[Opinion] The Value of Base Building?

[[DGN] Johnny 115]

So I'm curious what the communities thoughts are on the value of building a base in the future. Obviously we have a loose understanding of the concept in application, plenty of games out there sport some sort of base building concept, and most everyone that has dealt with it, also had dealt with how it dosent really sync with the value of a real world base, when put into a virtual format.

ATM, we're able to use a few different movable storage containers from living out of barrels, tents, car tents, and military tents. Each having their own value, rarity, and ease to find. To being modest and living out of protector cases (I've seen it lol ^.^)). There is also the ability to live out of a built dwelling like log cabins with limited space, and are able to "lock" doors. (Although doors are currently badly bugged)

But obviously we're dreaming bigger here.

 

All that said, all the glimmer and sound goodness aside, what is our thoughts on the real value of this direction? Will this be more aesthetic than function, what sort of schemes and strategies would you like to try? What sort of functions do you want to be able to do?

[gordonfreemantr 8]

Barricading the base,only destructable with certain weapons such as rpg etc. but it shouldnt take 1 or 2 shot to get in.

It should be maybe 4-5 or more rpg's to take down the wall and they should be rare to find. 

Lockable cabinets with limited slots not that much. 

Bigger clans bigger bases, will need more players to team up to raid these type of bases.

Food spawns such as canned foods,rice etc should be more and more limited,or maybe completely removed, so players can forced to set up camp and forced to farming and hunting, high number of op zombies at towns making it difficult to get inside town on your own, even water pumps can be closed and players can forced to drink from ponds and rivers with a thread of cholera,so players should use water purification tablets so they can become life savers. All these can force players for base building and farming and survive in the wilderness instead of pvp in Elektro and Cherno,it may also help players to team up against harsh wilderness hunger and hydration. 

 

[Whyherro123 2283]

Ideally, and "realistically", the building of "bases" would, in turn, bring about the "return of civilization" to the world Day Z takes place in. When you are starving, cold, and afraid for your life, you tend to not think too far in to the future. " I need food NOW, I need to get in from the cold NOW, I need to move away from these zombies NOW", etc etc etc.

By building bases, you provide a hardpoint for "civilization" to return. By offering safety, you provide a place for survivors to come, to trade, and eventually, settle in. Around a clans base, you might have farms spring up, providing food in return for protection, from other clans and from zombies. Traders move between strongholds, trading goods. Strongholds start to produce their own goods (bullets, medicine, fuel, etc), to trade with these traders. Eventually, different strongholds band together for mutual defense, or under the fist of a powerful leader, and a "nation" is born.

What does that sound like? Neofeudalism, probably the most likely form of government post-apocalypse.

Of course, it is almost infinitely unlikely that Day Z will progress the way I described above, for two reasons: there is never going to be any actual "scarcity of loot", and people absofuckinglutely refuse to behave in even a slightly-realistic fashion.

1) In Day Z, there is never going to be loot scarcity, not like there would be in "real life". In real life, as soon as "civilization" shat the bed, the days of having fuel, medication, bullets and canned food would be numbered. All of those things essentially require international levels of trade and infrastructure. Vehicle parts don't just pop into existence in sheds, fuel, lubricants and other vital fluids require heavy refining, modern cased cartridges require parts from multiple continents, etc.

In Day Z, that is never going to be a thing. Can't find vehicle parts? SERVER HOP. Can't find bullets, or even the gun you want? SERVER HOP. Don't like the server you are on? SERVER HOP. Kills any sense of "realism" or "community" this game has. 

Asides from server-hopping shennagians, I just plain don't see Day Z getting all that much more "difficult", loot-wise. Several patches ago, there were actual problems with spawns ( Yes, I know it was bugged. I KNOW), meaning things like food and bullets were actually, you know, kinda difficult to find. Not impossible, just definitely rarer than they were now.

The forums fucking exploded, with threads filled with whining about WEHERS MY LUT, NO FUD GAEM SUKS, shit like that. The devs rewound the patch so fast, my head spun. This is why we can't have nice things.

Amusingly, those patches were probably the most fun I've ever had playing Day Z. C'est la vie.

2) Player behavior.

Much like EVERYTHING ELSE ON THE INTERNET, the Day Z player base uses the game as a channel for their inner socio/psycopathy. There is no, NONE ZILCH NADA NO SIR, even-kinda-sorta "realistic" behavior from players in this game. Myself included, because at this point I just don't give a shit, burnt out as I am. Players will run up to you and punch you out for no reason. Players will get themselves killed when captured, or even refuse to be captured, instead of submitting and saving their lives. Players doing the capturing will kill players off-hand, instead of holding them hostage. WHen two players meet randomly, chances are they will try to kill each other, instead of trying to talk, or just even avoiding each other.

In "real life", what are you more likely to do: submit to a bandit, in case they just (overwhelmingly likely) just take your stuff, or antagonize them so they kill you? Or, on the flip-side, as a bandit are you going to waste a bullet on that guy you just robbed? You just took everything, why waste the very-valuable bullet? Upon coming up to a clan stronghold, well-guarded and secure, what would you do: be grateful for the chance to sleep without being afraid, maybe even work for them, or try to sneak into their base for shits and giggles?

So on and so forth.

Realistically, a survivor being offered the chance to work around a clan stronghold, for food, for pay, for just a safe place to sleep at night, would be fucking ecstatic. In Day Z, the "survivor" is likely just going to try to gank some gear when the clan all logs off. Conversely, it would be in that clans best interest not to fucking murder everyone that comes near their base, so they could actually attract workers and traders. In Day Z....... yeah, no, you are gonna die.

So, I am kinda torn on basebuilding. On one hand, I want it, for the reasons I outlined in the first part of my post, and because it would be really weird to not have it. On the other hand, I kinda don't really care, because it is likely not going to be what I hope.

Don't forget, all of this is coming from the person who's "ideal Day Z" would be one where loot just doesn't respawn.Eventually, you are gonna have to make your own stuff, or go without. Clans would be in the best position to profit from, and spur onwards, the development of "civilization".

[Just Caused 423]

As long as I can keep my legs un-broken while entering inside my base or dying from closing door inside base, I'm looking foward to see bases.

[sneakydude 480]

9 hours ago, [DGN] Johnny said:

So I'm curious what the communities thoughts are on the value of building a base in the future. Obviously we have a loose understanding of the concept in application, plenty of games out there sport some sort of base building concept, and most everyone that has dealt with it, also had dealt with how it dosent really sync with the value of a real world base, when put into a virtual format.

ATM, we're able to use a few different movable storage containers from living out of barrels, tents, car tents, and military tents. Each having their own value, rarity, and ease to find. To being modest and living out of protector cases (I've seen it lol ^.^)). There is also the ability to live out of a built dwelling like log cabins with limited space, and are able to "lock" doors. (Although doors are currently badly bugged)

But obviously we're dreaming bigger here.

 

All that said, all the glimmer and sound goodness aside, what is our thoughts on the real value of this direction? Will this be more aesthetic than function, what sort of schemes and strategies would you like to try? What sort of functions do you want to be able to do?

Thanks, glad you showed us this. I haven't seen this video before. It would be great if the PR people would start linking things so we as fans can review these videos too. Oh wait reddit has it i bet or twitter.

I think it is very important now to have fresh ideas on base building. As hoarders and survivors we want to build things in games now. Sandbox games appear to be all about this. I believe that it is one of the most adventurous skills to "Time sync" any game today. We tend to blow right past the content boring us out too quickly.

It also is a place we can defend and go to hoard all of our supplies to craft stuff. Crafting will be very important to us.

It will also make for an exciting pvp raid game. It is how we perceive the server at the time. I doubt i would want to base build on any Public server, as offline base raiding will be a way for grieving squeakers and cheaters win.

 

Edited February 26, 2016 by sneakydude

[Deathlove 2280]

I could give a rats ass about base building until ppl change there ways of playing in game. From a PVP fuck fest to an actual survival game. The only thing bases are going to do at the moment is be another way to grief players.

I also don't see the point of building a base ether that your just going to get all your shit stolen from anyways in the next few hours. I can see where Hicks is coming from on every base having a way to get in somehow. But are ppl really going to spend HOURS building something that some fuckface is going to bust into within less time to jack all your shit? The base does not even have to be on an airfield for ppl to find it lol.

[igor-vk 909]

You will have to look for servers with mature players and rules

[Deathlove 2280]

Just now, igor-vk said:

You will have to look for servers with mature players and rules

With how "mature" quite a few players are right now i don't see this happening. The only way ill probably be able to even enjoy this is to have a private locked server because we all know it only takes a few ppl to make this a very rotten experience.

[igor-vk 909]

Well, it cant be all easy in apocalypse. There are allways assholes. It gives a little spice to game

[Deathlove 2280]

Just now, igor-vk said:

Well, it cant be all easy in apocalypse. There are allways assholes. It gives a little spice to game

Yeah but again i bring back to the point of why make a base thats going to take you hours if its going to get torn down and ransacked in less time? The more i think about it the more i just see it as a waste of time. I can handle things being hard but the amount of trolls even on well behaved servers outpaces ppl that want to play the game right.

[igor-vk 909]

Then you dont build big base. Then you make stash in middle of woods.

I hope that base builing will be detailed and "realistic" (not like Epoch9.

[Zimorak 50]

My ultimate base: 
This is the most they should honestly go towards base building IMO. Put down a dang tent, and freaking camp overnight or for however long you're able to survive there.

[Deathlove 2280]

4 minutes ago, igor-vk said:

Then you dont build big base. Then you make stash in middle of woods.

I hope that base builing will be detailed and "realistic" (not like Epoch9.

Im ok with building smaller bases however the woods need a major overhaul visually as foliage is almost none existent from a distance. This is still a big problem for concealing bases.

[gordonfreemantr 8]

Imagine when helicopters are in, it will take half n hour to fly over all the woods and spot most camps on server, this needs to be addressed as well. So what do we do? heat seeking AA anti air misilles even working when we are offline ?! :D 

[Whyherro123 2283]

1 hour ago, Zimorak said:

My ultimate base: 
This is the most they should honestly go towards base building IMO. Put down a dang tent, and freaking camp overnight or for however long you're able to survive there.

Meh. Coming from someone that has lived in a "wall tent" very similar to the one in-game for a week (in the middle of a New England summer).... living out of one for more than a few days would blow massive donkey dick.

I've lived in something similar to the video below for 2 weeks, in the middle of a New England winter. Much more comfortable.

Not to mention that you aren't going to want to be a nomad forever.

[[Outcasts]Massacre 121]

The only reason we ( that is my clan ) build bases anywhere is for there strategic value. Towers for overwatch, a way to dominate trade or commonly traveled paths. A place to take shelter in and fall back upon while drawing the enemy in. The storage thing doesnt really come into it since most of our important gear is stored on a offline character on a second account.

[Whyherro123 2283]

43 minutes ago, [Outcasts]Massacre said:

The only reason we ( that is my clan ) build bases anywhere is for there strategic value. Towers for overwatch, a way to dominate trade or commonly traveled paths. A place to take shelter in and fall back upon while drawing the enemy in. The storage thing doesnt really come into it since most of our important gear is stored on a offline character on a second account.

See? This is why we can't have nice things.

You do realize that by holding gear on an offline character, you are basically subverting the "whole point" of the loot system?

BY hiding it in a base, it still remains part of the "system", and can be stolen by anyone, giving people a fair chance to actually, you know, experience the game. By holding onto it in the nether of the internet, you are preventing that.

[[DGN] Johnny 115]

6 hours ago, igor-vk said:

You will have to look for servers with mature players and rules

A good clan or group definitely changes the experience of DayZ considerably.

 

5 hours ago, gordonfreemantr said:

Imagine when helicopters are in, it will take half n hour to fly over all the woods and spot most camps on server, this needs to be addressed as well. So what do we do? heat seeking AA anti air misilles even working when we are offline ?! :D 

I know they brought up the idea of underground storage, and likely have a plan for the rendering tree branch issue before implementing the little bird. It is a good point once again though, these non-minimalist structures although pretty, cost considerably in the size of your footprint without really adding too much strategic value.

I'm curious if predators and hordes however will change this. Walls and wire becoming a a ton more valuable, if there's a very good chance 10 or 12 infected are gonna stroll into your camp while you're organizing your personal stuff. :O

 

3 hours ago, [Outcasts]Massacre said:

The only reason we ( that is my clan ) build bases anywhere is for there strategic value. Towers for overwatch, a way to dominate trade or commonly traveled paths. A place to take shelter in and fall back upon while drawing the enemy in. The storage thing doesnt really come into it since most of our important gear is stored on a offline character on a second account.

"Live off your back" motto. It's definitely got a long history of success. Never went as far as multiple characters, but in our evolution we definitely passed that stage. I think the big issue comes when you just have too many assets to reasonably even consider that method aside from personal favorites. Some time ago [DGN] hit a stash of nearly 9 Military tents, 2 car tents, and on the upper end of 30 barrels. Full of quality military and helicopter loot. And it's moments like that, in which you really start to hit that glass ceiling with that method, IMO. 

6 hours ago, igor-vk said:

Then you dont build big base. Then you make stash in middle of woods.

I hope that base builing will be detailed and "realistic" (not like Epoch9.

Something was said about keeping to the aesthetic of DayZ, having realistic structural limitations and what not. Hoping it translates well to the game as well.

 

[igor-vk 909]

I wish base building will be something like on that concept art. Wooden walls or sandbags (ofcourse every sandbag has to be filled manualy), few tents, small shed and simple watch towers.

[Funkmaster Rick 373]

The value of base building is roughly equal to the amount of protection it affords you and your stuff. When one considers how easy it currently is to see tents and barrels from distance, I'd say that base building would actually result in a negative value. Needs more useful foliage, the kind you can't turn off in your game settings.

EDIT: Upon consideration, base building also has some meagre value as a fun activity in and of itself. One thing I failed to consider is that a base, in a lot of ways, represents a community, which can definitely be its own hefty reward - assuming it doesn't attract too many DayZ psychopaths. =3

Edited February 28, 2016 by Funkmaster Rick

[emuthreat 2837]

I would say that the value of base building is directly proportional to the proper function of the persistence mechanics.  For instance, I recently lost about half of my bases to the 45 day tent and barrel cleanup this patch.  While I knew about the cleanup process, I was mistakenly under the impression that "directly interacting" with the items would reset their cleanup timers.  In this case "direct interaction" meant completely emptying out and resetting each tent and barrel.  I was under the impression that it merely meant moving any item in that container's inventory matrix.

So with regards to future plans for a certain area to be somehow considered a base, and all storage containers within to be recognized as being 'the base' and being subject to the same 7 day latency period before cleanup occurs, I foresee many errors.  Is there a certain item that will be the essence of a base, like an artifact that magically protects all items nearby from being cleaned up by CLE?  Is there a minimum number of tents or barrels that one would have to assemble in one place within a week, to establish that camp as a persistent base?  What, exactly, must one do to maintain the persistence of their base(s)?

Firstly, by what means will the game decide what a base is?  Will this concept be communicated clearly to the players, or will we be learning what it means to be a 'base' the hard way?  Will any one player be allowed to establish more than one base; and what complications will be caused by sharing bases?  If a base is established by setting up a tent or barrel in an area, will that area have a limited radius; meaning that if you set up a few car tents as the core of the base, but then set up a few military tents a hundred feet away, that some of those military tents may accidentally fall outside this radius of "baseness" and disappear after 7 days?  If I set up a main base in a pretty secure location, but then go to establish a satellite base to which I plan to move some of the hoarded gear for easier access from the coast, will the establishment of the new base revoke the quality of "baseness" that was previously held by the main base, thus causing the despawn of the main base after 7 days?

What makes 7 days the right amount of time to despawn a base?  If I were to take work as a wildland firefighter--and then have two weeks at a time on the job, and a few days off in between--should I not play DayZ because all of my progress will be lost after the first week in which I cannot interact with my bases?  Family emergencies, severe weather conditions, hardware failures, and any number of other regularly occurring conditions over which the player has no control, will result in the loss of all persistent progress.  This would obviously be an undesirable situation for most players, though it would mostly affect lone players; this would likely cause disproportionate loss to the newer players.

 

I'm super stoked to see the newer base building elements com into play, but I am certain that there will be massive issues at first; as there has been with each new iteration of persistence, and persistent objects.  Hopefully we will see that survivalist scrum happen at some point, and many of these base building and persistence issues can be better explored.

 

Edit: @Funkmaster Rick, tents are only visible from less than 300 meters away.  Proper base location for me has always meant terrain, and proximity to areas of interest or common travel routes, with foliage as a last consideration.  I have stashed barrels in bushes all around the airfield on a mid-pop server on .58, and lost them to cleanup before I ever once noticed something missing.  Larger bases will definitely need to be secure to a certain point--I'm thinking one guy with an ax, pitchfork, and shovel, should be able to take out a concertainer in a couple of minutes; though alone, he may have to abandon those three tools to make room to carry away the goods.

And yeah, foliage needs to be constant server-wide.  This may require another layer of server labeling, so I'm not sure how well this problem can be addressed.  I can't remember which one it is right now, but AA or Alpha-To makes a huge difference; like the difference between "you'd have to tab-open to see it', and 200 meter visibility.

Edited February 28, 2016 by emuthreat

[[Outcasts]Massacre 121]

On 27-2-2016 at 1:23 AM, Whyherro123 said:

See? This is why we can't have nice things.

You do realize that by holding gear on an offline character, you are basically subverting the "whole point" of the loot system?

BY hiding it in a base, it still remains part of the "system", and can be stolen by anyone, giving people a fair chance to actually, you know, experience the game. By holding onto it in the nether of the internet, you are preventing that.

Wrong. Now the loot we hold respawns hence nobody is influenced by it.

[[Outcasts]Massacre 121]

On 27-2-2016 at 4:11 AM, [DGN] Johnny said:

"Live off your back" motto. It's definitely got a long history of success. Never went as far as multiple characters, but in our evolution we definitely passed that stage. I think the big issue comes when you just have too many assets to reasonably even consider that method aside from personal favorites. Some time ago [DGN] hit a stash of nearly 9 Military tents, 2 car tents, and on the upper end of 30 barrels. Full of quality military and helicopter loot. And it's moments like that, in which you really start to hit that glass ceiling with that method, IMO. 

 

 

Correct its one of the reasons we only store ammo and scopes that way. Oh, and can openers ;-)

[Tigermonk 140]

On 26-2-2016 at 0:55 PM, Whyherro123 said:

Ideally, and "realistically", the building of "bases" would, in turn, bring about the "return of civilization" to the world Day Z takes place in. When you are starving, cold, and afraid for your life, you tend to not think too far in to the future. " I need food NOW, I need to get in from the cold NOW, I need to move away from these zombies NOW", etc etc etc.

By building bases, you provide a hardpoint for "civilization" to return. By offering safety, you provide a place for survivors to come, to trade, and eventually, settle in. Around a clans base, you might have farms spring up, providing food in return for protection, from other clans and from zombies. Traders move between strongholds, trading goods. Strongholds start to produce their own goods (bullets, medicine, fuel, etc), to trade with these traders. Eventually, different strongholds band together for mutual defense, or under the fist of a powerful leader, and a "nation" is born.

What does that sound like? Neofeudalism, probably the most likely form of government post-apocalypse.

Of course, it is almost infinitely unlikely that Day Z will progress the way I described above, for two reasons: there is never going to be any actual "scarcity of loot", and people absofuckinglutely refuse to behave in even a slightly-realistic fashion.

1) In Day Z, there is never going to be loot scarcity, not like there would be in "real life". In real life, as soon as "civilization" shat the bed, the days of having fuel, medication, bullets and canned food would be numbered. All of those things essentially require international levels of trade and infrastructure. Vehicle parts don't just pop into existence in sheds, fuel, lubricants and other vital fluids require heavy refining, modern cased cartridges require parts from multiple continents, etc.

In Day Z, that is never going to be a thing. Can't find vehicle parts? SERVER HOP. Can't find bullets, or even the gun you want? SERVER HOP. Don't like the server you are on? SERVER HOP. Kills any sense of "realism" or "community" this game has. 

Asides from server-hopping shennagians, I just plain don't see Day Z getting all that much more "difficult", loot-wise. Several patches ago, there were actual problems with spawns ( Yes, I know it was bugged. I KNOW), meaning things like food and bullets were actually, you know, kinda difficult to find. Not impossible, just definitely rarer than they were now.

The forums fucking exploded, with threads filled with whining about WEHERS MY LUT, NO FUD GAEM SUKS, shit like that. The devs rewound the patch so fast, my head spun. This is why we can't have nice things.

Amusingly, those patches were probably the most fun I've ever had playing Day Z. C'est la vie.

2) Player behavior.

Much like EVERYTHING ELSE ON THE INTERNET, the Day Z player base uses the game as a channel for their inner socio/psycopathy. There is no, NONE ZILCH NADA NO SIR, even-kinda-sorta "realistic" behavior from players in this game. Myself included, because at this point I just don't give a shit, burnt out as I am. Players will run up to you and punch you out for no reason. Players will get themselves killed when captured, or even refuse to be captured, instead of submitting and saving their lives. Players doing the capturing will kill players off-hand, instead of holding them hostage. WHen two players meet randomly, chances are they will try to kill each other, instead of trying to talk, or just even avoiding each other.

In "real life", what are you more likely to do: submit to a bandit, in case they just (overwhelmingly likely) just take your stuff, or antagonize them so they kill you? Or, on the flip-side, as a bandit are you going to waste a bullet on that guy you just robbed? You just took everything, why waste the very-valuable bullet? Upon coming up to a clan stronghold, well-guarded and secure, what would you do: be grateful for the chance to sleep without being afraid, maybe even work for them, or try to sneak into their base for shits and giggles?

So on and so forth.

Realistically, a survivor being offered the chance to work around a clan stronghold, for food, for pay, for just a safe place to sleep at night, would be fucking ecstatic. In Day Z, the "survivor" is likely just going to try to gank some gear when the clan all logs off. Conversely, it would be in that clans best interest not to fucking murder everyone that comes near their base, so they could actually attract workers and traders. In Day Z....... yeah, no, you are gonna die.

So, I am kinda torn on basebuilding. On one hand, I want it, for the reasons I outlined in the first part of my post, and because it would be really weird to not have it. On the other hand, I kinda don't really care, because it is likely not going to be what I hope.

Don't forget, all of this is coming from the person who's "ideal Day Z" would be one where loot just doesn't respawn.Eventually, you are gonna have to make your own stuff, or go without. Clans would be in the best position to profit from, and spur onwards, the development of "civilization".

like you said above numerous times. 'dayz can NEVER be realistic' nope it can NEVER be... I've played on RP server where realism is god/king/queen  still some people are just plain retards.. (throws flashbang in ur face, breaks ur legs...) then goes: what just happend? that wasn't me... MEH!! *wrong!*

I like the idea of a base with 10 people you know in real life.. so if one decided to play: screw shit up because dayz!' you can punch him/her in the mouth the next time you see that person... in dayz that is very unlikely.. 
so building bases.. *yay* in a dayz senario/game/player base.. meh doubt that will ever work..
since every player with half a brain uses dayz map on his second screen.. or has 800 hours of dayz gameplay on steam so knows the map like the back of his hand...
so what's the objective list? in true dayz fashion?

-  find water
- find food
- find M4/mosin/sks/SVD/AK etc.
- find x amount of mags
- find shitload of bullets
- find full military gear/backpack
- kill as much people as you can because shits and giggles..

so building bases/playing like there is dayz civ,? not in million years on about 99% of the servers. 

and now I hear all of you going: right on man.. but aren't you being overly stereotypical with your list..

no sadly I am not.. I've played on the falcon RP Dayz server. i've met numerous people in 5 months... what is the most common character story heard across the server.
(ex-) military personal.. trained army sniper.. etc. etc. etc. so that explains why he/she knows where this and this and this army base is.. thus having the above list as gear. etc. etc.

dayz realism? NOPE :D sadly.. not going to happen in a million years.. 'call of dayZ' is still going to have the upper hand in this one

Edited February 28, 2016 by Tigermonk

[emuthreat 2837]

On 2/26/2016 at 0:48 PM, Zimorak said:

My ultimate base: 
This is the most they should honestly go towards base building IMO. Put down a dang tent, and freaking camp overnight or for however long you're able to survive there.

I have found and raided many bases in that exact location, (053,040).  It is not a good, or clever, place to put a base.  I can think of 4 better places, within the same ~800m radius from the airfield--places not readily visible from a road and a well.

1 hour ago, [Outcasts]Massacre said:

Correct its one of the reasons we only store ammo and scopes that way. Oh, and can openers ;-)

Not good enough to play game.  Buys a second copy as an offline loot locker.  Comes onto forums acting like something he say carries any weight at all, after outing himself as a cheater.  Priceless.