderer turns out to be that milestone which will now allow a faster pace in development. That and the player controller should speed up progress now.

Edited June 14, 2016 by Luc Tonnerre

[Parazight 1594]

13 hours ago, jaginun said:

I think private hives and modded servers should have been added much and much earlier.

This just isn't practical at all.  The developers have been totally transparent with the on-goings of early access DayZ, including why this isn't feasible.

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80% of the crafting system is completely useless to most players ....

Where exactly are you getting all this data from?  You list the reasons behind your complaints but they're just a bunch of made up generalizations with no actual numbers, examples, or comparisons.

 

Seems like you're just impatient.

[jaginun 87]

9 minutes ago, Parazight said:

This just isn't practical at all.  The developers have been totally transparent with the on-goings of early access DayZ, including why this isn't feasible.

It was practical with the DayZ mod. I realize there are differences between the games but if the effort was put into some kind of modularity with the map and such, it would pay off in the long term.

Also, can I have the source of the unfeasibility part? I have heard no such thing, but if they have a good reason for avoiding it then I would like to see.

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Where exactly are you getting all this data from?  You list the reasons behind your complaints but they're just a bunch of made up generalizations with no actual numbers, examples, or comparisons.

I have no metrics because there are no metrics for this data, I'm purely using my opinions and predictions about a community from anecdotal evidence. However, even without solid empirical evidence I have serious doubts about anyone that suggests the majority of players find the farming/hunting mechanics useful in some major way while playing.

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Seems like you're just impatient.

I'm getting the feeling what I said about a complacent community was correct.  I challenge you to find a game with a similarly sized development studio with a comparable or even slower development speed than that of this game, that isn't plagued by the same criticism of the development speed.

Good luck finding one, because I certainly haven't.

Edited June 14, 2016 by jaginun

[nl 986]

2 hours ago, jaginun said:

I gave my feedback before I left, and not much of what I can say to the developers has changed. And mind your tu quoque there.

So you gave feedback in early stages of development but when the game was actually developed more towards it's final form you withheld your 'advice'. And now you have all kinds of criticisms about what the game has or has not become and putting blame for it on the community which you were not part of yourself for most of the development period. I just think that is interesting.

And thank you for teaching me about 'tu quoque', never heard of that one before. But yeah, I do see some hints of hypocrisy. But I also see some valid points in your opening post and I should have mentioned that before.

[jaginun 87]

Just now, nl said:

So you gave feedback in early stages of development but when the game was actually developed more towards it's final form you withheld your 'advice'. And now you have all kinds of criticisms about what the game has or has not become and putting blame for it on the community which you were not part of yourself for most of the development period. I just think that is interesting.

And thank you for teaching me about 'tu quoque', never heard of that one before. But yeah, I do see some hints of hypocrisy. But I also see some valid points in your opening post and I should have mentioned that before.

Firstly, I appreciate your civility and also do recognize avoiding your criticism, albiet hypocritical, is a fallacy in itself. I certainly don't lend myself any favours by not being here to input on the game during the last 18 months, but my point on the speed of development still stands, and it my primary point.

If I had any primary requests of the game developers at this point, it would be a development roadmap with estimated release dates for the various planned parts of the game. Transparency not only helps the community judge the speed of development but also the direction and would make suggestions etc a lot more relevant.

[galekast 70]

44 minutes ago, jaginun said:

It was practical with the DayZ mod. I realize there are differences between the games but if the effort was put into some kind of modularity with the map and such, it would pay off in the long term.

Also, can I have the source of the unfeasibility part? I have heard no such thing, but if they have a good reason for avoiding it then I would like to see.

I have no metrics because there are no metrics for this data, I'm purely using my opinions and predictions about a community from anecdotal evidence. However, even without solid empirical evidence I have serious doubts about anyone that suggests the majority of players find the farming/hunting mechanics useful in some major way while playing.

I'm getting the feeling what I said about a complacent community was correct.  I challenge you to find a game with a similarly sized development studio with a comparable or even slower development speed than that of this game, that isn't plagued by the same criticism of the development speed.

Good luck finding one, because I certainly haven't.

I would have thought the idea of the game at this stage was to keep getting date on how the vanilla game works or doesn't. Fracturing the community by allowing server owners to set their own loot tables, vehicle spawns and goodness knows what else would inhibit or probably invalidate most of the data BI gets back from those servers. Modding will come when the vanilla game is ready for it, not before. I am sure there will be plenty of servers doing exactly what you want them to do once the modding becomes available, but for now, lets all remember we are basically testing this game as BI gives it to us, we should be pushing the game as best we can in its current state, not breaking the loot economy or allowing 1000+ vehicles on servers just because that is how some people wanted the mod. Let the game develop, then when mods come, do what you like. What I would say though, is I like the idea of modders almost testing their mods for BI, giving them potential ideas to add. So while not agreeing modding should be in yet, I think allowing modders access to start making mods for the game, which BI could look at and potentially add into the vanilla product perhaps on EXP. That way, the modders learn the system and BI gets a great range of new ideas, while those of us who give the EXP servers a go could get little sneak peaks into what the modders are doing and how BI may implement certain ideas.

 

As for the hunting/farming, well it is going to be a survival game. Those mechanics will hopefully be essential to survive for a longer period of time. Obviously if you are someone who just wants to loot up on the coast and "shoot sum noobz" then you won't use it. But those of us who like to try and survive without murdering the population of a small country will utilize those options for sustainable survival. They may not be useful at the moment as canned food and drinks are still way too prevalent, but eventually when things like that are turned down a lot in regards to amounts, the hunting/farming side of things will be a lot more important. Kind of depends on your playstyle I guess. Then again, when DayZ is finished I assume it will be a hell of a lot tougher to survive than it is now and those who just want their PVP crap will head to the nearest "mega lootz and guns, 40+ barracks in Cherno, tanks and 1000+ vehicles L33T" server. Or just go back to Arma 3 Wasteland where they should be now anyways. DayZ should be a survival game first and foremost and those aspects should be pushed over any other. End game loot and whatever should take a long time to get to unless you get unbelievably lucky. Survival is the name of the game hopefully and as such, we need those mechanics in place and working so when all the KOS Cherno PVPrs move on because the game is too hard, the rest of the game will be perfectly setup for a post apocalyptic survival situation :)

 

So I guess what I am saying is, yes the development has been slow. Yes there have been some mistakes. But I am liking the mechanics and ideas they have been putting in place. With .60 we have already seen great improvements and hopefully the game will continue to develop to its final goal, and I will be enjoying it every step of the way I am sure. 

[Tigermonk 140]

all in all.. the game will take a few more years to finish.. (even after 1.0, something was mentioned by a certain person called brian hicks) that they'll support dev. of dayz for another 5 YEARS after 1.0 is released.. 
the biggest flaw the devs have made (for a very good reason) was thinking they'd force this over in a year (there are actual dev. notes of 2015 that say december 2015 final game) 
guess thats not working out that well for them.. but as far as I can see on the forums lately.. the die-hard support with the massive karma boosts are the only one's sticking up for this game

while others are slowly learning that 7-10 years of dev. is sadly what dayz will become over time.
they're trying to jam a million things into 1 year.. working on 50 things at once.. while the community is asking them for things that can be worked on non the less.. and are WAY more important than 20 new weapons or 10 sets of new clothing.

- MORE zombies
- MORE wildlife
- WORKING vehicles
- MORE FPS (solved)
- better medical system
- facial hair/time scale/aging (being worked on?)

it's time to set a priority, or a target list of what they want finished first.
apposed to the last few months 0.60 is now entering month 6 or 7, starting from when it was first mentioned until now
its been in exp. for almost 2 months (with over 200 bugs reported by the community)

so considering the slowest game dev. in history.. maybe so... but with very legit reason (if we're told to believe)
long story short:

to fix this constant issue of topic being posted with labels as: when is 0.60 going live/where is 0.60 at/how much longer
the best thing for the devs to do.. is finish what their working on now.. after they've done that..
prioritize what they want. having a full team working on 1 or 2 things.. is better than having 40 people working on 100 things. 

[BlinkingRiki182 54]

8 minutes ago, jaginun said:

Firstly, I appreciate your civility and also do recognize avoiding your criticism, albiet hypocritical, is a fallacy in itself. I certainly don't lend myself any favours by not being here to input on the game during the last 18 months, but my point on the speed of development still stands, and it my primary point.

If I had any primary requests of the game developers at this point, it would be a development roadmap with estimated release dates for the various planned parts of the game. Transparency not only helps the community judge the speed of development but also the direction and would make suggestions etc a lot more relevant.

You're making some valid criticism. The problem is that people here don't like to hear that, especially people that have 1k posts (I'm not implying anything, it's just an observation). Many of these guys are bashing anyone who has anything negative to say about DayZ's development. As I've stated many times on this forum, this is counter productive. Everybody makes mistakes, the DayZ devs are no exception. Let's discuss those mistake openly and like grown up people. We have been given roadmaps (in the past) that haven't even come close to completion. Don't see anything wrong addressing that.